Archive through August 06, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through August 06, 2020
In fact, I do agree with Richard's post, but Paul doesn't, and that sentence appears to be the reason.
WJ:
The rule reads:
Quote:(604.152) This Limited Partner status ends on Turn #28 (due to Seltorian‡ arrival) and all Tholian ships must be back inside Tholian space by the end of this turn or the Alliance loses ten EPs per Tholian ship outside of Tholian territory per turn until this is done...
WJ asked: "For example, if they are on a Klingon planet, would the Klingons have to fight them in order to regain control of the planet?"
First the rule reads "SHIPS" not units and as we all know PDUs and their fighter are not SHIPS. So, unless overruled by ADB, if the Coalition wants to retake the given planet, then the Coalition will need to remove the Tholian garrison there.
FEDS SENDS
Richard and William
I actually agree with those points - all seem reasonable.
The things which are not covered are
1) Can a crippled ship be replaced - I would guess no as the general rule (Expedition) get trumped by the specific rule ('replace losses')?
2) What happens if a replacement (or additional ship if less than 12 are designated initially) 'fails' to get of to a hex with the Detached Fleet ship in (or example get pinned when moving)?
3) Does a ship in point 2, lose it's designation if it fails to get to the required hex of the Detached Fleet ship) and what happens if it's already outside the 2 hex limit?
4) Can another designated ship go to the same hex as the ship in 2?
i.e. For 2 to 4, what happens if the entering an existing Detached Fleet Ship hex requirement fails?
Clearly, the intent of the Detached Fleet is to keep the Tholians in one area (6 hexes wide blob in effect), but pinning and other rule interactions means they need to be handled very carefully (one good example being if your have to Strat Move the ships from Tholian Space to where the Detached Fleet is - what happens if the SM route get blocked - you can't enter the require Detached Fleet hex.....)
Just looking at the sentence in (503.331) that is the main source of trouble:
Ships can be sent to this Detached Fleet to replace losses, but must enter a hex containing a ship of the detached fleet during the same Movement Phase that they leave Tholian space.
It does not say that ships can only be sent to replace losses. To me, this sentence is adding a capability, not putting on a limitation. So I would think that just as one specifies an expeditionary fleet during one's econ phase, one could also swap ships in and out during one's econ phase, provided that nothing outside of the 2-hex limit is swapped out.
So re Paul's point 1, I think that one can't replace any ship in the fleet, crippled or not, except during the econ phase.
It says you can replace losses.
So if the detached fleet loses a ship, a new ship can be sent to replace the lost ship, as long as the new ship arrives at a hex of a detached ship in one movement phase.
Yes, we agree about that.
But suppose some of the ships in the detached fleet return within the 2-hex limit. During the econ phase, can they be swapped out for different ships?
I say yes, because an expeditionary fleet can do that.
Paul says no.
Unless he can cite an explicit rule saying it can't or at least come up with some good implied results from existing rules saying it can't, then you can, and it doesn't matter what he thinks really.
That's why there are rules, you can't just say one can or cannot do something if the rules don't support that.
Actually, surely the rules states what you can do?
Where is the rule that allows you to de-designate a Detached Fleet ships?
Therefore if it is not stated in the rules - you can't do it.
But, I think the issue is how players 'interpret' the rules or how they play the game.
Hopefully, we can agree the intention of the Expeditionary Fleet rules is to allow one Empire to support another empire at an extended range.
The intention isn't to allow ships to operate and nip into and out of normal supply range.
Which surely is how the Designated Fleet is designed to work?
It allows the Tholians to send a group of ships to assist it's allies.
It may be more effective to have 12 ships to operate just outside the 2 hex range, but (and I may be wrong), I don't believe that is the game designers intent.
But on the rule and as the bolded paragraph stated by William, there is a rule based mechanism to designate new Detached Fleet Ships - to "replace losses". There is no enabling rule which gives any other option to replace a Detached Fleet Ship, so it seems as it stands, the rules answer is 'no', you can't designate new ships, unless the 'old ship' are lost.
I see a lot of rules questions from you that seem to be already answered by the rules, at least it seems that way to me. Over time it has colored my thinking about your questions.
I am going by (411.7), which is written in a way that the expeditionary fleet is designated every turn, i.e. (411.70) and (411.73). I don't see anything in the Detached Fleet rules to suggest that it is different.
Quote:By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, June 30, 2020 - 09:35 am: Edit
The Federation SIT lists rule (549.121). I've looked through all my references but I don't see a section 549, where is it located?
Ken, you don't give enough information here. Where on the sit is the reference to (549.121)?
Richard…….
Well I have only been playing the game 20 years - so all these 'new fangled units and Empires'* takes a while to understand... 
(We got to turn 20 I think last time, which was the furthest into a game I previously had got - and Tholia hadn't been invaded - so PF's, PFT's, SCS's and Tholians are all new to me!)
William
Sounds good - the only thing I would say though is that ships outside range two of 'Tholian NZ' space have to remain part of the Detached Fleet until they get within 2 hexes of Tholian space - a otherwise more than 12 ships could be outside of normal permitted space?
i.e. 12 ships are designated on turn 22 and end the turn in 3618 (i.e only a Detached Fleet ship can be there) - 2 are killed and 2 are crippled - and they remain there on Coalition Turn 23.
On Alliance turn 23, 2 new Detached Fleet ships can be designated, but until the crippled ships get back to Tholian space, news designated ships can't replace them.
Basically, no more than 12 Tholian ships can ever be outside Tholian Space+2 NZ hexes, as Pinning could stop a previously designated Detached Fleet getting within the normal Tholian space.
There may be times when additional Detached Fleet ships could be designated, but it may not be legal to get them to a hex with a Detached Fleet ship in (i.e. a SM Node was destroyed for something and the Tholians can't get to a base for example, which new units could get to?)
So - designated in Eco, max 12 ship and must go through a hex with another Designated Fleet ship in.
Hopefully we will be close to the intended rule.
Yes, of course, they are designated every turn during econ. Any that are still outside of the 2-hex range would have to remain designated.
>>It may be more effective to have 12 ships to operate just outside the 2 hex range, but (and I may be wrong), I don't believe that is the game designers intent.>>
I'm confused by what is confusing here. (503.331) is pretty clear about how the Tholian "Detached Fleet" operates. It operates like an "Expeditionary Fleet" (411.7), but doesn't need to pay a surcharge as long as it is in supply from a Tholian supply point.
So you designate what ships are in the "Detached Fleet" at the same point that you would designate an "Expeditionary Fleet" (1G). If the ships are already beyond 2 hexes from Tholian Space, you have to designate those ships as the "Detached Fleet" (as otherwise, they are breaking the "no more than 2 hexes" rule), but if there aren't 12 of them already ('cause some died, or retrograded to the Capital previously), you can designate different ones (that are presumably in Tholian space or close and within 6 of the other ships in the "Detached Fleet", due to (411.7)) to go and join the "Detached Fleet".
You got 12 Tholians in a "Detached Fleet". You lose some, you can replace them during Step 1G of your next turn. Boom. Done.
>>Sounds good - the only thing I would say though is that ships outside range two of 'Tholian NZ' space have to remain part of the Detached Fleet until they get within 2 hexes of Tholian space - a otherwise more than 12 ships could be outside of normal permitted space?>>
Correct. If they are further than 2 hexes from Tholian space, they have to be part of the "Detached Fleet". So when you are designating the "Detached Fleet" during step 1G, you designate all the ships that are already 3+ hexes from Tholian space (as, well, you have to), and then if there are any of those 12 spots still open, you can designate some new ones (but they have to be within 6 hexes of the other ships in the "Detached Fleet" ('cause of the "Expeditionary Fleet" rules), and they can then go join the original ones.
>>i.e. 12 ships are designated on turn 22 and end the turn in 3618 (i.e only a Detached Fleet ship can be there) - 2 are killed and 2 are crippled - and they remain there on Coalition Turn 23.
On Alliance turn 23, 2 new Detached Fleet ships can be designated, but until the crippled ships get back to Tholian space, news designated ships can't replace them.>>
Correct. 'Cause the 2 crippled ones start the turn 6 hexes from Tholian Space, and thus need to be part of the "Detached Fleet" (by definition), even if they are crippled.
>>Basically, no more than 12 Tholian ships can ever be outside Tholian Space+2 NZ hexes, as Pinning could stop a previously designated Detached Fleet getting within the normal Tholian space.>>
Correct.
Don't do crazy things with the Tholian "Detached Fleet" (unless it is getting you something awesome). Just, like, use them to strike the things they can strike within 6 hexes of Tholian space, and then retrograde them back to Tholian space when they are done blowing up a BATS or something. Or heck, if you do a good job of capturing planet 2518, base them there, as that way, other Tholians can react or reserve to defend them.
According to (503.33), Tholian ships, other than their Detached Fleet, can't go further than 2 hexes from Tholian space.
But what about their fighters?
There is an earlier ruling about E&S teams which says that as E&S teams are not ships, they can go outside of the 2-hex limit. The same might reasonably be applied to fighters.
On the other side, the rules for frozen fleets, and even their bases, have been updated so that their fighters can't leave the frozen fleet's region.
So there is precedent both ways.
Best guess from me is as they are Ship based, they have the same restrictions as the Ships - as per the normal rules for unreleased fleets.
Also posted in Q&A -
Question on 410.51 if I may please.
If an Allied Main Supply Grid has been providing Host Support to an out of supply force, can the designated ships be changed to a out of supply force which is in a Partial Supply Grid?
I would assume Yes, but only if the old Infrastructure was cancelled and new support lines (in the Partial Supply Grid) established - 410.563?
i.e. Host Support is based on a single Supply Grid (and normally would be the Host's Main Supply Grid) - and so just like an Empires main grid - if forces are not in the main grid, they can't be supported by it?
The ability to generate spare parts for another Empire from a Partial Supply grid is perhaps less logical though - and should 410.51 refer to a Host Empire Main Grid to provide the support from?
So, can Host Support be used from a Partial Supply Grid?
If Yes, would an existing Support line from the Host Main grid need to be cancelled (and reset up - both in the Partial Grid and then potentially cancelled and reset up in the Main Grid if it become if reconnected).
Thinking about it (after the paragraph), I am now thinking 'No' - as it keeps it simple and avoids a partial grid needed to be kept documented, if it's reconnected to the main grid.
Clearly, a Main Supply Grid of Empire X can't support Empires Y ships in a Partial Supply Grid.
But could you pay to set up supply lines in a Partial grid?
Simplicity wide, I think no.
- What does everyone think?
"I would assume Yes, but only if the old Infrastructure was cancelled and new support lines (in the Partial Supply Grid) established - 410.563?"
You're making that up. There's no rule that says you have to cancel supply lines to make new ones (at least in the case of supply lines supporting a particular guest empire). So, no, you don't have to remove existing lines supporting that particular empire to make new lines to support that particular empire.
"i.e. Host Support is based on a single Supply Grid (and normally would be the Host's Main Supply Grid) - and so just like an Empires main grid - if forces are not in the main grid, they can't be supported by it?"
The rule does NOT say that host support is based on the main grid in particular. Also note, that you refer to a singular main grid, but most empires have two main grids, one based on their capital and another based on their offmap area.
"The ability to generate spare parts for another Empire from a Partial Supply grid is perhaps less logical though - and should 410.51 refer to a Host Empire Main Grid to provide the support from?"
This is not a rules question, this is a rules proposal.
"So, can Host Support be used from a Partial Supply Grid?"
Lacking an explicit rule stating otherwise, it seems the answer is yes; the existing rule doesn't differentiate between main and partial grids and just says 'supply grid', which both subtypes are.
"If Yes, would an existing Support line from the Host Main grid need to be cancelled (and reset up - both in the Partial Grid and then potentially cancelled and reset up in the Main Grid if it become if reconnected)."
The existing rules do not ever say you have to do this, so it would seem that you don't need to cancel existing homeless supply slots supporting empire x to create the new supply slots.
"Clearly, a Main Supply Grid of Empire X can't support Empires Y ships in a Partial Supply Grid."
The rules do not say this anywhere. It is not 'clear' that what you say here is the case; rather the reverse of clear.
"But could you pay to set up supply lines in a Partial grid?"
Yes; keep in mind that you don't designate supply lines as part of a specific grid, main or otherwise when you pay for them. The way it seems to work is that the guest empire's ship (that is paid for) can use the supply grids of the host empire in the same way that the host empire's ships can. As long as the host empire pays the cost, the guest empire ship can be supplied by the host empire, assuming that there is a valid supply source and supply path (which depends on the myriad existing rules defining these things).
*** Basically you seem to be of the idea that homeless supply lines must be designated as for 'main grid only' or 'partial grid only' and cannot be switched in function between the two. The rules do not say this anywhere and this idea adds needless complication to a rule that is pretty simple in concept: pay the cost and a guest empire's ship can use the host empire's supply grids.
Richard
Thanks for your answer and it has actually allowed me to find the answer.
410.51 - "This rule does not require that the adopted ship can actually be in the territory of the adopting empire, only that it can draw supplies from THAT Supply Grid."
(My emphasis)
So when you designate a ship, in effect you are required to confirm three things
1) Which Empire is being supported
2) What type of ship (Carrier or Non Carrier) is being supported (i.e. is the 1 Ep surcharge required)
3) Which Supply Grid is being used
410.52 and 410.56 allow you to change 2 (with potentially 'an upgrade' occurring from a Non-Carrier to a Carrier ship of the same empire).
Only 410.563 allows you to change 1 or 3 though.
I agree its buried in 410.51 - but it seems to be fairly clear that Host Support is from a defined Supply Grid.
Normally, it doesn't make much difference, but the Capital Grid could be separate to the Off Map Grid - and Partial Grids come and go all the time (and so may or may not be allowed).
(From a logical point of view and yes I know, logic is never a good idea - how would the Host Support be able to get into a Partial Grid when normal Hosts own ships can't be supplied, outside of the 1 Ep for 5 ships route?)
No, I think it is more likely that the rule is just assuming the host empire's supply grid is one entity (ie not divided).
This is supported by the fact that _no where_ does it ever explicitly state you need to use a specific main or partial grid.
Personally I think your interpretation is bonkers and makes a simple rule more complicated.
The rule seems clear to me:
(410.51) HOST SUPPORT: In the case of any ship which must draw supplies from a Supply Grid not connected to its own home territory . . .
The phrase "a supply grid" I've bolded above is your answer. A supply grid is a supply grid. If using a partial grid, the partial grid would have to pay the usual 1EP per 5 ships surcharge, in addition to designating the ships as homeless.
I'm not sure if this rule should be read to imply that PF replacement requires a supply path or a valid strategic movement path (with the proviso that the tender can be one endpoint):
(502.433) New production PFs are moved to the tenders (bases,
whatever) they are deployed on by special free Strategic Move-
ment (starting at the place they were built and ending at the ten-
der or other base).
The text of the particular rule suggests that a strat path is required. But the fact that the PFT rules are written to be analogous to the carrier rules implies that a supply path would be sufficient.
These are different requirements. For example, a supply path can pass through an empty hex that is adjacent to ships from both sides. A strat path can't.
My thought is that the replacement PFs must have a valid strategic movement route from the capital grid to the closest strategic movement node, then a just a valid supply route from that point to the tender in question.
The rule outright states that special strategic movement takes the PFs to the tender or base.
It also states that the replacement PFs start the journey at the place they were built. This could be someplace other than the capital if they were built somewhere other than the capital.
A valid special strategic movement path is required, the tender or base would be a strat move node for this purpose but the path would still have to avoid enemy ships, have a base every six hexes and so on.