Archive through January 09, 2021
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Archive through January 09, 2021
You can sub CWs for RNs at the OC shipyard. You can also convert existing CWs to NECs or NSCs offmap.
If you use an ENG, building single minor shipyards at a time is free.
In full game I tend to build a medium shipyard with the Hydrans and supplement it with minor shipyards. You can sub CWs into the CA/DN slots of the medium shipyard and finish a major shipyard later if you think you need the additional production and have EPs to burn.
Actually a NSC in the scout box or form box takes 24 to cripple. See (308.52).
Richard - Yep, but that's only 1 NSC - and only after X+4 after losing 617.
Aa Thomas mentioned, it might die also (Cripple and kill in pursuit, plus 36 is not impossible for the Coalition to get in a normal battle)...so you need more than 1 HR/TR to have escaped 
A formal Q&A was also asked on the Enginner Regiment and whether it can operate in the Off Map Capital area.... and it wasn't answered - but it could certainly be built before the main shipyard falls.
The main thing for the Hydrans though is without 617 - building a major (or medium) shipyard doesn't leave much for ships - and 8 Ep's (plus 3 free Hybrids) might take a turn or 2 to save up - hence converting for 3 Ep's is more affordable.
ENGs can operate in offmap areas. You may have Q&A'd it contending otherwise, but you Q&A a lot of crazy positions. You will probably get shot down here if it ever does get answered as otherwise ENGs are fairly useless for the Kzintis and Hydrans which I *seriously* doubt was intended.
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If the Hydrans are at the point where they have no cruisers, then they don't really need two NSCs, so it's a moot point.
If they have enough cruisers to really need NSCs you probably have multiple CWs surviving to convert.
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In such a case as you really need a better scout but have no CW you can build or convert, there is the lancer scout (2 fighter factors 2 EW) that can be built.
Richard
I actually now think the Engineer can be used on non 'Capital location' facilities - and the Off Map areas don't count as hexes, but as a related question was asked, I thought checking on both points was worthwhile.
On Cruisers - I am not so sure though - more so that if the Hydrans are off map - they may be using Carriers to form lines to annoy the Coalition (and protect what Heavy Cruisers they have left) and the NSC helps either from the extra fighters (i.e. more compot) and/or modest EW if playing with the EW rules.
It's probably also dependent on when 617 is lost - if it's turns 5, they will not have many - but 6 or 7 they might have enough,
On the DDS, it's an option - but being only EW2, a 4 pt Coalition Scout will be annoying!
The NSC in such situations helps the Coalition have a chance to blow up an expensive unit rather than an FF is how I tend to view it. Only 24 to cripple, then kill it in pursuit (or 36 for the kill outright).
While the Hydrans can develop more carriers, it costs them a fair number of SEQs to do so.
They can build hybrid RNs for 6 EP a turn if free fighter factors are available, getting 1 3/4 SEQ each time (or ragnars if they wanna).
Each carrier built costs double in resources for fighters (plus 2EP or ore for the carrier surcharge, plus escort costs).
It's a good idea to have SOME, but having lots probably hurts them more than helps them.
I tend to go for an ID or two, the three at start carriers and LNHs carrier variants (these have a discount in cost). Maybe a CV. This potentially yields 2ID CV 2TGV 2LNH-V GRV, enough to have three lines or so.
I try not to build too many DEs, I'll want NECs (or MHK-Es) as escorts in the long run and the DEs won't have as much to do. You can make DWEs, a few, to put them in overstuffed groups (such as ID+2MHK-E+DWE+FF) so that if you want to use them after an FF is shot off they take one less command slot).
Maybe have a couple AHs before DWEs come out for when you just have to have more compot.
Sorry for wall of text in a report from the front.
One thing about the replacement shipyard, it's an upgrade to a major planet or starbase and IIRC there's at least one of each in the Old Colonies ...
Three things
1) Might be worthwhile if we take the discussions topic (certainly partially my fault )
2)
Hydran Economics:
Treasury: 19.9
Lost EPs: 6
Gained EPs: 2
Survey Total: 31
Production
Ship Actual cost FFF
PAL activation 1 0
RN TG 7.5 0
2xHR 2xHR 16 0T
R TR 5 0
3xHN 3xHN 7.5 0
3xCU 2xCU, FCR 14.5 0
Total: 51.5
4 PDU over Hydrax: 28 EP.
Treasury End: 10.4
No free Hydran Fighters used?
The Hydrans could (and probably should) buy a Command Point for 5 Ep's - will be very useful over the capital (and probably should have bought one on A3 too).
Even if the Hydrans just use the Free Fighters on the TG and HR's - that would save the 7.5 Ep's (and reduce the Free Fighter reserve to 4.5 Factors - although its unlikely the capital will fall on turn 4, Ep's in the hand are worth more than unused Free Fighters...)
3)
"The Kzinti retook Minor Planet 1001 and destroyed an MB, Tug, and in-progress BATS upgrade. The Coalition cut off the units from the Capital but did not oppose them (15 SEQ!) with the one available reserve (which consisted of a Klingon BT and a bunch of escorts on their way to meet their carriers).
The Kzinti stay on 1001 for now accepting supply from off map. "
Just a reminder (in case it may be overlooked in the future) - forces on a friendly planet are in supply for combat purposes - even if the planet is cut off from the main supply grids) - and although you may not get replacement fighters (as they do require a link to the main supply grids), you can accept being cut off if your going to defend the planet or base (not MB's).
Trent is ostentatiously saving max FFF's for ID production/conversion, I believe, although we haven't discussed the details lately as I'm trying to stay out of his business since, you know, enemy empires.
Also, from the game thread, we fixed the PAL activation. People, post here, not in the game thread.
Remember Trent that while saved FFF can be moved OM with the tresaury, assuming there is a free strategic path to do so, they can't be saved for more than 1 full year. Y168 FFF must be used or are lost at the end of Fall 169, and so on. If the capital falls, the time needed to build a new shipyard will make all FFF go wasted.
BUT!
Hydran have 3 good way of using them while rebuilding the shipyard:
- Use them to pay hybrid factors on built/converted ship;
-Convert 1 CV;
-Build the IC (special rule let you build it without shipyard at discouted price).
Even without losing Hydra, the IC, while being outragiously costly, can be built in 171 (turn 6), 2 full years before the ID, and saving some Y170 FFF the cost isn't even that prohibitive...
Stefano
Not sure which 'Granny' the Hydrans will have sold to afford an IC without 617 falling
Fighter factors can be saved though.
The risk is the Coalition cuts the Strategic Path (which is very very very easy to do so!) from 617 to the Old Colonies.
As I found out (after blundering on a turn), it can't be adjacent to enemy forces unless it is a SM Node and you have more equivalents in it than the enemy has adjacent.
So a single Coalition ship in 118 would cut the path (even if there was Hydran ships there - and 617 was done first) - as the Path will be cut.
Up to 48 Ep's of Fighters (current year and previous year) is a lot to lose.....
Rules say the FFFs are evacuated with the treasury via supply path, not strategic movement path. See (442.62) and (511.352):
(442.62) ... The stockpile of unused free fighters is evacuated with the treasury in the event that the capital falls (511.35).
(511.352) If the capital has a supply path to another base or planet at the instant before it falls, the Treasury (430.1) can be evacuated to that base or planet; treat this as a transfer to a partial grid (435.24). If not, some of it can be evacuated by Orion smuggling (410.34) and the rest is lost; it cannot be captured. Any deficit (430.63) is evacuated automatically.
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Use the free fighter factors on conversions or (especially) LNH-Vs, imo.
Paul assuming you saved 8 FFF from the previous year the IC cost "only" 20 EP to build. At 6th turn, for a (better) CVA I'm usually willing to spend that. But there are thousands of consideration to put in line for that decision...
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Richard is right, a supply path is enough to transfer tresaury. Not as easy to cut, but still possible.
I'll really like to build a LNH-V as Hydran waiting for new shipyard, but it's not possible.
LNH can be converted from LN or sobstituted for the LN Old shipyard production, But the COG needed for the V function need at least a medium shipyard to be built...
Ok on Supply/SM to keep the free fighters.
I think 20 Ep's AND delaying 8 Free Fighter factors from turn 4/5 is also a lot for the Hydrans to give up.....
….accepting the IC is ideal to break the Hydrans off map or back onto map.
Sounds like two good choices can be made!
"Ok on Supply/SM to keep the free fighters."
Note that SM (strategic movement) isn't part of it at all, it's probably best not to reference it to avoid confusion.
What rule disallows the construction of an LNH-V at the old colonies shipyard? I cannot find such a rule and have no memory of such a thing.
Base rule of replacement shipyard:
(511.33) INTERIM PRODUCTION: During the period when no shipyard exists, the new capital can produce (each turn):
-One defense battalion or one mobile base.
-Unlimited replacement fighters and up to twelve PFs.
-It can also accumulate Economic Points.
-One major conversion if it has a starbase.
-Free fighter factors are NOT received.
-Tug pods and anything else not listed cannot be built without a shipyard.
Other production is possible, including starbase frigate production(431.5) and minor/medium shipyards‡
The Old Colony Shipyard has a specific exception for the LNH, that can be built as substitution of LN (or regularly converterd at the SB), but there is no exception for the HDW-COG needed for the V function: it falls on the "Tug pod and anything else not listed" category so is not permitted until you have a Medium/full shipyard again.
So Graham, what did your Son do in the end?
If it helps - it's far better to 'save Eps' than to save Free Fighter Factors.
…. i.e. 2 Ep's has more 'value' than 1 Free Fighter Factor - as FFF's can't repair ships, build the new shipyard or build a ship - and has a maximum equivalent value of only 2 Ep's, so you never gain anything be spending Ep's and saving FFF's.
P.S. Might help if we keep rules comments to the General Discussion, to avoid Graham and Trent getting confused (and yes, that goes for me too).
Stefano, the V-CoG is part of the LNH when it is constructed and not a separate item. It is not disallowed, imo.
Debatable. The HDW Rule (LNH one specifically quote it) says that to assume the V- Role you also need to have a HDV-COG. The fact that 99,9% of the time you build it togheter with the ship doesen't mean it's not a separate build, with his specific rule to be built (525.23V AO).
But I agree it's a corner case and might be worth a Q&A.
LNV reply in General Discussions...
The rule clearly says you can build an HDW (therefor an LNH or JGP) in (nearly) any mode without having to go through HDW modular conversion process.
The base hull is ITSELF using an HDW module, which by your interpretation would ALSO be disallowed. Clearly this is not the case, so clearly you can build any module as part of the HDW (LNH) at the time of construction unless explicitly stated otherwise (ie the survey module before the appropriate year).
The Hydran econ shown above (with the Paladin modificaton) is current. We haven't worked on the game a lot lately due to my job and holiday activities which must needs include other members of the family.
Graham
"In the capital, the Coalition fled a declined approach and retreated over 0718. "
What did the Coalition attack with?