This is a game between Richard Eitzen (Hydran, Gorn) and I (Kzinti, Fed) against Karl Mangold (Coalition, though he might get someone for the Romulans when we get there).

Rules are the basic game plus advanced EW, salvage, and annual fighters.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 06:32 am: Edit

Spring Y168
Klingon high command has received word of a "border incident" between Lyran and Kzinti frigates in the neutral zone between the two empires. The Lyran frigate captain, "Sparrow-Slayer," claims they were ambushed whilst on patrol, with his ship taking significant damage - including crew casualties. The Kzinti insist that the Lyran ship crossed over into Kzinti space and did not correct course despite repeated warnings. The Patriarch's spokesperson, "Cat-who-yells" apologized for any injury to Lyran crewmembers, but reiterated no Kzinti wrongdoing. However, she went on to suggest that Sparrow-Slayer was perhaps unaware he was in Kzinti space because his ship was handicapped by "typically shoddy Lyran engineering and unreliable instrumentation."
The Lyran ambassador has confirmed that the Red Claw duchy has mustered it's county fleets and is planning an exercise near the Kzinti border to display Lyran military might and "show the Kzinti what they might face if they did not choose their words more carefully."
Klingon diplomats are arriving in Lyrantan to discuss the situation with the Emperor and his council. As everyone knows, the Klingons are a peace-loving people, and hope this situation can be resolved without further bloodshed...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 08:45 am: Edit

With Advanced EW - are you allowing the Hydrans and Kzinti to build any non-2010 Scouts plus will you use PDU EW and variable base EW?

The Lyrans get the CWS and DWS, Klingons get the D6S and D5S (and D6D), Feds get the SC and CVL..... the Kzinti get a SF and the Hydrans get the SC.

13 EW for the Coalition over an Alliance capital is pretty easy..... and Kz and Hydrans will max out at 11 with full EW and PDU EW and 1 SC/SF....

(and 3 x CWS and a D6S would be 13....).

In deep space, it's massively one sided (although the Hydrans do get the NSC....Kzinti have no 2+ EW Scouts).

Gorns will be similarly hamstrung and the Rom's aren't exactly happy either.

I think the EW imbalance is pretty serious....

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 09:27 am: Edit

We are using 313.0 and 317.0, specifically (unless it references something that requires non-basic rules, like SWACs.) This includes variable base EW and PDU EW. 317.0 also includes scout pods, which mainly help the alliance I think, as Lyrans are the only coalition race that has them. Plus I don't think the D6S is in the OOB for basic rules. Still waiting to hear back on a consensus on any further details, though.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 09:49 am: Edit

Also, even with full rules the I'd say the Kzinti EW game is weak. The best they can do the first 5 turns is a CL/CD (defensively they can use auxiliaries I guess) until the MSC comes along. The Lyrans honestly aren't much better since the CWS isn't available until Y172. That means the Klingons are carrying the coalition EW-wise prior to Fed entrance anyway.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 10:24 am: Edit

The Kzintis on the first five turn do have the LAS for 3 EW or pairs of scout pods for 4 EW. The Lyrans start the game with the CLS being possible (3EW), various EW options for tugs and can build LASs.

I suspect we are not using units that are not in the F&E 2010 SIT but I could be wrong.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 11:11 am: Edit

The Kzinti CD and CLD are both awesome conversions. Their EW is not that great, but for an EW unit, their compot is terrific. The combination makes them great battle line ships in situations where fixed defenses give you a compot edge. The only drawback is that you may not want to put them on the line in situations where they are likely to get fried by dirdam.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, September 27, 2020 - 12:24 pm: Edit

The CD, CLD and the AUX scouts are not in F&E2010 -

313 - Advanced EW rule and variable EW for bases.

317 - Well that adds EW for PDU's, Scout Pods and Aux Scouts...

...it also mentions some additional scouts - Kzinti still don't get a good scout the though - only the CLD is added in AO (CD is CW, DWS is SO, MSC is SO).

OK - no Klingon D6S (as that's also SO).

With Lyran DWS's and Klingon D5S's from turn 1 - and the Kzinti needing to build escorts - the EW war is already lost.

So over a base - the Kzinti and Hydrans may not lose EW (but certainly can, if the Coalition try) - but deep space or Kz/Hydrans attacks will be very much up hill.

I think you need to look a little bit closer on EW and what your taking from 313 and 317 (or other rules).

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Saturday, October 03, 2020 - 11:00 am: Edit

September, Y168
The past few months have seen a worst case scenario of all-out Lyran-Kzinti war come disturbingly close to reality.  "Negotiations" over how to best deal with the situation, have mostly reduced to name-calling and accusations between Lyran and Kzinti diplomats, resulting in the Lyran ambassador being expelled from Kzintai in July.  Captain Sparrowslayer, originally slated to be quietly retired at the end of his tour, has instead become something of a folk hero in his native Pelt Hunter county. Memories of suffering at the hands of the Kzinti during the 4-powers war still linger in these border provinces, and a surprising proportion of Lyran citizens have come out vocally to demand retribution against the Kzinti for Sparrowslayer's fallen crewmembers. Red Claw's military exercises along the border were overseen by the Emperor's own son, leading a detachment of the Foremost fleet in a brand-new dreadnought design. Across the border, these actions were watched closely by the Kzinti Count's fleet, which was itself forward deployed along the neutral zone. The Klingons were invited to participate in the Lyran wargames, but had declined, not wanting to escalate tensions between the already hot-headed feline races.

But escalation is occurring, regardless of Klingon wishes. Empire scouts have noted quite a bit of movement on their northern border; while deployment of the Count's fleet to the Lyran border was perhaps predictable, Klingon observers were surprised to learn of deployment of the Duke's fleet to the Klingon border as well. Worse still, the Federation 4th fleet was detected just days ago docked at the battlestation adjacent to the Klingon and Kzinti neutral zones. Although Klingon top brass had initially laughed off the Kzinti-Federation alliance, (the members of the hegemony can barely stay allied to each other as it is, they reasoned), this recent turn of events has forced new analysis of the situation. Ever seeking leverage over the Klingons, the Federation appear to be using their alliance with the Kzinti to fight, at best a proxy war, and at worst a surprise attack on the Empire. The Klingon alliance with the Lyrans would activate the Empire in the event of war with the Kzinti; war with the Kzinti would similarly involve the Federation, and a preemptive strike against an unprepared Empire would not only be disastrous, but now increasingly likely.

The Emperor is not taking any chances. Northern fleet admirals have quietly been placed on alert and major expansion of the Klinshai shipyards has been ordered, particularly slipways for construction of the new D5 cruiser design. The Empire is beingovilized, at least on the northern half.  If war is to come, the Klingons will be ready for it...

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Saturday, October 03, 2020 - 11:02 am: Edit

And with that...
Lyran Eco CT1 Y168

Income
Maj Planets(9):45
Min Planets(10):30
On-Map Provinces(16):32
Off-Map Provinces(4):8
Total:115

Expenses
Production [59.5]
10 BC
8 TGC sub CA
20 CWx4
6 DWS sub DW
8 DWx2
7.5 FFx3 (0404, 0408, 0608)

Other Production [27]
10 FRD
10 MB
7 PDU

Conversions [12]
6 CA to DN (0408) (Major)
3 CL to CLS (0404)
2 DW to DWS (0608)
1 CA to CC (0608)

Total Expenses: 98.5
Treasury Remaining: 16.5

Klingon Eco CT1 Y168

Income
Maj Planets(9):45
Min Planets(15):45
On-Map Provinces(26):52
Off-Map Provinces(0):0
Total:142

Expenses
Production [102.5]
9 D7C
8 TGA sub D7
10 D6M sub D6
7 D5S sub D5
40 D5x8
8 F5Lx2
4+0 FV sub F5 (4/6 FFF used)
9 F5x3
7.5 E4x3 (1309, 1411x2)
0 Free E4

Activations [6]
2 D6x2
2 F5x2
2 E4x3 (1 free)

Other Production [10]
10 FRD

Conversions [20]
5 D6 to D6M (1411) (major)
4 D6 to D6D (1411) (major)
2+6 D6 to D6V (1509) (6/6 FFFused)
3 D6 to D6D (2318)

Total Expenses: 138.5
Treasury Remaining: 3.5

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, October 03, 2020 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Before you make any moves - can you confirm what will be allowed?

"I suspect we are not using units that are not in the F&E 2010 SIT but I could be wrong."

The CLS is from a Captains Log (46) rather than listed in 2010 (or AO/CO if scouts from those expansion rules sets are allowed)?

Picking certain hulls from the expansions is pretty unbalancing to start with - but allowing some Captain Log ships is perhaps very unbalancing.

So Feds get EW4 Scouts. Those with SP's can get EW4 on their tugs (L/Kz/H & G).

Lyrans can EW3 from day 1....(if you allow the CLS)

Outside of Aux Ships, Kzinti at best have EW2 on Scouts (on a horribly expensive hull).

Hydrans have to wait until 173 for an EW3 Scout.

Romulans for at least have the SPC, but max out at EW3.

I can't see the game lasting, as the Alliance until the Feds are in the war are pretty much facing -1 or -2 in most battles.

(Yes, the LAS is good...but so easy to kill).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 03, 2020 - 02:57 pm: Edit

I think you are overestimating the effect of the advanced EW rules.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, October 03, 2020 - 03:53 pm: Edit

I might be....but if you find out on turn 7-15 - it's a lot of game time wasted and impossible to fix at that point.

The Kzinti will be OK over 1401 - 14 EW is 'easy' (yes, 18 compot lost with the SB), but over a SB or weaker hex - or on the offensive, it will be tough.

Kzinti will not be able to accept approach battles for example..... as winning the EW war will be hard without a base.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, October 03, 2020 - 10:23 pm: Edit

I think you are wrong and that the effect will be minor at best (and possibly pro alliance). On early turns the alliance, much more often than not, fights large engagements over defensive hardpoints which generally give them anywhere from one to ten extra EW points. The alliance also starts with a few 4 point EW tug/pod combos to aid with this.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, October 04, 2020 - 04:02 am: Edit

Richard - as your the Alliance (and have the Empires who are weak on scouts), I shall bow to your comments

On non-2010 ships though, what is allowed?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, October 04, 2020 - 08:58 am: Edit

Pure scout variants of base hulls already in the basic game. In addition to those ships, we are also using (pure) scout pods.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Sunday, October 04, 2020 - 10:42 am: Edit

Also we are using the the master SITs from message board, which is why the CLS was included.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, October 04, 2020 - 11:08 am: Edit

Sorry - you seem to be singing from two different hymn sheets in what can be built?

The Lyran CLS for example doesn't exist in any rule sets, just the Captains Logs.

So, the Lyrans get to build the CLS (which appears to be the only Scout added in CL46!)..... and the Kzinti can't build the CD or MSC.

or is it ALL Scout Variants is permitted - irrelevant to 'rule set' (so the Kzinti do get to build the CD and MSC and the Klingons get to build the D6S etc)?

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, October 04, 2020 - 11:44 am: Edit

The Lyran CLS is included in the 2016 edition of Fighter Ops.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Sunday, October 04, 2020 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Any scout based on a basic rules hull is allowed, so Zin get the MSC and DDS, for example, but not NSC or DWS, since those hulls are in the expansions. Lyrans get the CLS extra and that's about it.
Basically when hashing this out beforehand we wanted to include more scout options, since basic set doesn't really have a lot of variety in EW. But at the same time, we can't allow ships that require other rules we haven't included, so scout carriers with heavy fighters are out as well as survey cruisers (except the Feds, sigh.) We also included the scout pods so that at least every race had the opportunity for a 4EW scout (except the Klingons, blah.)
Anyway, this was a lengthy discussion hashed out before the game, just not on the message board.
Personally, I feel advanced EW gives an additional layer to gameplay by opening new tactical options. I certainly am not interested in playing a lopsided game, since that is not very fun, and all of us playing have agreed that the rules we have included are not unbalancing the game.

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Monday, October 05, 2020 - 08:34 pm: Edit

On October 4th, nearly half the Lyran navy crossed the neutral zone into western Kzinti space. Much of the Red Claw fleet went straight for the Count's SB, pinning forces there, while a detachment of the home fleet hit BATS 0703 and the Lion's Share attacking BATS 0803. 0803 was defended by a small detachment of the Count's fleet and is being joined by the Duke's reserve, where an evenly-matched battle is shaping up.

Klingon Admiralty would have appreciated forewarning of this attack, as the unilateral decision will draw the Klingons into war by treaty. Suspicion of Federation treachery has made the Emperor surprisingly receptive to this new turn of events (although he had envisioned a joint attack instead on the Hydrans, who have no mutual defense treaty with a large and economically unrivaled neighboring power.)
Regardless, the Klingon empire is preparing for war, for war has indeed come.

Combat results to follow.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, October 06, 2020 - 02:12 am: Edit

OK on Scouts.

On the Klingons being upset.... they could always attack the Lyrans to end the War

By Karl Mangold (Karlsolomon) on Tuesday, October 06, 2020 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Sadly, the Klingons are dependent on Lyran handouts to afford building B10s, so that'll never work.
Priorities.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Friday, October 09, 2020 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Battles still ongoing. Both border BATS 0701 and 0703 went down for Lyran cripples; a swipe at the Count's SB scored 2 SIDS and killed a BC and EFF in exchange for 2 Lyran CAs and a CW as well as a pile of smaller cripples. One of the CAs was commanded by the Alderman of Pelt Hunter shire; some in Red Claw are already calling for the promotion of Sparrow-slayer in his stead (although Sparrow-slayer's frigate was present at the battle, he didnt actually see any action. Not that that lessens his folk-hero status any.)
Another large battle is taking place at 0803 over a Kzinti BATS between part of the Lyran Home Fleet and the Kzinti Duke's Reserve. More on that as the situation develops...

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Friday, October 09, 2020 - 10:24 pm: Edit

The Kzinti accepted approach battles over both 0902 and 0803. Over the SB, it was a bit of a surprise to me that the Lyrans continued to fight - 122 to 75 the first round with a shift in the Lyran's favour. I had figured EFF for CW was a fair trade and the rest of the damage could go on fighters.

A similar situation is over 0803, except that the Kzinti have a DN to the Lyran's CC, so it'll probably be one round and then the Lyrans running.

The Kzinti media is praising the Lyran temerity. As long as they're making a completely indefensible assault upon the innocent Kzinti, they might as well continue to fight against impossible odds and find ignobility in death.

In other news, I'm keeping a much too detailed spreadsheet of all the rounds of combat: compot, ew, rolls, ships crippled/destroyed, directed damage, etc. We'll see if I can glean any insights from it by the end of the game.