Archive through December 06, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Reports from the Front:
Active Scenarios:
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Mauler:
Archive through December 06, 2020
The open question in our house is whether VASSAL counts as a computer game and that therefore playing F&E counts as "screen time" (about which we are fairly draconian with the kids by modern standards). This is unresolved, but fortunately, apart from Op. Moves and combat, we don't need the screen anyway.
Thank you.
Being fair - you could play with the paper map and counters (if you had them!) and so probably easiest to not count it as computer time.
More game based, is that there is a lot of planning needed and so if you limit his time - one view would be that it is unfair.
It's like saying your going to play Speed Chess and only he has a clock....
Hehe - when I say "open question" I don't mean I think that... but it isn't a balance issue because we mostly only open up the computer program together.
If only I could get him into chess! I'm actually good at that game.
Hi this is Trent the Alliance player in this game.
Kzinti Econ
Survey 0 + 13 = 13 (Next 20)
EP 93
Schedule
BC (CV, 6 FFF) 12
CL (CVE) 13
DD (DDE) 7
2 FF (2x FFK) 6
Total: 38
Conversion
CL (0904) CLD 3
CL (1304) CLD 3
CL (1704) CLD 3
CL (OFF) CLD 3
CVL (1402) CV 7
Total: 19
Command Point : 5
FFF 0
+ Salvage 2
-4 PDU (Kzintai) 28
Final Treasury : 5
To explain my economic choices: I substituted a CV for a BC and a CVE for a CL. I did that because I like carriers, and because I need to soak damage on fighters. I substituted a 2 DDEs for 2 DDs. I did that to defend my carriers. I substituted a 2 FFKs for a 2 FFs. I did that to cripple them to defend my big ships. I converted a CVL to a CV in my capital hex. I also converted CL to CLD to get drone bombardment. I did this in hex 0902, 1304, 1704 and off map.
In operational movement I moved the Count's Fleet back to starbase 0902 to take advantage of the Starbase Compot to fight the Lyrans if they choose to attack.
Otherwise I kept my fleets on Starbases to defend, and assigned a reserve from the Home Fleet.
Lyran Econ Y169SYear/Turn Y169S CT2 Exploration:13+14=27
Starting CP: 5
Starting Treasury 0.5
FFF: 3
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 3 3 16 56
Off Map 2 2 5 26
Capital 4 5 35
Captured .8
Transfers -10
Salvage
Repairs 11.5
TOTAL INCOME 95.5
Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
DN 1 DN 1 16
CA 1 TGC 1 8
CW 3 CW 3 15
DW 2 DW 2 8
FF 3 FF 3 7.5
DW 1 DWS 1 6
CW 1 JGP 1 7
Total 67.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
CA 1 DN 1 408 6
CL 1 CLV 1 OFF 3 3FFF
CL 1 CLV 1 OFF 9
DD 1 SC 1 411 2
FF 2 HFF 2 404 3
Total 23
Other Production Cost
CP 5
Total 5
Grand Total 95.5
Ending FFF 0
Ending Treasury 1.3
Ending CP 6
Klingon Econ Y169S
Year/Turn Y169S CT2
Exploration:0+5=5
Starting Treasury 4.5 FFF: 8
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 4 7 26 93
Off Map 0 0 0 0
Capital 5 8 49
Captured
Transfers
Salvage
Repairs
TOTAL INCOME 142
Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
C8 1 C8 1 16
D7 2 TGA 1 8
D7 1 8
D5 9 8D5, D5S 9 48
F5L 2 2 F5L 2 8
F5 4 FV, 3 F5 4 13 4FFF
E4 3 E4a, 2 E4 3 8.5
Total 109.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
D6 D6M 1411 5
D6 D6M 1411 5
D6 D6D 1509 3
D6 D6D 1716 3
Total 16
Activations Cost
D6 2 2
F5 2 2
E4 3 3
E4 1 0
Total 7
Other Production Cost
E4a 0
CP 5
Total 5
Ending FFF 4
Ending Treasury 9
Ending CP 7
On CT2, the war kinda actually kicked into gear after the BATS-related skirmishes on CT1 and the (mostly expected) lull of AT1.
The Coalition created eight battle hexes, including the Duke's and Count's Starbases, which were hit with big fleets able to pin and potentially capture if the Kzintis did not send their reserve from 1401 (they didn't, partially due to Trent's misreading of the OOB, but we didn't discuss that until after.) The Klingons hit 1506, 1405, 1205, 1105, and 1004 with small stacks able to kill the BATS/planet, and drove into 1304 with a reinforced North Fleet. The Lyrans just dropped their fleet on the Count's starbase without preamble or complications, because they're Lyrans, leaving only one extraneous task force to clean up the 0701 BATS.
[GMC Note: I avoided the possible targets in range of reaction from the Marquis' fleet. I wanted to drop the Count's and Duke's Starbases and all supply points on the border otherwise, so I did not go to 1401 (Yes, I know this means it is much less likely I will ever take the Kzinti shipyard, but even on CT2, he would have the entire Home Fleet with 144 Compot of static defense, and I couldn't get a fleet in (and out) without allowing the Count's and Duke's SB's to potentially survive, skipping targets, or otherwise screwing up the invasion. My Klingons are a bit conservative in their war doctrine, apparently.). I did keep back a significant fleet on the border as a reserve, in order to "defend" the Home Fleet, although Trent chose not to risk moving out with the Home Fleet reserve.]
Over 1304 and especially 0902, the Kzinti did not oblige, dropping damage rather than directing (they did direct a D5S and D6S when I put scouts on the line in addition to in formation while the Duke's fleet was actually at 1304). The Lyrans have something close to 80 points of repair. The Lyrans spent a command point at 0902 and the Klingons spent one at 1304.
1304 was an approach and four rounds over the SB, but only two before the Kzinti retreated off the SB. The Klingons managed a line of 120ish with some EW, and dropped damage to push the Kzinti off the starbase faster (If I had it to do again I would have directed ships I think, but it was our first real combat, so we were both finding our way.)
In 0902 the Kzinti line wasn't quite as good and the Lyrans directed the biggest ship on the line (BC, BC, BF, CLD) for four rounds (Approach and 3 over the SB) until the Kzinti retreated, and the Kzinti dropped damage every round. (Yes, we both switched strategies, no, that probably doesn't make sense, and in addition, we mostly picked the same numbers for BIR, generally high, when presumably someone should have wanted low.) Half the Lyran fleet was crippled (more than half, in terms of # of combat ship hulls).
Overall losses:
Kzinti: 2xBC,BF,CLD, 2xSB, 4xBATS, Minor planet 1104.
Kzinti Cripples: 4xBC, CLE, 3xFFK, 2xFF, CL, TGC
Lyran: CC
Lyran Cripples: 8xCW, 3xHDD, 4xHFF, DW, CL, 9xFF, DD
Klingon: D6S, D5S
Klingon Cripples: D5, 8xF5, 2xE4
Pretty sure the Kzintis drone ship production limit is lower than four.
We both made that mistake the first time around... odd. We'll sort it out.
[Update: Discussed, and we are hand-waving this rule for the Kzinti this turn because upon further inspection, three of the "new" drone ships actually fought, and one was crippled, on CT2. Call it a balance point or two for the Alliance. Like I said, a few mulligans were expected since we're diving in the deep end.]
What was the 'misreading' of the Kzinti Home Fleet OOB - as the SB's seem to go down fairly easy?
Ignoring the Kzinti losts BATS and PDU's , the Kzinti took around 263 damage and the Coalition 280 (which includes any cripples they took over the BATS and Minor Planets) - which doesn't look correct if the Kzinti got to defend 2 SB's and generally the Coalition was directing and the Alliance was letting fall.
A SB defence is worth normally 30% to 50% more compot - so it would appear similar damage was done.
With a defensive Kzinti player - the two Kzinti reserve fleets are crucial and can help bolder the SB defences (as it's fairly easy for the Coalition to 'dummy' towards 1401 and then move away, so it can't react out.
So what reserve fleets did the Kzinti have and what forces did the Kzinti have?
Also worth checking - did you use the SIDS rules correctly? With more modest defending forces, taking SIDS does extend the time period you can defend a SB (and BATS), without reducing your bases Compot.
On ships you have built, you need to be very careful in what is allowed and what isn't.
It can be very dangerous and unbalancing to allow Ships from the Capitains Logs for example - and allowing the Lyrans to build CLV's breaks one of the game basics - the Lyrans don't have true carriers until much later in the game.
When ships get added to the game, they get balanced out in that rule set (and so when the CLV is introduced, as there is no current balancing hull, the Alliance OOB might get improved or a Pro-Alliance Rule introduced).
Sorry if some of these comments seem to be negative - it's crucial you get the basics right 
Too late to edit.
Damage would actually be 299 v 280 (overlooked the crippled value of the SB's) - again ignoring any damage taken by the Coalition over the BATS and Minor Planets.
So what was the forces and dice over the SB's?
Yeah, the OOB mistake was pretty serious; he didn't realize he could use the Home Fleet on CT2. I think we're going to redo CT2, or potentially just restart the game.
This will depend on whether we can convince Vassal to go back to the right point... at least in part.
Edit: Vassal is complying, so we are redoing CT2 movement and combat. Will advise.
Yep. that's a pretty big mistake
The Kzinti home fleet is also released on turn 1 - although if the Lyrans plan well, they Kzinti can't attack on turn 1 (to burn up fighters) as it can bring the Lyran reserves closer to the front line.
Not having it on turn 2 though is crucial.
The second reserve fleet counter on can also be allocated to the Marquis fleet (other than the 6 ships guarding the Fed Border) - so if no major 1401 assault occurs, both SB's can be supported by a reserve fleet.
It may not save the SB, but the cost of killing them is a lot higher.
Yeah, on CT1 I only touched the BATS, so nothing was in range of the Home Fleet. He just saved a BATS by reaction (0701) and called it a day.
I'm trying to figure out how to pin or distract the reserves. This would be easier if I wasn't also mobbing border stations which sucks up ships.
Kzinti reseves (on turn 2 to 6) are not really pinable - as they can operate out of the Marquis provinces 1401/Barony.
So you have to distract them and the best way is to attack 1401, 902 and 1304 - all in strength and a modest force to 1502 (plus BATS/Minor planets etc)….
….which is tough (and that's part of the game).
Basically, 902 and 1304 need a strong enough force that if 1 reserve turns up - its close.
1401 needs a strong enough force that you can either strip the PDU's of the Capital - or devastate several other planets by attacking 3 or 4 systems a round (and so if only 20 Kzinti ships are there, they can't defend everything).
Choices choices choices.
Early on, the Coaltiion can do an awful lot, but they can't do everything at the same time.
CL 1 CLV 1 OFF 3 3FFF
CL 1 CLV 1 OFF 9
The CLVs spent 1 more EP than needed, with 4 FF, it's 2 EP with the 3 FFF discount, and 8 EP for the second.
For those watching, we have cleaned up the econs; The Kzinti and Klingons have a few more EPs saved due to cancelled excess drone ship builds.
The CL/CLV conversion is correct; there is a one EP charge for the upgrade itself included in the math.
Op. Movement is [hopefully, if I did everything right] done on the [NEW! IMPROVED!] CT2. Given that there were, you know, actual reserves designated, we backed up to the middle of CT2 after production and I reconsidered how to move.
The Lyrans have tried to be clever, dropping on minor planet 1202 with a small detachment (7 SEQ), and moving the Home Fleet to 0903 (leaving the Auxiliaries and FRDs behind here due to lack of movement) and then 1002, and then leaving a battle line (12-13 SEQ IIRC) behind on 1002 and moving the fleet onto SB 0902 (something like 40 SEQ)
The Red Claw fleet drops off a small detachment (7 SEQ) on BATS 0701 and then moves around to minor planet 1001 with the remaining 13 ships (the remainder of the Red Claw Fleet having retrograded into the Home Fleet on CT1.)
[In this way there is a battle line with a CC and 12-13 ships on both "shortest paths" from the reserves in 1401 to SB0902. This is smart, right? S-M-R-T?]
The main North Fleet lands on 1307 as before (mid-50s SEQ), and small detachments are sent to BATS 1205, minor planet 1105, and BATS 1004.
Instead of mobbing more border BATS and the NZ planet, the Klingons hitch up their big boy pants and send about 25 SEQ to 1401, enough to at least put up a battle line at the shipyard if the Kzinti ignore the demonstration to strip some PDUs. If not, they can always fight an approach and then walk away, as long as either the Lyrans [1202 and 1001-1002] or the Klingons [1304 and 1205] open supply. [The Klingon FRD park and auxiliaries are in 1307.]
The Kzinti have two pretty strong reserves on 1401, each enough to easily win any battle hex except the Lyran Home Fleet and the Klingon North Fleet starbase assaults, and enough to seriously contest SB1304 if they both move there. If they move on 1202 and 1304 and the Kzinti can fight off the main body of the North Fleet in 1304 with only one reserve (unlikely I hope, but who knows), then the Emperor's Fleet in 1401 will be out of supply and unable to retrograde.
Brave warriors.
Brave, but possibly also dumb.
I tried to be as ambitious as possible with the limited resources the Coalition has on CT2, with the exception of leaving alone the Marquis area in favor of threatening to strip PDUs off of Kzintai and take 1202 (which looks like a great location for a Starbase).
[Kzintis all stayed home on their Starbases in reaction movement. I think this was probably smart?]
[If you see something wrong with the above, please let us know. If you see something dumb I did, keep it to yourself until CT2 combat is resolved, then by all means let us know...]
Reserves make decisions next.
"The Kzinti have two pretty strong reserves on 1401"
Sorry, you haven't backed up far enough - the Marquis Fleet can be designated a Reserve on Alliance Turn 1 - and other than 6 designated ships (including the CC) is released if the Klingons invade Kzinti space.
Therefore the normal strategy is to designate the maximum number of ships (10 or 11) in one reserve fleet in 1704 and the other reserve 1401.
The only 'risk' is that the Klingons don't invade on C2 - and so the Marquis Fleet is not released.
However, that perhaps is a massive Coalition mistake - the Lyrans on their own will not do much against the Kzinti.
As a Tactic - if 1401 is seriously attacked, the Marquis Fleet Reserve goes to 1401 - and some of the 1401 reserve goes to defend a different key hex. (Remember, you remove ships from a reserve before it moves - so CC, 3 x BC, 3CVS, 3CVL, SF reserve can become a CC, 3CVL, SF reserve moving fleet).
If the 1401 is attacked by say just 20 Klingon ships - the Marquis Reserve goes to a key hex to save - and part of the 1401 reserve goes to another key hex - leaving say 18 ships (20 ish equivalents) in total to defend 1401.
1-3 Approach battles (and SB/PDU fighters can be used instead of weak Frigates to take damage on) - the Coalition may still have the strength to devastate (at modest cost to them) perhaps 2 or 3 minor planets.
The key is to maximise the Defenders Reserve Fleets - and not using the Marquis fleet is a fairly major error.
We did redo reserves. I asked about the Marquis fleet to make sure Trent knew it was released, given the confusion the first time, and Trent insisted on designating two battle lines in 1401. I think he's concerned that I can just drop on the Marquis SB instead of the Duke's, or maybe he's looking to counterattack something (the FRD park?)
Graham
I think the honest answer is Trent doesn't know the scenario rules....
The Marquis Provinces (hexes 1705/1805 are not counted) are considered protected - if any Coalition forces enter them, the Federation immediately goes to Limited War.
So 1704 is perfectly safe...until turn 6 (the Coalition might attack it a turn early.... .but that is extremely unlikely) or far more likely turn 7.
Limited War prior to turn 7 will make the Coalition job a lot harder - and so the two provinces (outside those 2 hexes, which count as in Dukes Fleet area) are safe at the moment.
Did Trent know about the Federation Limited War rule cover the Marquis provinces?
Ha.
Neither of us did. I only didn't attack the Marquis because I didn't want to allow them to react on my stuff. I didn't realize they were protected by that rule either (I think we read that together at the outset, but both of us forgot. There is a lot to simultaneously remember, as no doubt you know.)
So, yeah, we're probably resetting again...
I did say there is ALOT to learn.
601.12 and 601.14 are perhaps the two best ways to have a short game.… if you want an Alliance win!
I think, given that I didn't hit the Marquis anyway, that I can probably just let him Retcon the reserves and then proceed to combat. We need to get to Turn Three someday...
Reserves have moved and combat is beginning on the reset of CT2 Combat.
We have nine battle hexes:
0701: Lyrans demolishing an undefended BATS.
0902: A starbase assault with 40 SEQ of Lyrans against the Count's Fleet (unreinforced).
1001: Lyrans taking an undefended planet.
1004: Klingons demolishing an undefended BATS.
1105: Klingons taking an undefended minor planet.
1202: A battle line of Lyrans attempting to sneak close to the capital and being met by the Marquis' Reserve; the Kzinti will certainly keep the planet.
1205: Klingons demolishing an undefended BATS.
1304: The main Klingon fleet meeting the Duke's fleet and a strong reserve from 1401.
1401: About 28 SEQ of Klingons against about as many Kzinti, but the Klingons have a clear edge in ship size and quality in the capital hex.
Trent played his reserves as aggressively as possible to attempt to prevent the Klingon Fleet in 1401 from retrograding. The Klingon North Fleet is pretty much locked into SB 1304; if they retreat then the Emperor's Fleet in 1401 will be out of supply and unable to retrograde.
[One presumes the Emperor will be unhappy about that?]
On the other hand, the Count's Fleet is likely to be out of supply to start AT2, but getting them back in supply shouldn't be hard.
Ohhh lots to say...but don't want to say.
Will remain stumm until after the combats.
[We appreciate it. We're both making loads of tactical errors, but that's fine. It's the first time, and it is not like a heck of a lot is riding on the outcome.]
So far in CT2 Combat:
In 0701, 1105, 1205, and 1001 the Coalition took two minor planets and destroyed BATS for a few cripples included in what will be the final summary below.
In 1202, the Lyrans directed an SAD in formation and self killed two HFF's to avoid a pursuit round, then backed off to 1103.
In 0902, both sides took a bunch of cripples and the Lyrans lost two BC's and an SC directed on the line. The Kzinti lost CLD (put on the line in a later round and directed) and then after the fleet retreated, SAS, SAD, SAV, and the Starbase. The Lyrans were mostly dropping damage to make the Fleet retreat. The Count's Fleet then retreats to 0901, where it will presumably be rescued on AT2.
1304 and 1401 remain to be resolved.