A shipyard is basically just composed of spacedocks, skilled workers and raw materials (the latter only when EP are "applied" to build a ship). These are the same resources that are needed for repairs and conversions. Thus it might be interesting to let a player use their shipyard for other purposes.

There are two options (in addition to building a ship or just not using the slot).

A player can replace a ship on the construction schedule with a conversion (the EP for building the replaced ship are not paid). The ship must be at the shipyard. The conversion must be on a ship with the same base hull (conversions that change the base hull type must be done in the slot of the resulting ships). This can be a minor or major conversion, but must be within all applicable conversion limits. The conversion cost must still be paid.

A player can replace a ship on the construction schedule with the repair of any ship with the same base hull. The ship must be at the shipyard. This repair is addition to any performed by bases or other units colocated at shipyard. The repair cost must still be paid (but not the cost to built the replaced ship). This can only be used for regular repairs, not CEDS repairs or "Repair ship" repairs (the spacedock needs to be scheduled somewhat in advance).

Both abilities can only be used with standard ship builds. Substitutions cannot be used to change the base hull type of the build slot.

I really don't have an idea for how balanced this is (I deliberately limited the Lyran trimaran conversions to avoid giving them a massive benifit, I think I also limited the Gorn ability to do similar class upgrades). I'm also not sure anyone would use it more than a couple of times, since it requires giving up ship production and having the cash for conversions or repairs.

By Jonathan Biggar (Jonb) on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 03:37 pm: Edit

The conversion thing might make sense, but why would anyone give up a hull build to repair another hull of the same base *AND* pay the repair cost? Wouldn't it pretty much always be better and cheaper just to build the new construction and defer the repair?

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit

"Wouldn't it pretty much always be better and cheaper just to build the new construction and defer the repair?"

Because sometimes, rarely, it wouldn't.

Consider: Your capital is surrounded, your money supply is toast, your repair facility is reduced to the SB only, and you have a back up of cripples that will still be around when your capital falls. You have 4 CW production slots, but only 6 ep (after the SB did repairs), enough to build one CW with some change left over. You instead use the 6 ep to repair 4 more CW in the 4 build slots, skipping the build.

Pretty rare, yes, but in a pinch those 3 extra hulls could make a difference.

And after all, it seems reasonable that it could be done, even if it the actual circumstance for it never arises. That is basis enough for me to support this rule.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, June 28, 2004 - 11:03 am: Edit

As for the additional conversions, I'm not sure if I like it, but you did limit the conversions to their normal limits (only 2 drone ships per turn, only 2 maulers, so many carriers, and so on), so I guess it's not a big problem. I could see a race low on money cancelling their future heavy cruiser builds and then convering one CA to CC per turn per slipway. I don't see a big problem with that, I guess, and as with all good game options, it is debatable on which is better to do (8 ep for an additional CA hull, or 4 CA/CC conversions).

Overall, David, Kudos for original thinking!

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 11:40 pm: Edit

You know I agree with Kevin thats a nice idea David.

By jason murdoch (Jmurdoch) on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Having seen empty dry docks at one time of the year then a que of ships wanting to use said dry dock later on in the year this suggestion makes a lot of sense. Atlhouh I can see the hyrdan guilds kicking up a fuss "I build ships, next door does repairs" The artisans & construction slips exist all year round. If they are not building they could be repairing
The only complicating issue I can see is the Starbase FF production. If we are simulating the drydock capacity then how can you have all the repair points and a FF build on the same production phase. Or a FF and three points of conversions

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Starbase FF production doesn't strike me as a problem, for the SB you burn a build slot (just as using the SB to build an FF would) and repair or convert one extra FF instead. Not really a big problem.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 06:55 pm: Edit

The designer finds merit in this proposal.

By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 07:03 pm: Edit

If I may I humbly agree with SVC on this proposal.

By Matthew Potter (Neonpico) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 08:45 pm: Edit

Wow.. nine years before an official response? whew! You guys *must* be backed up....

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 09:00 pm: Edit

There are too many proposals for me to read. I rely on the staff to bring to my attention things that are urgent.

I stumbled into this one by accident when doing the proposals page for CL49. Wish we had done this in F&E2KX but maybe in F&E2KXV.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Maybe this makes the CL55 in 2021 and "fingers crossed" F&E2022?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 11:15 pm: Edit

I dunno, I'm looking for stuff for CL54.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 10:13 am: Edit

I've been using this for years now and it works really nice. Not often used, but later in the game it becomes more prevalent.

I've been counting the conversions done at the shipyard as counting towards the substitution limits.

Also, far more controversial, I've been experimenting with the idea that repairs done at the shipyard are FREE of charge. This works wonders if you're forced into last line of defense mentality (economy gone, capital surrounded, desperate to get every ship you can back into the fight), but it's a terrible idea to just go for free repairs by sacrificing your build schedule turn after turn.

Not sure whether I'll continue this last idea, but so far it hasn't broken the game. It does take a bit of the magic out of carriers - free fighter replacement or free repairs, it's all the same.

But even if I cancel the last idea, the main two benefits (conversion or repair in place of new construction) are a definite keeper in my games.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 11:30 am: Edit

I am going to put it into the CL54 draft (no free repairs) and let the staff decide if they want it or not.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 08:04 pm: Edit

SVC:

Do you want me to write up the rule and staff it?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, August 11, 2020 - 11:08 pm: Edit

I will send it to you, Chuck, after I get it formatted, but feel free to be ready.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 05:05 pm: Edit

(4SY.0) ADDED SHIPYARD FUNCTIONS

A shipyard is a collection of space docks, skilled workers, and supply chains. These are the resources needed to build new ships, but the same resources can repair or convert existing ships. Using this rule, players can use their shipyards more fully, although at a serious cost in lost production.
Based on a proposal by David Kass.

(4SY.1) CONVERSIONS IN LIEU OF CONSTRUCTION

A player can replace a ship on the construction schedule with a conversion of a ship of that type into a variant of the same base hull type. The cost of the original production is not paid, but the cost of the conversion is paid. Substitutions cannot be used to change the base hull type of the slipway (production slot).
This can be a major or minor conversion, but is still within the overall limits of a specific type of conversion, such as the limit on carriers or drone ships.
The ship to be converted must be in the shipyard hex at the start of the Production Phase for this to be done. Funds must be available to pay the cost. The cost of the original production is not paid, but the cost of the repair is paid.
A ship could be converted into a larger ship (e.g., a war cruiser into a new heavy cruiser) or a variant of the larger ship, but this must be done in the slipway (production slot) of the larger ship.
Example: Converting a CW into a CWS could be done in a CW slipway. Converting a CW into an NCS takes an NCA slipway.

(4SY.2) REPAIR OF A SHIP IN LIEU OF CONSTRUCTION

A player can replace a ship on the construction schedule with the repair of a cripped ship of that same base hull type. The cost of the original production is not paid, but the cost of the repair is paid. Substitutions cannot be used to change the base hull type of the slipway (production slot).
This repair is addition to any performed by bases or other units colocated at shipyard. The shipyard doesn’t use “repair points” as a limit; the limit is the number of slipways available.
The crippled ship must be in the hex of the shipyard, and funds must be available to pay the cost.
Example: Repairing a crippled CW replaces the construction of a new CW.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 05:16 pm: Edit

FEDS fully supports this proposed rule.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Copy/paste error?

In (4SY.1) "The cost of the original production is not paid, but the cost of the repair is paid."

I believe that since the section is addressing conversions, the word "repair" should be substituted with "conversion". RATIONALE: (4SY.2) is the section that deals with repairs.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Comment on Rule 4SY.1. Suggest deleting the last sentence as redundant in view of the second sentence in 4SY.1, and the fact that the last sentence in rule 4SY.1 also appears as the second sentence of rule 4SY.2. TDF 8/13/20.

Comment on Rule 4SY.2. In the first sentence, the word "crippled" is mispelled as "cripped". TDF 8/13/20.

Comment on 4SY.0: Suggest adding rule 4SY.3, which combines the two acts (i.e., conversion during repair). Suggested language:

“A player can replace a ship on the construction schedule with a combined conversion and repair of a ship of that type into a variant of the same base hull type. The cost of the original production is not paid, but the cost of the conversion and repair is paid. The cost of the conversion may be reduced by 1 EP if the conditions of a conversion during repair (425.20) have been met. The overall cost is the cost of repair plus the net conversion cost. Substitutions cannot be used to change the base hull type of the slipway (production slot).
This can be a major or minor conversion, but is still within the overall limits of a specific type of conversion, such as the limit on carriers or drone ships.
The ship to be converted must be in the shipyard hex at the start of the Production Phase for this to be done. Funds must be available to pay the cost.
A ship could be repaired and converted into a larger ship (e.g., a war cruiser into a new heavy cruiser) or a variant of the larger ship, but this must be done in the slipway (production slot) of the larger ship.
Example: Repairing and converting a crippled CW into an uncrippled CWS could be done in a CW slipway. Repairing and converting a crippled CW into an uncrippled NCS takes an NCA slipway.


TDF 8/13/20

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 05:49 pm: Edit

As an aside, I also think this is a great idea.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 05:55 pm: Edit

(Apologies if my commentary formatting was incorrect. I haven't made these sort of posts before)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Note that a slipway might be used on a smaller ship if the smaller ship is the basis for the larger one, ie CW/NCA or FF/DW
[In the Lyran case - CA/DN, CL/BC, and DD/CW/NCA]

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, August 13, 2020 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Might it be worth considering a rule option which allows a given empire to place a ship in a certain slipway and to pay off its conversion and/or repair costs over multiple turns?

Historically-speaking, it's noted here that the Romulans were obliged to place two of their Condors into "multi-year conversion projects": Senator at Romulus, and Leviathan (initially) at Remus. By that stage of the war, building new dreadnought hulls was beyond their economic capabilities, even before the catastrophe at Remus unfolded. "Merely" using their DN slipways to repair and/or convert pre-existing hulls seems to have been a task they struggled to pay for all at once.

Actually, it should be noted that work on Leviathan was incomplete by the time the hull was towed out of the Remus system for safe keeping. In that instance, would the ship "keep" the work total which had been done on it at Remus once work later resumes at Romulus, or would they have to start over from scratch?