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Archive through January 01, 2021
That's at least ten years ago. Time to think about what is and not what is long gone. YMMV.
[Replying to Rich here - read the thread titles folks.]
On CT4 the Hydrans kind of have a choice between being surrender monkeys and accepting cruisers being directed because the Klingons can put up a line of something like:
C8, D7x5, D6M, [D5x3, F5Lx3], D6S [Scout], D6D [4 DBB] which is 105/3 with just an admiral. At BIR=5, even middling rolls kill RN's or even LB's.
Graham
To add to your and Richards comments.
Your right.
There is one way and one way alone to not lose Cruisers.
1) Don't put them on the line 
As Richard said though, there are two ways which might protect them.
2) Use them when there are better targets
3) Generate minus points
Option 2) Will last until the PDU's are dead - and depending on what is going on, the Coalition may be happy to direct when the Hydrans are defending a SB...
...but I could never get option 3 to work - William would most of the time roll enough or have a Mauler to ensure a Cruiser could die - but on average, it should some of the time work.
Depending on which rule packs are used, there is also a 'compot' gap for the Hydrans.
A Carrier only line can generate insufficient comppt to do much to the Coalltiion (and a Coalition Carrier equivalent line has the same problem against a Hydran Cruiser only line).
Example
2 x TGV+2DE+CU, 6F from a 4UH, CU(F), SC(F) = 57/EW
That doesn't risk anything - but might not do much damage to any Coalition line.
(Yes, you can use a Paladin or CC/CA in Form - but a average+ roll might cripple it and you risk the hull in pursuit - Admirals and CP's may also help).
So the Hydrans have two choices.
Burn CA's and extract their point of flesh for each one direct killed - or use them as expensive paper weights and hide them.
When the IC/ID arrives (and the NEC and NSC's), they can increase their commpot and it gives more options - but generally, the Hydrans will often only end up with the short straw to pick.
Graham wrote:
>>On CT4 the Hydrans kind of have a choice between being surrender monkeys and accepting cruisers being directed because the Klingons can put up a line of something like:>>
The Hydrans are going to lose most of, or all of, their cruisers. The trick is to burn up the cruisers over fixed defenses (i.e. the capital or a SB) while you build up a carrier line force. If you can convert a few RNs into CVs, that is helpful; turn every single LN in space into a DE. If you have a couple of CVTs and a couple UH/CVs, you can put up over stuffed CV lines in open space/pinning actions/unimportant fights, generally risking only FFs as outer escorts. Preserve the cruisers for important fights over fixed locations, where they will be burned up, but hopefully, you'll be getting a beneficial tradeoff.
Trent did a pretty good job taking good trades; trading cruisers for Maulers/scouts/CC's isn't a bad trade because while the Klingons can replace maulers (and the Lyrans just built their first STT too), and the Hydrans have trouble replacing cruisers, the Alliance's "production" consists of the Federation doom train arriving on turn 7, not the Hydran production schedule.
All the Hydrans have to do is defend Hydrax and wait for the Coalition to take their foot off the gas to go fight someone else.
Starbase assaults, so far, have been universally fought between fleets. Neither of us have ever directed SIDS on a starbase (except when the SB was alone in the hex). As the Coalition, I have been happy to take directs + cripples to trade for directed Alliance cruisers. Even if I am taking extra damage (which is usually), I am trading a few EPs for the opportunity to trade cruisers, which is mostly good for the Coalition, at least at this point in the war. So I do it repeatedly until the Alliance decides to stop, or until I start worrying about repair capacity (and start dropping damage to push the fleet off the base).
Directing the SB sounds like a terrible deal [although I can see that later in the game, you might be willing to take a pile of damage to remove a Starbase even with relatively more equal fleets.]
So far, the Coalition has numerical superiority everywhere so it can be strategic rather than tactical.
> Neither of us have ever directed SIDS on a starbase (except when the SB was alone in the hex).
Surely this is incorrect? You don't have to direct SIDS; the defender simply has to take damage either on SIDS (for 4.5 each) or on defending ships or fighters. Directing SIDS is 4 times as expensive (18 each).
Heh.
Well, on the very first SB assault, due to a misreading of the rules, I did in fact direct SIDS at a lonely Starbase. It didn't matter a lot, but it happened.
[We figured out the SIDS process after that.]
Graham
" trading cruisers for Maulers/scouts/CC's isn't a bad trade"
I would two thirds disagree with that.
Yes, Maulers are worth trading a Hydran CA for - Scouts (outside of killing a Scout Tug or D6S on the line) are just not worth it - and CC's are only worth directing if it's the best target possible - but a Lyran CC for a Hydran CA trade is excellent news for the Coalition.
The Hydrans may well start with 12 CA Cruisers (plus afew CC's) - but they will not be building many for the rest of the game.
And the Lyrans can have easily 10 CC's on the Hydran front on C3...
On SB assaults and SIDS - SIDS are very expensive, but they do get the job done.
If there a SB that must die - and you can afford 10+ rounds of damage to kill it, that's what you have to do.
Example 75 Attackers v 50 Defenders+SB
If the Defender is happy to self cripple their entire fleet, the SB with average forces and average luck, will survive.
Therefore spending 8-10* rounds to SID the SB and 2-4 rounds to direct kill the crippled SB achieves the objective.
* - Less relevant if you have maulers, but if the enemy overcrippled, getting a net 18 might occasionally fail.
Then getting a net 36 might take afew rounds (or you SID it if 36 is unlikely).
Your fleet may well still ended crippled - but some of the enemy fleet will be crippled - but crucially the SB will be dead.
Graham
Checking two things
1) The Lyrans are going to be doing most of the repairs; the Coalition obviously has not enough repair on the line, so virtually all of the Coalition strategic movement was used to pull cripples back to repair capacity in the [Lyran, obviously] backfield.
If a Coalition ship moved (Operational, Retreat or Retrograde movement) a ship can't use Strategic Movement that turn - so the ships that was SM'd, were they already on the Base (and crippled from A3 or earlier) - or had they recently arrived?
i.e the forces crippled over 1401 can't be SM'd this turn.
2) Worse, my BATS in 1001 is probably doomed. But it's a small price to pay for the shipyard. (I had planned to retreat to 1302, but decided on 1401 to shield the Klingon MB on 1504 instead (I can't pin the entire Kzinti fleet out of both, and I kind of forgot that if I'm in 1402, the Kzinti move from 1401-1301 is AWAY and doesn't trigger reaction. I can stop him retrograding on map, but I can't stop him getting there.)
Not sure what you mean here (I assume you retreated to 1402..) - your right, the Kzinti can operationally move to 1301 and 1201 and get to 1001 without the 1402 forces being able to intercept them - and as long as there is a path to get back to 1401 (which may mean a Kzinti ship stays in 1301) - the attacking Kzinti forces should be able to get back to 1401.
This is where you may need to help your son and go through the rules to ensure your both happy in how the Kzinti can get to 1001 - and get back to 1401.
It may well be, he can't get to 1001 and back to 1401 and due to other battles and Coalition reserves 'winning' an intervening battle.
So the hones 'answer', is that he can't attack 1001 and keep 1401....
….which leads to in effect your comment about capturing the Shipyard.
The only way you can capture the Shipyard is force the Kzinti to retreat AND kill all the defences AND be able to garrison all the planets.
With the SB left, a good Kzinti fleet can still fight possibly and depending on what you go back into 1401 with, hold the hex for another turn.
The difficult question (and another key 'issue' the Alliance player needs to understand) is how long do you fight?
There is zero point in crippling the entire Kzinti fleet - holding 1401 for another turn, and then losing it easily the following turn and taking several turns to repair the fleet.
So, how many FRD's did the Kzinti get into the Barony?
Once they reach probably 2 turns worth of repairs - that's the time to run.
More than 2 turns of cripples (so possibly 40 Ep's of repairs*), means the Kzinti do nothing for several turns, which is not good for the Alliance.
(If the Kzinti can send cripples to the Federation, that can help - but the Feds need to be at limited War, so that depends on when the Coalition attack the Feds).
* - As with anything, flexibility can be applied, if by crippling another turn worth of repairs of Kzinti hulls, not only saves 1401 for a turn, but the SB in 1401 remains uncrippled... that probably is worth doing - as that will reduce some of the extra crippled ships).
It's a very fine balancing act - keeping key hexes for as long as possible, but not overfighting and in effect neutralising that Empire for several turns.
The Kzinti perhaps are more able to fight longer - as the Feds can repair the backlog - but the Hydrans need to be very careful - they are on their own...for ever.
1. We had forgotten this (I think we knew as of like, turn 2, and then it slipped our mind). Fortunately, no one had actually tried it. I just went back in with Trent since we were looking at his econ anyway and undid all the strat moves of cripples.
2. I will make sure Trent reads all this before Op. move on AT4; I'm not sure I'd explain it right. I hadn't thought through much of that either; I may not be as close to actually capturing 1401 as I thought, although I killed the PDUs, and that was the key thing.
I did not mention reserves above, because the Coalition used pretty much every last ship at its disposal. The only reserves are a few new construction Klingons on 1107.
Graham
1) Cool - the first full capital assault normally creates a significant back log so we probably caught it just in time.
2) Don't get me wrong, you can take 1401 when ever you want - the question is, strategically, is the cost worth it to the Coalition?
(Timing it right can reduce the pain and ensure the FRD park is safe etc).
More than 1 game has ended (or be reset to the start of the turn) when the Kzinti have done a major deep raid and killed a nice target.... only to find the retrograde back to 1401 is not possible and the capital falls (or would have) on the cheap - and the reserves/supply/retreat rules make it fairly easy for the Coalition to achieve this once in a while (or forcing the Kzinti to retreat.... to the Barony and so unable to retrograde back to 1401).
Did I say there is a steep learning curve to the game
Yeah, I actually think he can take 20SEQ or so and go kill my MB---> BATS and just retreat to the Barony when I eventually come to chase him off of 1001.
20 SEQ more or less probably isn't the end of the world over Kzintai; the issue is the fixed defenses, because I think the Coalition is happy to trade hulls forever with the Kzinti with mildly superior lines in open space (or over a devastated planet). Maulers make up for fighters (while both last) and the Kzinti can't dream of fighting without fighters.
We'll see what he decides to do, he wanted to sleep on his Op. move decisions last night.
Graham
This is where guidance for your son is needed.
There is zero point in the Kzinti putting any fixed ships outside the capital system - and probably zero point in using any mobile ships to defend devastated planets.
Remember, within the rules the defender of a Capital Hex system can decline any and all battles - until the point when no planets have any bases (and then they must put up a line or retreat).
So the Kzinti basically declines to put up any ships - until you come to the Capital Planet (with the SB plus possible some PDU's) - in other words, you have to come to him, on his terms.
If other planets still have PDU's, a judgment call has to be made - is it a raid (and they can be defended) - or is it a serious attack and the Kzinti needs to keep all their ship resources to defend the capital planet.
On 1001 - that's a tough call, nice to kill the MB>BATS upgrade, but if those ships are needed more in 1401 - who knows.
The answer perhaps is what is the likely smallest force that will achieve the mission - and would they be missed in 1401?
A BC led force of say BC, 2 x CVE, 4 x FF and a SF - if all it has to do is beat the garrison ship, Tug and MB, probably wouldn't be missed in 1401 - and so what Coalition reserves (even just 3 x F5 say might make a difference) can reach 1001?
We discussed this extensively (we've been taking long walks while I am on vacation from the office and only working a little in the mornings.) He's also read this thread.
AT4 summary going up soon.
You can put lesser value ships to defend things other than 1401 relatively safely.
Kzinti CVLs can have 3 escorts if you want, you can have two such groups plus another battle force slot for whatever to defend things. It can require an annoying to spare force to defeat it and then there's always the threat of a Kzinti reserve showing up and overpowering whatever came. Or a CVE and a couple CVE groups or whatever. As long as you leave plenty of cruisers and other good ships at 1401 you can get away with this.
Generally, which statements such as 'never put ships to defend outside 1401/SBs' is an easy policy to follow, it's better to judge it on a case by case basis. For example, through obfuscation of intention it might be possible for the Kzinti to keep one BATS or planet on the Klingon border by the start of A3, which greatly helps potential Hydran expeditions.
Ooops - Never do/Always do is wrong - I agree 'generally' is a better statement
On Kzinti CVL's - I find they are a middling ship - too valuable (i.e. it's a 12 compot unit) to send on 'raid' - but with modest escorts, not quiet good enough for a big battle line.
But 2 x CVL's, 2 x CLE's and 2 x FF's, - plus a SF do make a reasonable raiding force and other than Frigates - there isn't much to shoot.
(As your playing with AO - you can also send a FCR too - and if a Mauler led reserve turns up, which cripples a group*, you can insert the FCR for the pursuit battle to keep it safe).
* - Although a poor (i.e. CLE escorted) 3CVL group isn't easy to cripple still, 26 with a Mauler requires a good line and modest roll.
9 Fighters gives it a reasonable level of attrition and it can safely cripple the 2 CLE's if damage is left to fall.
Hence why 2 3CVL groups are not too bad
If you can include MEC's - they do become a lot better (i.e. 2 x CVL, 2 x MEC, 2 x FF and a SF is 41/EW1).
A single CVL group of CVL+CL or CLE or MEC+FFE or FF depending on available escorts is good for going after province holders. If a reserve shows up, you give up the frigate and run. Otherwise you can pretty much kill one province holder for each such group. Keep in mind that CVE+FCR (if available) or middle escort+EFF or FF works out to almost the same results despite the slightly lower compot for SSC assuming no reserve shows up, and if it does the FF or EFF dies and the rest escape.
Never built a CVL with kzinti in my life.
But always made good use of the 3 you have from start.
Raiding small target early, conversion into a better carrier later.
If the capital goes down, it's really cheap to upgrade them to CV, turning a middling carrier in a good carrier, gaining staying power and compot on the cheap when you're without shipyard.
Even better, if the capital doesn't go down, at least 2 of my CVL turn in CVD. Interdiction Carriers are really good, the kzinti one even better, and converting CVLs is the cheapest way to get them...
A few economic foulups are slowing the updates. AT4 Kzinti econ needs a fix because Trent realized that foregoing repairs to build more PDUs was probably not efficient, and Coalition econ is being fixed after the Coalition realized they were short of EPs after rereading the conquest rules. Nothing significant or requiring retconning, but we're going to be sorted out before we proceed.
Out of curiosity - what was the errors?
Also- how many PDU's remain on the Capital?
Going from 2 to 4 makes a modest difference (you might only kill 3 in the first round of the next assault.....)
...But I wouldn't forgo any key hull construction or key repairs (DN's and CV's) for them!
About Hydran cruisers. In addition to Richard's excellent suggestions, here are three more:
* Keep your Hydran CA together. If you have a line with 3CA and get one of them fried by dirdam, that just sucks. If you have 10CA on your line, and one of them gets fried, that is probably still not great, but at least you got a lot of compot in return.
* If you have a lot of Hydran CA on the line, there are a lot of situations where you should go low on the BIR. For example, suppose you have a 120ish-compot line with PAL+10CA, and your opponent has 75 compot. You might think you want to go high to do as much damage as possible. But this is likely wrong. What you probably want to do is to go low to prevent them from getting the magic 24 damage.
* Implicit in his other suggestions, but I'll say it explicitly: just because you can put some CA on the line, doesn't mean you should. In any particular situation, consider how likely it is they will get blown up, and also whether or not you are willing to have that happen. For example, if you are defending Hydrax and it's a close battle, then absolutely it is worth it. But in some battle you are losing no matter what, it may not be.
About repair expenses. Do not be afraid to skip builds. A lot of people seem to delay repairs so they can build up their fleet, and they can always repair it later. This is almost always wrong thinking. The number of uncrippled ships you have next turn is typically critical. My Klingons had a repair expense issue on turn 9 in a game I am playing right now. They skipped two builds and downsubbed a third from a CA to an F5. By not building two ships, and downsubbing the third, they had 19EP more for repairs, which allowed them to put maybe 10-15 more ships into combat on the next turn. So the number of uncrippled ships they had in the field went up by 10 or so.
Now you might object that by skipping builds, they could have had more ships further down the line. But that's the wrong way to look at it. By having more ships in combat, right now, they will capture more territory. This means they will have more EP, and the Alliance will have fewer. In short, if you think of crippled ships as a form of debt, then by not repairing, you delay your repayment, but you also pay interest in the form of territory that you could have taken/held with the extra ships.
Only 1 PDU on the homeworld. Going to 5 would be a big deal, but not worth 28 PDUs if it means downsubbing everything to FFs AND foregoing repairs.
I was counting EPs for conquered planets as if they were provinces. So each planet means an EP I have to give back (because planets don't produce an EP until the second turn). Not enough EPs (4 minor planets?) to really cause problems, but I need to correct my spreadsheet and make sure the planets are conquered on the right turns in sequence.
Glad I noticed this on turn 4 and not turn 14.
William raises some good points for Trent to read.
(Hopefully the number of comments is not overloading either of you, but equally it shows there rarely is a right or a wrong option and several choices inbetween).
With only 1 PDU, 21 Ep's is a lot to spend to get it to 4 and (1-3 has similar value really - they all will die and probably will die in the first round).
One thing we have mentioned it 'build ships rather than repaitrs', which is one tactic, but perhaps it would be better to say "what key hull is needed, which if I lose the Shipyard, I can't built for atleast 6 turns?".
Two hulls (for the Hydrans) that jump out sy perhaps should be build and less ships repaired are the HR (and TR's) and Pal.
The HR/TR's can become NSC and NEC's - the NSC (outside a Scout Tug) is perhaps strong enough not to be direct killed easily (the SC only takes 21 - and that's assuming it's in the Scout or Form box) and provides a modest level of EW.
NEC's are the best escorts in the game (currently) - 8 offensive Compot (so matching the Gorn CLE) and 10 defensive compot - with 3 attrition factors to help keep future repairs low.
Neither hull can be built at the Old Colony Ship Yard and building CW Minor Ship Yards is probably a waste of money (although there is a tactic to build several minor ship yards and a medium ship yard instead of a main shipyard) - and so if you lose the all defending 617 (like I did), you can't get these key hulls for a long while.
The other hull is the Paladin - not necessarily because it's a DN - but more that it can be converted on turn 10 to a ID - and give the Hydrans a 'safe' CR10 hull to lead counterattacks back onto the map.
(Paladin's and Battle Tugs can die relatively easily to a strong blocking Coalition force - at best 36 to cripple (in the Form box) - and then 4 to 8 to kill with a Mauler in the Pursuit Battle.)
Along with the ID (if you have enough EP's) it allows the Hydrans to have 2 CR10 Carrier Groups - which atleast will bleed the Coalition if they want to beat you back off map.
(i.e. you build a line of ID/IC+Heavy Escort+3 Light Escorts, Carrier Tug/UH+Heavy Escort+2 Light Escort plus CU's to then fill the line and a Scout - The Coalition kills a Light Escort a round and you have 6 rounds before you run out of CR10 safe groups - ad Hoc Escorts keep the cost lower - as 2.5 Ep's and a couple of fighters is a lot better than 3.5 Ep's and a few less fighters dead).
OK on the Stolen Ep's - 4 Ep's isn't much fortunately