Archive through December 21, 2020
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Archive through December 21, 2020
Coalition Turn 3 Lyran Econ
Year/Turn Y169F 1 Exploration: 27+11=38
Starting Treasury 1.3 FFF: 3
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 3 3 16 56
Off Map 2 2 5 26
Capital 4 5 35
Captured 3.8
Transfers -10
Salvage 9.75
Repairs 23
TOTAL INCOME AFTER REPAIRS 97.55
Starting Command Points: 5
Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
BC 1 BC 1 10
CA 1 TGC 1 8
CW 3 CW 3 15
DW 3 DW 3 12
FF 3 FF 3 7.5
CW 1 CLS 1 9
Total 61.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
CA 1 DN 1 408 6
JGP 1 JGP-K 1 608 5
CL 1 CLS 1 OFF 3
CL 1 CLS 1 411 3
FF 1 DWS 1 (1st Turn) 404 4
Total 21
Other Production Cost
CP 5
FRD 10
Total 15
Grand Total 97.5
Ending FFF 0
Ending Treasury 1.35
Ending CP 6
Coalition turn 3 Klingon Econ
Year/Turn Y169F 1 Exploration: 5 + 8 = 13
Starting Treasury 9 FFF: 10
Income Major Minor Provinces TOTAL INCOME
On Map 4 7 26 93
Off Map 0 0 0 0
Capital 5 8 49
Captured 2.8
Transfers 19
Salvage 11.725
Repairs 28
TOTAL INCOME AFTER REPAIRS 147.525
Starting Command Points 5
Schedule # Actual # Hex Cost
D7C 1 D7C 1 9
D7 1 TGA 1 8
D6 1 D6S 1 12
D5 9 D5 9 45
F5L 2 F5L 2 8
F5 4 F5 4 12
E4 3 E4 3 7.5
Total 101.5
Conversion Program Actually Produced Hex Cost
D6 1 D6M 1 1411 5
D6 1 D6M 1 1411 5
D6 1 D6D 1 1509 3
D6 1 D6D 1 2517 3
D5 1 D5S 1 1716 3
Total 19
Activations Cost
D6 2 2
F5 2 2
E4 3 3
E4 1 0
Total 7
Other Production Cost
E4a 0
B10 Roll: 6 5
Total 5
Other Costs
CP 5
Total 5
Grand Total 137.5
Ending FFF 10
Ending Treasury 19.025
Ending CP 6
Entering movement on CT3, I had a couple of questions. First, do I, as the Klingon-in-a-cat-costume running two empires, KNOW that the Lyrans are about to get attacked by the Hydrans? Or am I supposed to pretend that I am all focused on Kzintai?
Second, you can never have too many (enough) tugs, eh?
Third, how do you decide where to set up MB's to be upgraded to BATS/SB? I have to commit to setup or moving further forward before combat...
Fourth, man, playing the Alliance is tough for a couple of turns. You don't get to do a whole lot (I tried to get Trent to take the Coalition, but he wants the carrier empires...) until the Hydrans join, and even then...
There is nothing preventing the Lyrans from reinforcing the Enemy's Blood Fleet before the Hydran attack. Yes, it's knowledge that maybe the Lyrans didn't have, but foreknowledge like that is throughout the game.
Where to set up MBs... well the rules prevent your from having two co-located bases from having full effect with each other. But co-locating with a planet is just perfect.
The Alliance can actually cause some major frustrations for the Coalition even this early on. The Klingons have a lot that they want to accomplish if they want a successful attack against the Federation on turn 7, and the Kzintis and Hydrans job is to complicate that by slowing the Coalition down.
Graham - as Peter said, there are no Alliance surprise attacks in effect - the Coalition can pre-move stuff prior to the turn of the attack (hence my discussion proposal).
Just the Kzinti, Federation and Gorn get to be attacked without 'warning'.
On bases - there are some locations which are 'generally' good and 1407 and 1411 for Lyran MB's for example.
Others are more dependent on where you plan to attack.
1807 is good for the Klingons to upgrade, if they are going to concentrate against the Feds - but if the Coalition's aim is capturing the Gorn Capitals (and 1401 and 617) - not ideal.
Graham, a little trick to remeber with coalition. There are a lot of ships that are cheaper to substitute than convert, while other have the same price.
Substituting a D6M cost 10, 2 over the D6 price, while converting it costs 5, meanwhile a substituted D6S cost 12, 4 over the base ship, with the conversion cost the same 4.
So, unless there are specific reason to do differently, instead of Substitutin the D6S and converting the Mauler, paying 12+5, you should substitute the Mauler and convert the scout, paying instead 10+4 and getting the exact same ships. 3 Ep now might seem small change, but long term it is an abissal difference...
That said, base placement suggestion. First, unless logistics prohibit it, build bases on planet. It let you to have a race have the planet and another have the base, creating a double supply (L/K now, K/R later) and retrograde point.
That said, there are many schools on base placement, but generally there is consensus that the only place a base should be placed in Hydran territory is on the smoking ruins of the capital... Eventually the lyran player can place a MB in 1013 to carry forward supply to the hidran capital mid term if 0413 falls.
The kzinty front desperately need an hard point in range of kzinti capital ,specially if you don't plan to take it. It should be a lyran hard point because klingon has other means to get supply there. Most common choice is 1407, unless you plan to take the capital, and than any planet inside reaction range of 1401 become the preferred choice.
Aganist federation there are too many variables to give suggestion, too much depend on what happen first, when you attack, where you attack from, if the lyrans have to come help or concentrate on Kzinti and Hydran...
For a standard overwhelming turn 7 attack, the preferred base placement is 2106.
A base MUST be placed to connect the Kilingon and Romulan supply grids, and while many place it in 2914 (even double sometime) I personally prefear a romulan base in 27:15 and a klingon one in 3212.
The most important thing to remember when placing and upgrading bases, is that if the base upgrading slow down your advance and/or forces you to reardeploy fleets to cover for the upgrade, the base is helping the Alliance more than you. Deep frontline supply is captured planet and tugs domain, not bases.
It is probably true I should substitute the second D6M and convert a D6S. It's just easy to remember to make the two activated D6 Maulers and then sub your one scheduled D6 to a D6S. I have an aversion to losing D7 hulls for fancy D6's.
Well, as you can see above, I absolutely am committed to taking Kzintai; I lost four hulls plus cripples, one of them a D6S, to strip some of the PDU's on CT2. Sure, that's a sunk cost now, but on the other hand, if I burn that many ships and don't succeed, I'm hardly going to be successful in the war effort.
I have no idea how you put together three offensives at a time though, as I barely have the ships to clobber the Kzinti. I'm already concerned I won't have enough for the Hydrans, and the Feds and Tholians are coming....
[I'm not trying to get an unfair advantage over my son - he reads this too - so don't think by answering you are just helping the Coalition....]
Attacking 1401 on T2 is *possible*, but it is very much often a stretch. On T3, the Coalition should have a billion ships in range of 1401 (the Tholian Border Squadron moved up there by strategic movement at the end of CT2, yeah?).
One thing to keep in mind is that you don't really need to kill those Kzinti starbases before you take the Capital. If they are well defended, just pin them with ships that can't reach the capital anyway and be glad those ships aren't in the Capital. Having a few E4s here and there make retrograding possible. Like, it isn't impossible to accidentally get killed like this, but usually unfortunate accidents can be avoided.
Well, I beat the starbases on CT2 and got a small fleet into the capital too, which is great, but the downside is there are a lot of planets and BATS still standing: 1004, 1202, everything east of 1304... I haven't even taken the neutral zone planet.
Since it is now Op. move on CT3, I don't mind admitting that the original plan was to put a MB->BATS over 1202 as a permanent base (able to react to anything coming out of the Barony going west, in range of 1401, etc. If I fail to take Kzintai, I would make it a SB. If I take Kzintai, MB#2 goes up over the shipyard and gets upgraded instead. Regardless, 1202 becomes the permanent FRD parking lot.
[On the TBS, it "can move by strategic movement" but I interpreted this to mean it still counted against my strategic movement for the turn. Is this wrong, i.e., can I move the whole thing?]
The TBS can move by strategic movement at the end of T2; it uses your strategic moves like anything else. But the Klingons have 15, new builds get free strategic movement, and on T2, the Klingons really don't have that many things that need strategic movement (move most of the Home Fleet to the Kzinti border to attack things the regular way, North Fleet moves normally; other than new builds, the TBS and maybe a couple TGs, not much to strat move on T2).
So you can generally get most of the TBS up to the Kzinti border on T2. You could even spend a few buck to get the extras up by buying extra strat moves, but this is generally not a great idea.
>>If I take Kzintai, MB#2 goes up over the shipyard and gets upgraded instead.>>
It tends to be difficult to build a SB over 1401; you can't pin the Kzinti out of the Capital (as they can just come in from off map).
Three things
1) Yes, TBS released on turn 2 - it normally goes North, but can go West to face the Hydrans - and as mentioned, is not free SM.
2)Klingon Home Fleet isn't released yet....so it can be ignored (and hopefully is deployed to help stop the Hydran Expedition).
3) Peter has hit the nail on head - a SB over 1401 is very very difficult.
It is possible (basically the Kzinti never get a net 24 to cripple the BATS - and the Kzinti don't have the Strength to SIDS is (which still will require a net 18...) - so overcrippling is relevant.... there might even be a conversation going* on about that 
), but requires the Kzinti to be basically defending Federation space rather than Kzinti space.
* - Reason to mention it is that overcrippling (and Penal Ships) can make it impossible for the Alliance to kill a key target - unless they capture a Mauler or X-Ships have arrived.
Hence why it is a massive Coalition advantage - as even with 13 owed (Crippling a Gorn DN), achieving 27 with a modest fleet and a mauler, is fairly easy.
>>2)Klingon Home Fleet isn't released yet>>
(Ah, yeah, by "Home Fleet" earlier, I meant "Northern Reserve Fleet").
Starting Coalition operational movement on CT3, the Coalition is clearly set to take the foot off the gas against the Kzinti... but not THIS turn; both the TBS and the Far Stars Fleet are headed not North, to Kzintai, but to the Hydran border, but everything that is already in range of Kzinti targets is giving no indication of backing off.
The Lyrans have the Home Fleet (consisting of CT1 production + the original Home and Red Claw fleets) and the Fire Squadron (a joke my son made which we are keeping, this is the FRD park and a few auxiliaries - using the token for the Fire Squadron because it is where ships that are on fire go to get repaired) in 0903 [Something like 60 SEQ];
0705 [Reconstituted Red Claw Fleet, 10 SEQ of CT2 production including 2 DN.];
0404 [13 SEQ of repaired ships, plus the Far Stars FRD.];
0109 [20 SEQ (Far Stars Fleet)]0411 [23 SEQ (Enemy's Blood Fleet)].
The Klingons have the North Fleet, Northwest Fleet, Emperor's Fleet, and 2nd reserve (Not a reserve anymore, but it's still there) in 1307 [88 SEQ including auxes and the FRDs/tugs];
1105 [5 SEQ] [Northern Reserve];
1107 [5 SEQ] [Northeast Fleet];
plus assorted ships that spread out to get repaired at BATS or SB 1509, and unreleased fleets/new construction/things not on the Northern Border. The TBS (except for 3 D7, 2 D6, and a stray E4 left behind on Strategic Movement of CT2) is on BATS 1417 with part of the East Fleet. The rest of the East fleet is in 1214, and the Home Fleet is deployed in 1212. (I think this should stop the Expedition. But I'm prepared to be screwed.)
[The Coalition plan to set all of their reserves in the south this turn.]
The Coalition collect their various ships and send, in Kzinti space, the following into enemy-held hexes:
1. A D7C battle line to BATS 1405 (10 SEQ) [The Klingon Northeast Fleet]
2. A D7C battle line to neutral planet 1506 (10 SEQ) [The Klingon Northern Reserve Fleet]
3. A D7C battle line to BATS 1605 (10 SEQ) [The Klingon Northwest Fleet]
4. A C5-led reinforced line to planet 1504. (13 SEQ) [Battle Group Blood] (Clearly a pinning action.)
5. The Lyran Home Fleet (54 SEQ) and the Klingon North Fleet (66 SEQ) to 1401. Discussed below.
6. A FD7 line with a few replacement frigates to major planet 1502. (11 SEQ) [The Klingon Red Fleet]
7. A DN-led reinforced line to 1202 (16 SEQ). [The Lyran Red Claw Fleet.] (Ships that couldn't make it to 1401 for various reasons including an SAV and LAV.)
8. A DN-led line to BATS 1004 (11 SEQ) [The Lyran Black Stripe Fleet.] (This is mostly ships repaired too far from the front to make it to "real" combat, plus a CT2-construction DN that couldn't reach 1401 this turn.)
[One Lyran reserve is in 1401 and is pinned. The other is in the Marquis Starbase, and can absolutely ruin the day of any Klingons it wants to [DN,CV+3 escorts, CV+3 escorts, + 2 ships.]
[It isn't clear what the Coalition is doing in 1401. They have 120 ships and a fair number of Lyran DN's, Maulers, and so on, but they are a little short of decent scouts (because Trent has been directing every scout he sees on CT1 and CT2) so fighting multiple rounds against minus points over the shipyard may not be in the cards. Or maybe it is!]
In addition, the Lyrans are setting up a mobile base on 1001, and have two CW's that were repaired in 0404 dragging an FRD forward (currently in 0703). The Fire Squadron (Lyran FRDs/MBs/Tugs) has moved forward to 1204, and the Emperor's Fleet (Klingon FRDs/MBs/Tugs) has joined it there. Really looking forward to leaving these things somewhere and using my tugs for something more productive than toting FRDs around.
Combat next!
By the by, the Alliance has 78 SEQ in 1401, and although some of that is cripples, auxiliaries, and the like, a lot of it is carrier battle groups of one sort or another, so the Kzinti can clearly stand to take a tremendous beating with limited ship losses between PDU fighters and carrier fighters.
[Incidentally, the Kzinti lost 6 PDUs on Kzintai, not seven, last turn. So there are only 2 less now than the last time the Coalition got beat up there...]
Hi Graham
Question I suppose - as I am not sure everything is being done correctly....
Final combat losses (C2):
Lyran Killed: 2xHFF, SC, CL, 2xBC
Cripples: 4xFF, CL, SC, 5xDD, 4xCW [23 EP (counting 7 Klingons)]
Klingon Killed: 2xD6S, D5S, D6V, E4a, 2xD7, 3xF5
Cripples: 4xE4, 14xF5, 3xF5L, 2xD5, 3xD6, D7, D6M [28 EP (not counting repairs by Lyrans)]
Kzinti Killed: 2xCLD, 2xSAD, SAS, SAV, LAS, LAV, 3xBC, TGC [and 14xPDU (7 on Kzintai, 3 on Keevarsh, 4 on 1105, 2xBATS, 2xSB]
Cripples: 6xBC, BF, 2xDDE, 6xDD, FFK, 4xEFF, 5xFF, CC, 2xCL, 3xCLE [45.5 EP, but most of it is not on a repair point on AT2.]
The damage differential does not look correct, and so might be worth checking prior to this turns 1401 battles.
I have calculated that ignoring fighter losses, the Coalition took 582 damage and the Kzinti took 436 damage. If we add the SB fighters and say half the PDU fighters, that makes it 484 damage.
This is based on
All the Coalition Scouts was direct killed or crippled and it was in the Form/Scout Box (so x 3) - yes I know some were on the line, but that makes the difference even smaller.
The Lyran BC's and D6V/E4A was direct killed (so x 2).
Everything else for the Coalition was self killed or self crippled.
On the Kzinti side - the CLD, BC, TGC and 7 PDU's on the Capital was Direct Killed (and the PDU's killed at the Mauler rate).
The Aux ships, 2 BATS died without value and the 2 SB's died for 48 value each (so no crippled value on them).
The rest of the PDU's and ships was self killed or self crippled.
Accepting the Coalition outrolled by approx 0.67 pips - the Coalition only seemed to take 25% more damage than the Kzinti.
With the smaller fights being ignored (i.e. nil or reduced value for the BATS and PDU), that leaves the 1401 battles and SB assaults.
I would expect the defender to do say +33% damage over the life of a SB (as it adds 40-50% compot early on, as lines get bigger it reduces in effect) - yes if the SB uses higher EW, it reduces compot, but then the Attacker does less damage, so easiest to call it a wash.
Over the capital - the Minor planets are likely to be 'even', a 10%-20% defender advantage over the majors - and perhaps 150% defender advantage over the Capital.
With 2 rounds done over the Capital (5 PDU's died) - even with poor rolls, that's say 160 damage - and so the damage diffential doesn't looks right.
So two things have occurred
1) You son is directing when he should be letting it fall on smaller/non relevant targets (the HFF for example)
2) The lines are incorrect somehow or an error is being made.
Example
1401 Capital Hex
SB 48/EW 1
12 x PDU (initially) 108/EW4
Line DN, 3 x CC, 2 x BC, 2 x 3CVS, CLD (Adm and 1 Command Point used ), Tugs with Scout Pod, 2 x 4 Pt Drone Ships = 113/EW6
So 269 Compot and 11 EW (down to 251 with 17 EW)
A good Klingon line on turn 2 might be
TGA+BP, Mauler, 3 x D7C, Battle Group [3 x D5, 3 x F5L), 2 x D6D, 6 x Fighters, D6S(Scout) = 109/8 - Again Adm and 1 CP used
(If your playing with Split Tug Pods, the TGA might have a BP and DP, which gains you 1 EW).
So 109 and -2 on the dice v 251 - hence plus 150% damage done by the defender.
So, ignoring 50% of the PDU fighters, the easy to kill stuff (Aux's etc) and all ship based fighters, the difference looks too small on a best terms basis - and probably close to no difference when the discounted things are taken into account.
Hence why something doesn't look right
Can you confirm what happened over 1401 and the SB's on directing etc?
The answer is we screwed up 1401 and the Kzinti are getting another 2 PDUs back (we managed to do two things wrong in our first capital hex battle, which frankly doesn't seem outlandish given that we were passing the book back and forth the whole time looking up rules).
First, we forgot PDU EW (over the shipyard, not generally), so he had a -2 shift in his favor, not -1. Second, it doesn't matter, because I can only direct 4 PDU at a time anyway under 508.12 (which I read last night after I posted the above, because we were trying to figure out the same thing.)
Once again, just adding the PDUs back is easy and doesn't require us to reset to CT2, thankfully. And neither effect changes anything else: he had plenty of fighters to take the extra damage on.
I assume you directed on 5 PDU's then in 1 round (as I am guessing that seems to be the second thing you got wrong)?
Don't worry - I have being playing for over 20 years - and I still keep referring to the Rule book constantly.
Also, it looks like you are using my original post (I corrected the Kzinti cripples down as I counted a couple of BC's and so on as crippled twice when adding up my notes.)
I need a separate discussion thread or something...
Nothing to stop you having more than 1 discussion thread!
Probably 5 years ago (eeek, might be even longer) - 1 game had 3 threads
1) General comments for both sides
2) Alliance only thread
3) Coalition only thread
Each side agreed to only go into the general one and their sides thread.
Can't remember what happened to that game.
I will create another thread for game updates and transfer some of the updates there to get it going when I have time, leaving this thread for discussion.
In the meantime, there is one reserve to move, as stated above, before combat.
Peter:
I hope you don't mind, I mostly plagiarized your rules description in the other thread, since of course we're copying it.
G
Question for your Son
I assume the CVEs were used without escorts?
Why?
Although with FCR's CVE have less value (to provide replacement fighters) - they perhaps are too valuable to throw away - and losing 2 is fairly expensive.
Sounds like the Kzinti are doing pretty poor on key dice rolls (the 1 over the Capital is just - eeek) - it's totally annoying with rolling 4 and higher with say 30 compot forces and 3 or lower with 80 compot forces.
Although it doesn't replace that poor luck, 3 failed shock rolls (and the 9 Ep repair costs) does atleast go someway to offset that pain.
This is Trent: The CVE's were used without or with only one small escort because a lot of the escorts were still crippled from CT2 fights at the Starbases.
With maulers, directing CVE+4 COMPOT escort is possible.
[GMC Note: Given that there is no way to move before the repair step, losing a big Starbase fight is tough; you end up either performing field repairs, or waiting a whole turn with a bunch of cripples.]
Two questions/comments
1) Yes, Maulers will make killing weak carriers possible.
2) Just your playing with Ad hoc escorts?
Although it doesn't help when defending capitals (as cripples go to the planet with the most PDUS's) - you can use part crippled carrier groups over other defended locations.
Example -
CVS+cle+FF can be used over 1502 fairly safely.
(Getting 48, or 38 with a Mauler is possibly, but not likely early in the game).
Using Carriers without escorts is always risky - and generally not good for compot either - as the CVE will only have an average 4.5 with the missing slot.
A CL and FF would be better - or even a CL with the CVE fighters fed forward (and so getting 27 to kill a 'naked' CVE, is only modest in chance).
In other words, unless you want the enemy to direct on a Carrier (which is a valid tactic, if you need to hold the hex), don't risk them.