My son and I have our copy of the F&E rules, and in the absence of counters (no core set in the shop, not ability to really set up a paper game anyway in the house since we will be going through maaybe a turn a week) we will be playing via VASSAL.

[By the way, he 2-0ed me this weekend with his triple Hellbore Orion. I mean, that ship is silly, but it is also really dangerous.]

I will be playing the Coalition against his Alliance. He's into carriers, and the Feds' econ, so this makes sense. We're not playing cut-throat; he's ten and we're learning, so we may allow a few sequence of play mulligans and the like as we get going.

I would like to give a shout to Peter Bakija and Jason Langdon, whose "And Now For Something Completely Different" threads were a major reason why we are trying the game out. We are mostly starting off with their rules (We have FE, AO, CO, FO.)

My job calls for a lot of time investment, so I don't know how fast we'll be able to proceed. But I will try to write (and as time goes on, let Trent contribute).

If nothing else, maybe it will stop him trying to convince me to play F&E scale battles in SFB!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 02:22 am: Edit

Hi Graham

Firstly - good luck to you and your son.

Secondly - can I suggest you play the introductory game first - and then the turn 1 to 6 scenario, to get a handle om the game?

F&E is very much near the top of 'complexity' (very much at the World in Flames level), but unlike a lot of games, some of the rules seem very simple, but the way they play is very very illogical (Supply and Fighting Retreats) and more than 1 player have left games because they got that annoyed by a rule.

So - baby steps are needed - and the Alliance has a massively steep learning cover. So even playing the Introductory scenario twice or more isn't a bad idea.

In fact - might help if you play it and then swop sides and play again.

Although there is no real minimum age, you might find it helps to not play with the add on rules or full game until your Son is perhaps 12. Some of the game Dynamics WILL blow your mind away, never mind your sons. (And regrettably, some of the new rule packs seem to massively benefit the Coalition - and it will take along time to work out how they are balanced - noting some rules, don't seem to be balanced (if you read the X-Ship discussions for example)).

And the worst thing to do is play a game, do several mulligans and you still annihilate* your son (with the end result is they don't want to play the game end!).


* - One of the most crucial game aspects is the game dynamic of the flow of the game. F&E is very much like WW2 in that if you play the Alliance, it's the equivalent of playing Poland - you get overrun and there is very very very little you can do to stop that happening.

Hopefully by turn 25 (which will take probably 12 months to get to), you suddenly become the Russian Steamroller of the Summer of 1944 - and the Alliance starts to have some 'pro-active' (rather than re-active) fun.

So go easy on him, allow both of you to lean the rules slowly and with luck, by the time you have played 3 or 4 mini-games, you will be happy to play the full game and you will both understand the key rules to avoid game ending blunders.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 08:00 am: Edit

>>[By the way, he 2-0ed me this weekend with his triple Hellbore Orion. I mean, that ship is silly, but it is also really dangerous.]>>

(Heh, just for clarity, officially, a 3HB Orion is illegal in tournament play, but I suspect you know that :-)

>>I would like to give a shout to Peter Bakija and Jason Langdon, whose "And Now For Something Completely Different" threads were a major reason why we are trying the game out. We are mostly starting off with their rules (We have FE, AO, CO, FO.)>>

Hey, thanks! Glad we could inspire. The rules we left out of those expansions were:

-From Base 2K10: Remove ship captures (don’t like having to remember). Add “you can always sub an FF” (i.e. you can always build an FF instead of any ship on your production schedule). Only Klingons get BBs (using B10 construction rule), except for Federation Reaction (from AO). No Orions in any capacity other than abstract smuggling.

(The "You can always sub an FF" is a made up house rule, but we like using it, and it generally helps the Alliance out).

-From CO: Remove SFGs, 77th PF Division, 23rd FiCon Division, Monitors, SAF, Ground Combat (replace all G ships with base hull; ignore G Aux ships), Prime Teams, Police Ships (except to react to raids; all POLs are compot 3).

(SFGs tend to be super demoralizing; the weird PF "divisions" are fiddly and fairly corner case; Monitors are mostly an Alliance benefit pulled out to balance out; SAF/Ground Combat are both fiddly, adding an whole extra phase to combat, and generally pro Coalition; Prime Teams are fiddly but mostly a wash; actual Police ships were removed as they are mostly an Alliance benefit as well for balance).

-From FO 2016: Remove Swarms, Wild SWACs. Long Term Capture (mostly to avoid having to figure out map status).

(Swarms are corner case and kind of silly; WILD Swac is an optional, pro Alliance rule that is very complicated).

-From AO: Ignore Admiral Quality (use regular Admirals); remove Logistics Task Force (Feds can build FDX like Klingons); Penal ships; use Fed Reaction (opting to use optional rule).

(LTF is a pro Alliance rule pulled out for balance; Penal ships are very fiddly; the Fed Reaction rule is optional and unlikely to come up much, but still provides disincentive to try and get *both* Alliance capitals before T7...)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Thank you both. We are, due to T.'s preferences for just diving in, going to go ahead with expansions, and because he's excited about the prospect, try to play the full sequence. However, we may well just restart if we get confused, so who knows.

Thank you for the detailed rundown. One question: Did you just remove the penal ships or replace with base hull (as with the G ships)? I have been presuming they just disappear. Aren't really enough of them to swing the war anyway.

[So far we've left the G ships in, on the theory that remembering that they are the base hull is easier than going through 40 fleets and switching them in Vassal. They'll be the first counters up against the wall...]

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, November 23, 2020 - 04:06 pm: Edit

>>Thank you for the detailed rundown. One question: Did you just remove the penal ships or replace with base hull (as with the G ships)? I have been presuming they just disappear. Aren't really enough of them to swing the war anyway. >>

Any ships from the AO OB that were variants based on rules we weren't using, we just replaced with a base hull, so the G unit ships, SFG ships, Penal ships all got replaced with just a regular base hull.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 02:35 pm: Edit

Setup is pretty pro forma; The Klingons mostly just set up on the borders, without separating too many ships (except on the Hydran border, where the West fleet is split in two to be able to react on the full border.) A couple of Auxiliary Klingons are detached, transparently to scoop up NZ hexes eventually without diverting real ships.

The Lyrans basically set up on their home starbases except moving a few ships of the Home Fleet to 0608 for conversion purposes.

[As a first time player, wow does the Lyran SIT stink! Compared to the Klingons or Kzinti, my ships are kind of terrible. So I'm sending the Klingons 10 EP in some random transports so the EPs can be spent on decent ships. We'll pretend this is the Lyrans' payment to get Big Brother to enter the war on CT2.]

LYRAN ECON
Year/Turn Y168F CT1 Exploration: 1+1+2=4
Starting Treasury 0 FFF: 3
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 3 3 16 56
Off Map 2 2 4 24
Capital 4 5 35
Captured
Transfers -10
Salvage
Repairs
TOTAL INCOME 105

Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
BC 1 1 10
CA 1 TGC 1 8
CW 3 CW 3 15
DW 2 DW 2 8
FF 3 FF 3 7.5
DW 1 DWS 1 6
CW 1 JGP 1 7
Total 61.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
CA 1 DN 1 408 6
JGP 1 JGP-V 1 608 5
DD 1 SC 1 608 1
DD 1 SC 1 404 2
CA 1 CC 1 404 1
DD 1 SC 1 411 2
CA 1 CC 1 411 1
CA 3 CC 3 OFF 3
Total 21

Other Production Cost
FRD 10
Total 10

Grand Total 92.5
Ending FFF 0
Ending Treasury 12.5
Exploration
4

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 02:42 pm: Edit

The Klingons are prioritizing getting heavy ships and battle lines prepared. Making a couple light carriers to create fighter screens, too. After this, we save our FFF for D5V's in 170... or at least that's the plan.
B10 production is proceeding quickly, rolled a 6.

Klingon Econ
------------
Year/Turn Y168F 1 Exploration:
Starting Treasury 0 FFF: 6
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 4 7 26 93
Off Map 0 0 0 0
Capital 5 8 49
Captured
Transfers
Salvage
Repairs
TOTAL INCOME 142

Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
D7c 1 D7c 1 9
D7 1 TGA 1 8
D6 1 D6M 1 10
D5 9 8D5, D5S 9 48
F5L 3 F5L 3 12
F5 6 2FV, 4F5 6 24
E4 3 2 E4a, e4 3 10
Total 121
Conversion Actual Hex Cost
D6 D6M 1411 5
D6 D6S 1411 4
Total 9
Activations Cost
D6 2 2
F5 2 2
E4 3 3
E4 1
Free
Total 7
Other Production Cost
B10 5
E4a (free)
Total 5
Grand Total 142
Ending FFF 0
Ending Treasury 0
Ending Exploration
0
B10 Process:
0 + 6 = 6
[Sorry about the formatting, this is all coming out of Excel, and there's only so much time I want to spend making pretty columns in plaintext.]

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 02:49 pm: Edit

-Lyrans can't enter Klingon space on T1.

-Klingons don't start the B10 till, IIRC, T3.

Lots of little things to miss; there are also rules as to what NZ hexes the Lyrans can grab on T1 (the Klingons can't grab any).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 02:53 pm: Edit

See, this is why I knew it was a good idea to post things here.

Klingons can't Op. move, and therefore can't grab NZ hexes. I knew that! But they are so ready to do so. Can the Lyrans go south around the Wyn cluster to get to another Kzinti BATS?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Graham

Firstly, the Lyran SIT is probably the most balanced - lots of good quality ships at fair cost (Gorns are equally good, but expensive....)

And you can turn small ships into bigger ships too - which is always good.

Secondly, Lyrans can't send Ep's to the Klingons until turn 2 - as the Klingons are peaceful, honest!!

Third - The second JGP isn't available until turn 2 - and personally, the Lyrans shouldn't get Free Fighter Factors until turn 6 - as Free Fighters technically start with the first true carrier - somehow adding Aux Ships and the JGP-V to the game got overlooked in allowing lots of Lyran fighters earlier than they should have them.....

It's also absolutely crucial the Klingons deploy 'fully' to stop the Expedition - if they don't the Hydrans have to attempt it.

(If the Klingons deploy aggressively and it's not attempted it hurts the Hydrans far too much basically - equally if the Hydrans succeed it's game over more or less for the Coalition - so the fairest thing to do is the Klingons deploy defensively, which gives the Hydrans a small break).

P.S. Auxiliaries can't capture Neutral Zone Hexes - it has to be Ships (Aux and various other things count as 'Non-Ship Units')

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 03:10 pm: Edit

On the Lyran SIT; I think I agree with that. But there's nothing fun to buy or upgrade to in Y168F.

Klingons have maulers, big scouts, carriers, etc. Lyrans have... the ability to make lots of DNs. Looking forward to that 13 point mauler though.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 03:15 pm: Edit

The Lyrans don't need to make anything fun; they just make a hundred CCs on T1, and then churn out extra DN/BCs every turn. Eventually they get strong carrier groups (of which there aren't that many, but still)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Graham

Be patient.

The Lyrans have enough toys to build on turn 1 to keep them happy.

The Kzinti though are very much at the bottom of the 'toys to build' pile (other than the CVS)!

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Yes, the Lyran's strength is to churn out DN's. 'Better' fleets that have only 1 DN and then compot density 9 and even less on the filler ships do not do well against lines of 6-7 DN's and a battlegroup or similar, in the 125 compot range (assuming an admiral). Quite possibly also with DB support from some D6D support from big brother.

But you do have to just accept the initial turns of relative weakness as you work on building/converting all those DN's/maulers/and wait for the reasonably nice carriers you later get.

Tim.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 04:03 pm: Edit

Lyrans can still use those transports to set up a satellite stockpile at a border bats/planet, then pick it up and op move it to Klinshai turn 2. It does count against the 20EP total limit you can send on turn 2, though. There was a tac note on this a while back iirc

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 04:53 pm: Edit

The Lyrans have a kinda boring SIT, but with some really nice conversion options. One of my favorites is FF > DWS, which can be done at any SB. Add to that the Klingons converting every D6 > D6D they are allowed and the Alliance should _always_ be shooting into an EW shift, except maybe over a capital.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 25, 2020 - 10:00 pm: Edit

By always, you mean sometimes.

Fed GSV and SC would have a word.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, November 26, 2020 - 09:21 am: Edit

Oh, the Feds get some really nice scouts, but there are only 4 CVL / COV to go around and you really can't put SCs on the line the way you can D6Ds and DWSs. Yes, the DWS is only 1 EW at full compot, but that's still a pretty good deal and you can create mountains of them. Plus the Klinks should have 20 D6Ds (including the IWR) by the time they invade the Federation. If the Hydrans and Kzinti decide to go on a campaign targeting the D6Ds, I say go right ahead. It means that lots of other important, and harder or more expensive to replace, ships are getting to live.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 26, 2020 - 10:25 am: Edit

To add to what Jason said.... EW is the Coalitions Friend

DN(Form), D6M, 3 x D6D, Battlegroup [3 x CW, 3 x DWS], 6F from a carrier(s), D6S(Scout) is 83/13 EW.

CW's and Fighters to take damage on if not directed - and enough comppot with the Mauler to kill most ships.

All doable from turn 2 (and no unique or very limited ships like the Fed CVL)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, November 26, 2020 - 11:28 pm: Edit

We had a fair amount of time today, and got through CT1 (which we both had obviously thought about a lot before re-doing it), AT1 (short!) and CT2. Full descriptions with econs to follow, but quickly:

CT1 the Lyrans hit the border BATS and got ambushed in 0701 by the Count's fleet (a reserve), fighting an approach and retreating. The other two BATS died quickly.

AT1 the Kzinti retreated on their starbases.

CT2 the Coalition fell on virtually everything in reach (excepting only things the Marquis' fleet could potentially react to), knocking down, at great cost, the Duke's and Count's SB's, the Kzinti retreating when they ran out of fighters. Notably, the Coalition directed a lot (ships, not SIDS) and the Kzinti dropped damage. The Lyrans have something like 80+ repair points (I'm still counting), which is more than they have repair facilities, so some of those ships won't be back on the line until CT4.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, November 27, 2020 - 04:02 pm: Edit

To help those that 'watch', what ships have the Kzinti lost?

BC's and below will die fairly often -and lots and lots of FF's will die.

If the Kzinti converted some BC's to CC's, they may also die, but carriers and DN/Tugs should rarely die.

Dropping damage is efficient in the short term but the Alliance do need to try to kill key hulls (DN/C8's and Maulers) as and when then they can - which generally is when ever the ship is on the line and enough damage is done!

(Killing them in the form box, unless its the last one available for an ongoing battle is perhaps not efficient though).

All those ships self crippled may seem a lot of damage, will come back in 1-3 turns, which isn't good for the Alliance long term.

I assume the Coalition didn't attack 1401 on turn 2?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, November 27, 2020 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Here's the real update, from CT1 through CT2.

Pre-War:

We are electing to provide the Kzintis a Mothball Fleet (2FF, 2DD to be activated offmap), and two conversions of BC and ships into CV groups in the Home Fleet.

Here is CT1.

CT1 Lyran Economy
Year/Turn Y168F 1 Exploration:3+5+5=13
Starting Treasury 0 FFF: 3
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 3 3 16 56
Off Map 2 2 4 24
Capital 4 5 35
Captured
Transfers (to be delivered to Klingons via transports CT2)-9
Salvage
Repairs
TOTAL INCOME 106

Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
BC 1 BC 1 10
CA 1 TGC 1 8
CW 3 CW 3 15
DW 2 DW 2 8
FF 3 FF 3 7.5
DW 1 DWS 1 6
CW 1 CL 1 6
Total 60.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
CA 1 DN 1 408 6
JGP 1 JGP-V 1 608 5
DD 1 SC 1 404 2
DD 1 SC 1 411 2
CA 1 CC 1 OFF 1
CA 1 CC 1 404 1
DD 1 SC 1 OFF 2
Total 20
Other Production Cost
FRD 10
MB 10
CP 5
Total 25

Total 0
Grand Total 105.5
Ending FFF 0
Ending Treasury 0.5

CT1 Klingon Economy
Year/Turn Y168F 1 Exploration:None.
Starting Treasury 0 FFF: 6
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 4 7 26 93
Off Map 0 0 0 0
Capital 5 8 49
Captured
Transfers
Salvage
Repairs
TOTAL INCOME 142

Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
D7c 1 D7c 1 9
D7 1 TGA 1 8
D6 1 D6M 1 10
D5 9 8D5, D5S 9 48
F5L 2 F5L 2 8
F5 4 FV, 3F5 4 13 (4FFF)
E4 3 E4a, 2E4 3 9.5
Total 105.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
D6 D6M 1411 5
D6 D6S 1411 4
D6 D6D 2517 3
D6 D6D 1509 3
D6 D6D 1716 3
Total 18
Activations Cost
D6 2 2
F5 2 2
E4 3 3
E4 0 0
Total 7
Other Production Cost
E4a 0
FRD 10
Total 10
Grand Total 140.5
Ending FFF 2
Ending Treasury 1.5

During Combat, there were three combat hexes, 0701, 0703, and 0803. In 0701, on the approach, the Lyrans lost a CL and some cripples, but directed a Kzinti BC on the line, then retreated.
In 0703 and 0803, the Lyrans traded a crippled FF for a BATS.
The Lyrans retrograded on their border BATS, leaving Kzinti space undisrupted.

Net: Lyrans 11.5 EP of repairs and a lost CL
Kzinti no repairs, lost BC.

The Lyrans also staged some EPs within 6 hexes of the Klingon capital with transports and used strategic movement to set up their CT2 upgrades. Our impression was this wasn't an important turn either way. Both sides were unambitious; the Lyrans were satisfied with BATS, and the Kzinti focused on saving one, rather than trying to save more.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, November 27, 2020 - 10:42 pm: Edit

One minor glitch; you can only produce 2 D6Ds per turn.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, November 28, 2020 - 12:21 am: Edit

Well, at least that's easily fixed, since I can just eliminate an unreleased conversion in the West Fleet or TBS.

The casualties on CT1 (and AT1, about which Trent will write tomorrow, had none.)

Lyrans: CL
Kzinti: BC
Lyran cripples: Not sure exactly, but mostly a bunch of FF's, totaling 23 repair points. The Kzinti battle line on approach was pretty good, and Trent rolled well (As you'll see on CT2, his dice game is on point).

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Saturday, November 28, 2020 - 01:46 pm: Edit

Welcome to the game. Glad I was a part of the inspiration.

All the best to you and your son.

Mine is 12. Not sure I could keep him away from other computer games long enough to learn this game.