Here is the link to the Q&A that allows both the Lyrans and KLingons, or any two or more empires to make a blockade run to the WYN hex on the same player turn.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, December 25, 2020 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Thank you Turtle; that isn't what is under discussion but the link does have on its page a ruling that one empire can only do one blockade run to the WYN per turn, which is what is being discussed.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, December 25, 2020 - 09:25 pm: Edit

Note that 320.5 is just blockade running, no other raid mechanic ... so 'excess' there has to mean another BR run...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 12:04 am: Edit

No.

The normal limit referred to here is the normal limit on raids (also referenced in 320.51). The rule below IS the rule that establishes there is one blockade run spot beyond the normal raid limit referenced in 320.51 - this blockade run slot is not defined anywhere else. It is mistaken to think the phrase 'normal limit' refers to the lone blockade run slot. The phrase instead defines the lone blockade run slot.

(320.513) Certain cargo ships, banned from raids, could be
put into the Raid Pool but used only for Blockade Running.
One cargo ship can be added to the Raid Pool in excess of
the normal limit. Foreign/allied ships, banned from the raid
pool by (314.132) could be added to raid pools (max one at
any time) but could only be used for one-way blockade
running missions.

Again, if you still disagree I invite you to take it to Q&A if you feel it is necessary.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 07:41 pm: Edit

OK, let's look at 320, starts with three types of raids, normal, special, and blockade running. To me that says that one starts with one BR slot. Now there's 520.513 that says I can make a cargo run in excess of (in addition to) the normal limit, which is one from 320.0.

That's my take, what's yours?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 07:58 pm: Edit

No.

(320.513) defines that extra blockade run slot with the sentence 'One cargo ship can be added to the Raid Pool in excess of the normal limit.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Sorry, had an interruption to take care of, but you do know that 'extra BR slot' means two of them, which is what I was saying ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Two of what? Blockade runs to the same location? It does not.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 09:59 pm: Edit

@Stewart: Suggest you bring it to Q&A. I agree with Richard for what it's worth.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 04, 2021 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Op moves were finished. The Coalition are attacking all the border stuff except for the SE Kzintis BATS and are also attacking 1001, 0902, 1304 (a pinning action) and 1504, there's a small open space battle at 1603.

All the border stuff under attack will be destroyed/captured, except for BATS 1004 where a Kzinti reserve showed up. Will probably cost the Coalition a couple of FF type ships plus sundry cripples at the various battle.

At 1001, the Lyrans capture the minor planet, destroying a monitor and taking some cripples.

At 0902, the Lyrans destroy the Count's SB. The Lyrans had a lot of ships here, the Kzintis had just a minimal defensive force (DN FF CV CVL CVE 3CLE 3EFF FCR FFG DF SAV SAS). The Kzintis lose the base and get 2CLE FFG crippled (all fighters destroyed), the Lyrans lose TGC(BP) BC CC and 4CWs crippled, maybe a fifth cripple, I forget. The Kzintis are forced to retreat to 0801 where they will be unable to get replacement fighter factors, most likely.

1504 falls for a cripple? and each side loses a small ship.

1304 and 1603 are unresolved, as are some border battles.

1401, 1202, and 1502 do not come under attack at this time.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 01:24 pm: Edit

CT2 is finished



Combat End:

Inclusive ESSC in 1603 between pinning forces, but Klingons retain the hex and so eat 2 EP by occupying the province.

At 1304, the Kzinti declined approach, so the Klingons (with nothing more than a pinning force) push off to 1405 (using newly converted 1506 as a supply point).

At 1005 I lose 2*FF, offered to the Kzinti War Gods and the reserve fleet that showed up. 4 Kzinti fighter pilots will live on in the annals of Kzinti heroes. The Lyran FF crews... they're own their own!

I thought I was very clever by cutting off Count's fleet. However, Richard selected 1005 carefully, as he retreated the reserve fleet after the battle and thereby put Count's fleet back in supply. Bravo Richard!



End of Turn:

Notables: Lyran Reserves (2 moderate) in 707. Klingon Reserves (2 powerful, SC2-lead) in 1506. A few other miscellanea ended up in 1506.

Lyran MB setting up 1506 (COE). Lyran MB setting up in 1411 (Tug).

Moved Lyran FRD (Far Stars) to 404.

Carried, but did not setup, Klingon MB in 1506.

Far Stars arrives at 109; some ships carried on to join the Lyran reserves. About 10 ships from TBS joined the reserves. The rest of TBS (9 ships) stayed at 2318.

Strat capacity maxed (10 Lyran, 15 Klingon), but no extra strat used and so no extra paid.

Lyrans transfer 19 EPs to the Klingons using 19 APTs.  (Lyrans built 20 of the suckers over CT1 and CT2, 10 each turn (the limit in the capital 408)).



Over to Richard for AT2.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Just checking as I coundn't see anything in the turn details...

..I assume 1506 joined the Lyrans/Klingons after a Dip Team visited them?

But as it joins that empire of the following player turn, it can't be a Strategic Movement Node until turn C3?

(Accepting it says next player turn and immediate - but I found this : -

NEUTRAL PLANETS
Q: The rule in (540.251) states: “...the planet (and its defenses) have joined the team’s empire at the start of the next player turn of that empire (immediately)...” It also states: “Note that if the planet joins your empire it is treated as a part of the adjoining fleet and if that fleet is inactive the new planet is in an inactive fleet area, but defenses can still be added to the planet and it produces income for the gaining empire.”
Rule (540.253) says: “If a neutral planet joins an empire, it produces income and can have PDUs added up to the normal limit, but is not part of the supply or strategic movement grid until the turn after the empire is at war with or allied to the other adjoining empire.” )

So the question is - how did the COE (I assume this is Corp of Engineers - 541) and MB get there?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 02:07 pm: Edit

@Paul, yes. 1506 flipped Klingon on Eco of CT2.

Richard and I think that 1506 became a Klingon supply point right away when it flipped. At least, I *think* I'm correctly stating Richard's opinion, at least because he allowed me to retreat a fleet using 1506 as a valid supply point (and I did call that out explicitly when I did it).

This rule is horribly worded. Why use "immediately" if it is the "next turn?" That makes no sense.

I believe Chuck just ruled that the *income* does not arrive until the next turn, CT3.

Therefore, it is possible that Zursk is not a supply point until CT3. However, the ruling does not affect *supply status* - which is entirely different. There are plenty of cases, for example, where a devastated planet provides supply but no income for the owning player.

Unless Richard objects, or SVC or Chuck want to chime in, I believe it is reasonable to believe that a newly flipped neural planet is a *supply point* "immediately" upon being flipped when supply status is later checked.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. But I do recognize that if, for some reason, you are right, then it would not be permitted to move my units there by strat, or to have retreated Northern Reserve at 1304 in the manner I did.

-T

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 02:42 pm: Edit

540.253 seems pretty explicit on when it joins that Race - so I think the easy answer is the force that retreated to 1506 as a supply point was incorrect (although it's possible the direction it would retreat in would be the same).

Chuck confirmed you don't get the Ep income immediately* but no question was asked about 540.253 and so as it stands, you certainly can't claim it as a supply or SMN until the following turn.

i.e. just delete the word "immediate" from that rule section and it reads correct.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 03:29 pm: Edit

I'm going with Ted on this one for now.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Well, 540.253 is pretty clear. I'll raise it with Richard.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Assuming Richard agrees, the following changes are mandated by my inability to use 1506 as a supply point this turn:

Northern Reserve must be in 1305 (1307 would be the closest supply point and thus must have retreated to 1305 after fighting in 1304).

All Coalition units in 1506 (other than the PDUs) are moved to 1507. This includes the two reserves

The Lyran MB is NOT setting up in 1507, but it is carried there with the tug.


As a side note, from a practical perspective, I believe that the *sole* effect of these changes is to delay setting up the Lyran MB in 1506. Which *does* have some impact, of course, but this is no game changer.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Your proposal is acceptable.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 05:15 pm: Edit

In a bona-fide miracle confirmed by the Vatican, Richard, Paul, and I all agree that 540.253 means that Zursk (1506) is not a supply point on the turn it flipped Klingon.

My proposal for the fix is deemed acceptable and is made so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeo3ISj8DaQ

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 10:14 pm: Edit

A2 Alliance ecos

*Federation:
*Income: 3DIP EP(3415) + 2DIP EP.
*Treasury: 5 DIP EP.
*Production(PWC) to 3rd Fleet:
CVB DE FFE FFS

*Hydrans:
*Income: 4DIP EP.
*Treasury: 4DIP EP.
CALL UP: PGS(OM)

*Gorn:
*Income: 3DIP EP.
*Treasury: 3DIP EP.
*Production(PWC) to Home Fleet:
HD BD BDS

*Tholians:
*Production: 2919:
DN PC

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 11:08 pm: Edit

A2 SY169 Kzinti eco:
*Start survey total: 14.
*Survey roll: 10+1(HR survey).
*New total: 25.

*Treasury 17.125. 6FFF(end of A1).
*C2 Salvage: FFG MON SAV SAS(3.125).
*Treasury 20.25 and 6FFF(end of C2)
*Drone stockpile: 40.

*Income:
*On map (outside capital hex): 44 - 4 (disrupted) - 4(cap prov) - 9 (cap min) = 27.
*Off map: 17+2.
*Capital: 32.
*Captured nz: 0.
*Captured provinces: 0.
*Captured planets: 0.
*Other income: 0.
*Total income: 78 and 12FFF.

*National debt: 0.
*Borrowing limit: 15.6.
*Interest: 0.
*Interest payment: 0.
*Current treasury balance: 98.25,18FFF.

*Production:
12 CV(sub BC,6FFF)
12 2MEC
7 FFK(1304) FKE (sub DD)
7.5 3FF
5 CP
28 4PDU(Kzintai)
0 Activate PT
0 (3FFF) Activate DDV
Callup POL (1003).
2 Callup FLG (1401).
3 Survey slot
----------------------------------------
76.5 Total


*Conversions:
5 (1401) BC->SR
3 (1304) CL->CLD
3 (OM) BC->BF
1 (1704) FFK->FKE
-------------------------------------------
12 Total

*Repairs: None.
1 PT(1401)
Depot BC FFK enter depot
-----------------------------------------------------------
1 Total

*EPs Borrowed: 0.

*New Borrowing Limit remaining: 15.8.
*Current debt: 0.

*Treasury: 98.25 - 89.5 = 8.75. 9FFF.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 06:18 pm: Edit

*Hydrans:
*Income: 4DIP EP.
*Treasury: 4DIP EP.

??
How do two Hydran DIPs generate 4 EPs?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 06:47 pm: Edit

They don't, they generate two. The other two EPs come from Fed and Gorn DIPs at 0617.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Two optimization questions.

1. Given exhaustion, does the math on survey ships work out? Each survey ship means a province every 6 turns, more or less, so one third of an EP per turn, less exhaustion. This costs 13-odd EP (plus a build slot) which means that even before exhaustion, you're looking at 40 turns before you make your money back. What am I missing?
2. Why convert an FFK rather than an EFF to FKE when FFK upgrades are limited and EFF upgrades are not? [An FFK as an ad hoc escort is 2-5, rather than 2-4, too...]

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 09:09 pm: Edit

1. Compound interest.
2. It doesn't matter, I'll get the EFF on a later turn. Both ships are inactive until C7 in all likelihood.