Archive through December 25, 2020
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Archive through December 25, 2020
Using crippled escorts honestly hadn't occurred to us, but most of the cripples were moved off map or to 1704 for repair anyway; only 16 repair points remained in 1401.
I don't think Trent ever put a carrier on the line without escort. He lost one CVE that was feeding fighters forward when it was alone and there wasn't anything enticing on the line to direct, and the CVL with a 5 point escort on the line that was directed for 40 (30 damage with a mauler). As I said, the net dice were okay, but the details favored the Coalition.
Yes, ad hoc escorts are in FO, and we've both been using them pretty heavily. The Klingons in particular don't want to waste too much effort on E4a's when Y170 is literally next turn.
The Kzinti had an absolute metric ton of carriers, but the strongest carrier groups were assigned to the shipyard system.
I think ad hoc escorts and flexible carrier groups are in the F&E 2010 rules now.
Two questions/comments
1) Yes, Maulers will make killing weak carriers possible.
2) Just your playing with Ad hoc escorts?
Although it doesn't help when defending capitals (as cripples go to the planet with the most PDUS's) - you can use part crippled carrier groups over other defended locations.
Example -
CVS+cle+FF can be used over 1502 fairly safely.
(Getting 48, or 38 with a Mauler is possibly, but not likely early in the game).
Using Carriers without escorts is always risky - and generally not good for compot either - as the CVE will only have an average 4.5 with the missing slot.
A CL and FF would be better - or even a CL with the CVE fighters fed forward (and so getting 27 to kill a 'naked' CVE, is only modest in chance).
In other words, unless you want the enemy to direct on a Carrier (which is a valid tactic, if you need to hold the hex), don't risk them.
[REPLYING TO STEWART HERE]
Didn't devastate planets because each time it was a choice between taking the opportunity to maul/direct a decent hull and deal the damage to the planet; devastating a minor is worth 2 EP/turn or 8 EP. A major is 3 EP/turn or 12. Directing a BC is also 8 EP, but also eliminates a ship build on the schedule (which is worth something) and eliminates a defender between now and when all those EPs are used, too (which is also worth something). So if you can kill a cruiser, I would think you do it. In addition, undevastated, denuded-of-PDUs planets are, like, the only opportunity that the Coalition gets to fight Kzinti ships straight up, without a "sloping pitch" made up of PDUs or bases. So I was happy to trade some hulls (although given the number of shocked-out maulers as I tried to repeat this, it didn't work out amazingly well).
Frequently, the Coalition can just offer to fight at the planet - if there aren't any defenses, it's like fighting in open space. It can often be hard for the Kzinti to justify doing that, especially early.
Richard is correct. Ad-hoc escorts are in the 2020 base rules under (515.34).
Yeah, I just forgot ad hoc escorts were in the base rules rather than FO since I have them all in the same binder.
More relevantly, I forgot that the Alliance can, you know, attack. AT3 (to be reported on by Trent shortly) has involved the Lyrans losing a BATS and there is a dicey Starbase assault about to go on where the Lyrans could kind of conceivably lose 0411, which would, you know, be bad.
Now, the Hydrans are probably, win or lose, going to be down a lot of ships they need to defend against the Klingons. But, yes, this is slightly embarrassing.
Sorry to say this, but I still feel you may be getting something wrong with the rules.
The inbalance of casutlies seems to grow and grow - accepting the Kzinti might roll badly in large battles and well in small battles, the mix still doesn't seem right (and all the easy targets are already dead) : -
Lyrans: DN, CW killed, 8xCW, 3xCL, FF crippled
Klingons: 2xD6M, D7, F5 killed, 2 x D6M, D5S, 7xD5, 4xF5, 2xE4 crippled.
Kzinti: CL, BCx3, CVL, SC, CL, 2xCVE, FFK 7xPDU (1x Keevarsh, 2xZamorla, 4xKzintai) killed; DD, SF, FFK crippled, also some number of fighters best numbered in scientific notation.
You mentioned the DN was killed in the form box (unless it was the only CR10- that was probably a tactical mistake) - so that 172 of 'directing damage' and 162 of crippled (your mentioned the D6M's failed their shock rolls) -versus 196 (possibly higher - but feeding is 3:1 so it cancels out any Mauler fire) plus 15 crippled - assuming the 7 PDUS's died for 11 points each (i.e. all maulered), so 77.
So again - other than the PDU fighters, no Kzinti fighter (or Coalition fighter losses).
10 to 9 damage over your capital - even if it was just a single round over the capital (and a 1 was rolled), doesn't seem right.
The only thing I can think that might be happening is Trent is basically defending the minor planets with poor lines - when attacked with very good lines?
Your doing say 30 damage - and he is doing just say 14 damage?
So, checking over 1401 : -
Are you doing all your attacking lines for that 'round' and Trent is then doing his defending lines?
Is Trent aware until all planets are devastated and bases destroyed he does not have to put any ships up to defend a planet?
The planet may not do much damage - but the Kzknti can't afford to trade Carriers and BC's for a couple of crippled War Cruisers (and that seems to have happened several times).
Can you give details on the lines both sides have used in 1401 please?
On the Hydran front - Alliance turn 3 is basically the only real offensive fun the Alliance get (probably all game.....).
Just checking two things
1) One assumes the Hydrans did 'deploy' to the map, at the end of C3/prior to A3 - i.e. there is nothing the Coalition can do other than reacting and reserves to the Hydran deployment and turn.
2) Something for Trent - the Hydrans by far can produce the best offensive or defensive ship line until PF's (of a B10AA) exist.
But they have to be very very very very careful with their Heavy Cruisers, Tug and Dreadnoughts (Pal and LGE).
Basically they can't afford to throw them away - and so they are so expensive to replace (a Paladin in effect is 22 Ep's) - and the Hydran economy only goes one way - rapidly down.
(Yes using Free Fighters for the Hybrid Fighters to reduce the costs helps - but the Hydrans need carriers to allow them to hide their cruisers in non-relevant battles!)
They also have the problem - a very nice list of ships they can build - and a very modest economy - so unlike the Kzinti early on, they do have to choose between PDU's and expensive ships.
So how did the Hydrans deploy, what did they build and what Coalition ships got sent to the Hydran front on C3?
I did also mention it - what Anti-Expedition deployment did the Klingons do?
First - Hi Trent 
"Hi this is Trent I play the Alliance. For the Kzinti I made a CV group (CV+MEC+FKE). I substituted 9xFFs for bc, 2 CMs, CL, 5 FFs. I did that because I need 35 eps for repair. For the Hydrans I made a TG (tug) instead of a RN. I made a LTT (light tactical transport) to carry pallets. I made a FCR (carrier resupply ship) and 2 HNs (destroyers). I also made 3 CUs (frigates). I built 4 pdus at each capital. I am soooo excited that finally I have 2 empires.
In operational movement for Kzintis I moved my repaired cripples back to my capital. I did this so I have more SE (ship equivalents) in my capital. In operational movement for the Hydrans I attacked 0411 (The Enemy's Blood starbase) with my expeditionary fleet and my 2nd fleet. I attacked BATS 0413 with my home fleet. May have been an overkill? "
Three things - the Kzinti can sub the CL for 2 FF's - so you have any Ep's left, you might be able to squeeze another hull out.
The Hydrans don't really need FCRs - although having 1 or 2 available (and they start with 3) to add to Carrier Groups as additional Emergency Escorts to protect them in pursuit is good,
On the Hydran Front moves - I assume you pinned 212 - so they couldn't react into 411?
Protect the Cruisers and bigger ships..... they never last long
I don't think I kept the details on all the lines; overall my recollection is that the lines were pretty even outside the shipyard itself (he had 75 damage to my 30-something in the Shipyard hex, even rolling a 1.)
We read the rules on capital hexes through together several times so we had the sequence. He gets to respond to all my lines. However, he did stack his static in the shipyard very heavily, which left him short some ships elsewhere. So toward the end there were a few lines that weren't great for the Kzinti, on the order of 80 vs. 67 or something maybe.
[Klingons moved pretty much every ship that could to be able to react on the border. Home Fleet, as stated, is in 1212, TBS is on the southern end of the border, etc.]
[Moved.]
[Replying to Rich here:]
Trent didn't post his econs in full, but as I recall he had nothing left as the Kzintis; of course the repairs have to happen, he doesn't want to build less than 4 PDU, doesn't want to miss the carrier build, and doesn't want to drop hulls. And that was pretty much the lot.
I don't know; as the Kzinti I'd rather keep a few ships unrepaired if it meant I could build a few more CMs. The better escorts really add up (and 7 point hulls are really nice to cripple), and I'm probably not using all my cruisers every turn anyway. Depends on the game, of course, but I'd probably also sacrifice a PDU build to build 2MEC instead of 2FF.
Tough decisions - although the Kzinti can look slightly longer term due to Federation aid - either direct Ep's being sent or repairing ships.
MEC make such a big difference though to Carriers - the additional 2 Compot is crucial (over a CLE), but the extra 4 defensive compot (1 on each side and double for directing) may mean the difference between life or death in major assaults/defences.
So, pending Combat on CT4, some thoughts.
I have no idea where I am going to find ships to attack the Feds on CT7. Even assuming I take the Kzinti capital this turn, [and I don't know I really intend to seriously try, although I kind of need to at some point because the Hydran capital is probably not a thing (given that I am not removing PDUs this turn).] the Kzinti have 120+ SEQ of ships, meaning that even on defense the Lyrans probably need help holding them out of 1401.
I didn't leave anything behind to serve as reserves really apart from some new construction on BATS 1107 (mostly AD5's and F5E's, although there is a battle tug hanging out with them... probably staying there to be out of pin range?). AT4 could be ugly if I make a retrograde mistake or two, especially with three base upgrades to protect in Kzinti space.
I'm planning to build a D5V and convert another each turn through Y172, and then switch to D6U's, which is going to really murder the Klingon ability to... do anything other than make carriers. But I figure that this early in the game, carriers are really good, because they amortize their fighters over a longer period and prevent repairs for a longer period.
Pretty sure I can't do D6Ux2 every turn forever...
In regard to this turn, I think you stuck too many ships on BATS. Normally, you can kill undefended BATS with ~40 compot. I don't think that helps you going forward, though...
Forty compot?!?
I usually go high 20s to low 30s (have done as low as 23/0). Careful composition of battle force is key.
I mean, if I have no better use for ships I'll go higher, but I usually do.
The Southern Reserve was stuck on its starbase since the Hydrans didn't enter Klingon space on AT3 and couldn't reach anything but BATS this turn. The South Fleet was coming from the shipyard, so likewise. So, yeah, lots of Compot on the BATS, but it couldn't really get closer to Hydrax, so why not.
Maybe there is a way to get the S. Res. closer, but I didn't know it, so here we are!
Sorry to keep asking old turn questions - but it will hopefully allow you and Trent to learn how to play - as well as the rules
"AT3 OP Movement & Combat:
Contrary to the above, after doing some math about how many cripples he would have even after a successful Starbase assault, and the chances - he would be facing a 2-shift and a 141 COMPOT first Lyran line - of actually losing even with a bigger fleet, Trent chose to hit the border BATS and leave 0411 alone.
He got one of them with no cripples to plague him on the next turn, although a few good hulls were directed.
Lyran Losses:
Killed: CC, CW, FF, BATS 0413
Crippled: CF, CL, 2xDD, FF
Hydran Losses:
Killed: LB, LB, RN
Cripples: None. "
From the map you posted, it seemed the bulk of Enemys Blood you posted, was on 212 and 413 - and just the reserve on 411 - and I don't think you said much had been sent South to bolster the defences (so might be wrong).
141 compot is possible, but looks high from the limited information
Does Trent know how to pin forces first and then attack the actual target?
i.e. on Alliance turn 3
X Hydran Ships Pins 212
X Hydran Ships Pins 413
The SB assault force then attacks 411
Remembering the order in how to do things is really important - especially for the Alliance who are often outnumbered.
The other thing both sides can do is to do feints.
For example - with the above SB assault force could move to 412 (not declaring the move over) - and force you to react into 412 - thereby leaving the SB weaker - or then moves away and ends on 413 (remembering you can never react to something which has moved away).
By forcing the enemy to react into deep space - or leave forces uncommitted is one of the more challenging aspects of the game to understand.
Alas, IMHO the loss of 3 Hydran cruisers is not worth the damage they did (and don't worry, I did exactly the same in my game with William - the Hydrans lost too much in killing 413!).
Yeah, I thought the cruisers were a pretty tough loss, although the Lyrans lost a couple of cruisers too.
We actually played out the starbase battle for giggles; we both thought the Hydrans win in a walk, but due to BIR and low rolls, the EW shift made it pretty close.
Even with just the reserves, though, the Hydrans probably have to go 4-5 rounds over the starbase, losing big cruisers every time. 0413 is kind of a big deal though; it is the best supply point on the Lyran border.
[Neither of us are pinning enough/effectively/perfectly yet. We're doing better every turn.]
Yeah, well, with 40ish you take 2 or 2.5 EPs in cripples. With 30ish you take 3 or 4 EPs in cripples, and I usually don't feel like taking that much damage. It's not like most BATS suddenly become a problem if they're up for one more turn or even that you won't have the ships available to take them later. But yes, it depends on whether you have fighters available and a load of other things.
"So of course, over the shipyard, the Alliance rolled a '5' with 253 COMPOT and demolished everything in sight. I was facing a two shift so I barely got the 30 I needed and left 20 homeless fighters swinging to prevent a repeat in the second round. "
Well that's the first good Alliance roll - so long overdue
However, even this early, the amount of damage a Coalition line can take without killing anything significant is fairly impressive.
Battlegroups for example seem to have been 'made' for Coalition Capital Assault forces
3 x CW and 3 x DW can be killed for 60.
But thinking about it- the change to multiple conversions allows stacks of CC's now available and 5 CC's resolves 70 damage....
….. hadn't fully noticed that until now.
(And so with a DN, Mauler, BG and 5 CC's, Scout and 3 Drone ships - even a good Alliance roll will not kill multiple major ships - although I probably would forgo the Battle Group and have more CC/D7C's and another DN or 2....).
What change to multiple conversions?
Richard
i.e. pre-2010 a SB could do a 1 conversion - and so spending 2 Ep's (or for the Lyrans) limited the number converted - plus the time to get a modest number number of CC's was a lot longer.
Now - within 3 turns, all the Lyran CA's are pretty much CC's (or Better).
A dozen CC's over a dozen CA's now makes a difference.