Archive through February 03, 2021
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Archive through February 03, 2021
Okay, so this combat phase has been a bit of a comedy of errors...
#1. The Coalition attack the capital with almost 100 ships, enough to pin the reserves (or almost all of the reserves) and, having credited themselves with great cleverness, retreat over 0718 with a clear majority of their fleet, taking the planet but doing - absolutely nothing - with 100 ships by retreating without actaully devastating any planets or killing any PDUs.
#2. The Alliance has lost some valuable hulls (to be summarized later) defending indefensible BATS and Starbases. The Coalition has put up good lines in the battles it bothered to fight, and the Hydran fleets haven't really been prepared to match them.
Silly question 1...
...how did the Coalition retreat over 718 - as normally 616/716 are closer to a supply point (although a Supply Tug/Convoy 818 or 919 might allow it to occur) - and also, if there was an equal supply line without enemy forces in, the only way to get to 718 would be fighting retreat (and so the Coalition would have to retreat again.... unless 718 had been captured on a previous turn?)
2 - The Alliance doesn't really have the strength to fight over BATS - and certainly cant't afford to lose Cruiser hulls.
So saying the above though - when does the Coalition aim to capture 1401 or 617?
1. The Coalition was apparently counting a retrograde point in 1106 as a supply point. This doesn't affect supply status, but it does make 0718 an illegal retreat, so Trent gets his planet back and the 100 ships are even more useless this turn (they retreat to 0717 by force).
2. Wasn't cruisers, really, but a couple of Pegasus scouts died.
Morning
Just checking one of the major beneficial rules of capital defences is being played correctly, as it would be unusual for the Kzinti to run short of fighters* :-
"The shipyard Starbase is pristine, and has the only 12 remaining Kzinti fighters in the hex in its bays. The Kzinti still have a lot of ships, but have to decide how often they want to put CV groups - with no fighters - on the line to protect the shipyard. "
Which is - fighters can be transferred from one destroyed base to a new base. which is within that hex.
What normally happens, is PDU's die - and some of those fighters from the PDU's will find new homes (which can be an advantage - and a disadvantage if you was wanting the 'involuntary' owed points).
As an example - a Major planet in 1401 is attacked, with has 3 PDU's left - and the Defender doesn't want to risk losing ships - and so the planet is left on it's own.
30 Damage is done - which the Attacker lets fall.
Defender takes 9 on the PDU's, 10 to devastate the planet and 11 Fighters die.
The balance of 7 fighters then go and find new homes on the Kzinti Carriers.
* - Its possible the Coalition could have directed on some remaining fighters, if the Kzinti had self killed too many (as running out of fighters is one way to lower the compot of your enemy - the Tholians are vulnerable to this).
So, easy question, how did all the Kzinti fighters die (or technically, all but 12)?
> Defender takes 9 on the PDU's, 10 to devastate the planet and 11 Fighters die.
I don't think you can do this - you have to take damage on fighters immediately after their carrier dies (with the exception of directed damage). So in that battle, you actually take 9 on PDUs 12 on fighters and 9 on the planet, and the attacker needs another round to devastate.
To be a bit more accurate, you have to take damage on potentially homeless fighter factors. You can't not do this. However, if there was room for the fighter factors elsewhere, then you could do what was described.
Sam - as always, I might be wrong, but the following was a ruling.
"(501.72) LOST CARRIERS: If the carrier is destroyed or crippled and the fighters cannot be transferred by (501.6), they are given up as casualties immediately at that point in the Combat Round; see (308.23) and (302.614). See (502.45) PFT damage. "
So, in effect what happens (I believe) is (302.614 is the key - I think, so in effect your transfer or kill the fighters, then kill the PDU)
1) Self Kill a PDU for 3
27 Damage to resolve - but before any of that can be resolved, the fighters must be accounted for so
6F are transferred to new carrier (PDU/Base/Ship
2) Self Kill a PDU for 3
24 to resolve so transfer or take as damage. From my example 1F can find a new base and so the other 5F are taken as damage.
3) Self kill a PDU for 3, 16 to resolve.
6F die as no home for them
4) Balance of 10 damage is take on the planet to devastate it.
But might be totally wrong!!
So, at the outset of the conflict in the capital, we did a manual count - not trusting VASSAL because we had a brief flirtation with VASSAL's fighter counters and weren't sure we filled them back up again (getting VASSAL to refill fighters at the beginning of player turns in the sequence of play would be nice). So we had a count of:
1. Total Kzinti fighters in the hex;
2. Total Kzinti fighters available in the shipyard system.
With that in hand, it's pretty much impossible to "lose" fighters (or minus points). We finally finished the capital, so I'll post the end of CT5 soon. Every Kzinti fighter in the capital hex was eventually killed, and all sides have immense backlogs of cripples (mostly the Coalition, who not only took more damage but directed more often, because you feel silly not directing if you are risking a mauler.)
All three D6M's in the fight eventually shocked out, although only one of them on the first try this time, which was nice.
Might be wrong on my above post - brain is tired!
Have read it 4 times and get a different view every time.
Oh right, totally forgot about transferring fighters. That's my bad.
Well, hopefully your son will not be too upset over losing 1401, the only hope of the Alliance holding 1401 or 617 is between 'no hope and Bob Hope' 
(As I am watching the last Season of Vikings - the saying for today would be "King Canute trying to hold back the tide had a better chance of success than the Alliance does in holding both")
The key is - what can the Kzinti now do in revenge...
...and looking at the crippled list - he perhaps stayed 1 or 2 rounds too long?
Assuming both FRD's survived - 3 1/2 turns of repis is a lot - but by repairing 3 x CV, 1 x MEC, 2 x CLE and most of the EFF and FKE's will allow the Kzinti a chance to sneak round the flanks immediately (double Light Escorts the groups if need be).
The Kzinti now need to be mobile and hit the Coaltiion where they are weaker...
(Unless 1401 is held weakly and the Kzinti can try to recapture it - but both sides get to reburn all their fighters then!)
He's okay, and I agree I thought he stayed too long; at the end the Compot/EW situation was roughly equal. I will put up a note on the rolls, but over the shipyard he rolled something like 6, 6, 6, 4, 1, 3, 6, etc... and he kept the 2-shift for a while (somehow all of my D6D's are in the south?)
He's excited about the Federation entry into the war. The Kzinti "Attack Fleet" (one of our running gags is how some factions have drastically better names for fleets than others) is cut of in 1001, but it also technically has a free shot at the Lyran backline and is still like 22 SEQ led by a DN. So that's a thing. I'll post a map.
But the Kzinti -with fighters restored- could seriously consider trying to get back into 1401, as while they would be even more outnumbered than last turn, they could put up 18 fighters on every line and just take escorts as cripples and continue to worsen the Klingon repair situation.
Well, this is why F&E is so much fun!
Choices, choices, choices.
Couple of hopefully relevant points.
1) Federation at best will enter on turn 7 - so that's still 2 Alliance turns away.
At worst, the Federation will not be able to help repair those ships until turn 10 though - under 'full war', only an Expeditionary Fleet can enter Federation space - Feds could send a Fed Tug and FRD to Kzinti Barony space, but that will not arrive until the end of Alliance turn 9.
(and Ep's would need to be sent too - as Off Map areas are not supply grid linked).
If the Coalition don't attack - Kzinti can send crippled ships into Federation space (limited to repair capacity etc) - but getting them there may be difficult if the Coalition cuts the Marquis area.
So those crippled ships are not coming back any sooner than they currently are basically.
The 1001 Kzinti forces - I assume the Coalition Op moved something into 1101 - as it one of the harder hexes for the Coalition to retreat into - as West, South or 1202 are likely to be the closest Supply points.
But your son could pay a couple of Ep's to give the forces full supply (they count as 'in supply' in the hex, as its a friendly planet - but as soon as they move off the planet (and its not linked to a main supply grid), they count as out of supply for combat and movement etc - one of the major game rule clarification in the last 2 years).
So - lots of targets - and getting 1001 back into full supply will help.
BUT -
1) Every Ship killed is NOT going to get replaced soon (2 FF's per turn, until the Marquis SB dies - and it's a minimum of 6 turns to replace the Main Ship Yard).
MEC's are now even more valuable.
2) That crippled list.
It's only going to get longer, until the Feds arrive. So care needs to be taken.
A 'crippled' Kzinti fleet gives the Coalition far to many free choices in what to do in the North*.
So whats the uncrippled Kzinti fleet like?
* - And if the Coalition want to hold it 1401, it may allow them to build bases in 1401!
I'll make sure Trent reads all this too before he moves on AT5.
But, yeah, one of the reasons I was happy that he stuck around was that I figured that even if my repairs were as far behind as his... at this point they are already going to affect CT7 attacks on the Federation because I have underbuilt FRDs... the ability to win approach battles in 1401 was going to be huge if it allowed me to get a BATS or even a starbase up on the shipyard system.
[That could partially recompense for my mistake of choosing Kzintai over Hydrax in the first place...]
The Coalition has almost no forward repair capacity in Hydran space [one Lyran FRD intended for the south was instead sent to 1202], so I am intending a slow, efficiency-focused roll on the Hydrans. Giving the Hydrans a few extra EPs (and a shipyard) is going to be necessary because I don't have the ability to fight over another shipyard... I have Kzinti front vessels under repair in 2318 for heaven's sake...
So we have played through AT5 and I am awaiting a writeup from Mr. T for the turn before I post something in the game thread. Short version is that the Alliance got feisty, and did pretty well due to some fairly significant Coalition blunders. Nothing really significant (two open space fights in Hydran territory, and the Kzinti took out a Lyran BATS, but more cripples for the Coalition, and losses very much under control for the Alliance.
CT6 econ question.
The OOB says that the Romulans pay the Klingons 13 EP on CT6. Do the Klingons, like, actually get those EPs? And if so, can they spend them CT6?
Asking for a friend. Not like I have 100+ EPs of repairs to fund this turn or anything.
Hi Graham
Yes on the 13 Eps.
The second payment of 5 Ep's doesn't go to the Klingons though and just vanishes.
Yes the Klingons get 13 EPs from the Romulans but it arrives after production (like any other EP transfer or ship sale) ...
The 5 EP payment (by the Romulans) for is the actually conversion (C8/KC9) ...
Of course it does.
I just redid the Klingon economy with 13 extra EPs based on this from the 2006 Q&A:
"Dave Butler: Regarding the note in (704.2) about Romulan payment for the KC9, when (i.e., during which game phase of T6C) are the 13 EP added to the Klingon economy? Also, do they show up as part of the general economy, or are they dropped as a Satelite Stockpile at one (or more) of the hexes on the Klingon-Tholian border?
ANSWER: The 13 EPs are paid in the economic phase of turn 6, as the rule states delivery by tug is not necessary, they appear on the klingon books on the economic phase of turn 6. They show up as part of the general economy in the main grid.
Suggest changing wording to, "The Romulans pay the Klingons 13 EP in step 1 of turn 6..." (J. E. Schaff, 06/03/06)"
Back to the drawing board... time to cause a temporary recession in Shipyard City.
[Final total of actual repairs to be performed (leaving a sizable backlog of cripples): 114 EP about evenly split between Lyran and Klingon econs. A hundred and fourteen EPs, and there's probably another... 50-60 outstanding. Fortunately, it seems unlikely that CT6 (or AT6) will add to the total too much; the Hydrans can't force me to fight when I don't want to, and the Kzintis, who can, can afford extra cripples even less than me.]
Well, obviously I did it without the EPs but there is this too, which Chuck responded to without gainsaying it.
"By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, September 03, 2015 - 11:45 am: Edit
Possible new I Row, space permitting (704.1) Delivery of Ships (C8 to the Romulans, for example). The 13 EPs the Klingons receive on Turn #6 is received during the economic phase, as tug delivery is not required. However, for regular games, this is a one time event and may not be worth the space. Instead, consider adding an I row designated as "miscellaneous income" and reference rule 704.1 as an example for this category. Another example of miscellaneous income could be the Hydran Guild treasury (442.4) or the Tholian Dyson Sphere (511.21). Ted Fay 9/4/15.
Edited to add other examples of miscellaneous income."
Interesting rabbit hole, but for now the Klingons are putting off the EPs.
Looking at my pin count list tonight, it looks vaguely feasible that I can still put a big attack into Federation space on CT7.
Here's the vague situation:
Kzinti Offmap:
1st Reserve: 13 SEQ
2nd Reserve: 14 SEQ
Home Fleet: 45 SEQ
Coalition North:
1401
Klingon North Fleet 62 SEQ
Lyran Foremost Fleet 29 SEQ
1202:
Klingon NE Fleet 9 SEQ
Klingon Emperor's Fleet (FRD's and 8 cripples)
Lyran Fire Squadron 18 SEQ (plus FRD's and ~20 cripples)
1504
Klingon Northern Reserve Fleet 17 SEQ
1102
Klingon Northwest Fleet 20 SEQ plus one Lyran DWS
0905, 1107, 1307, 1507, 1509: 12 SEQ (plus 22 SEQ of cripples in 1307,1407,1507)
1105
Lyran Home Fleet 9 cripples
Totals:
Kzinti 72 SEQ
Klingon 111 SEQ plus about 32 cripples
Lyran 47 SEQ plus about another 30 cripples and ~35 hulls being repaired in Lyran space.
In the South:
Hydran:
0215 Old Colonies Squadron 36 SEQ + 2 SEQ of SB fighters
0617 Gold Fleet 90 SEQ + 2 SEQ of SB fighters
0617 Copper [cripples, FRDs, etc.]
Klingon:
0616 West Fleet 132 SEQ
1116 South Fleet 17 SEQ
D7's in 1013 and 1214
Lyran:
0411 Hidden Dagger Fleet 31 SEQ
0414 Enemy's Blood Fleet 17 SEQ
Northern active forces:
Lyran:48 SEQ
Hydran: 126 SEQ
Klingon: 151 SEQ
In addition to this, the following look to be available on CT7:
10 SEQ that were repaired or built at 2318 and 1716 this turn;
39 SEQ from the IWR Squadron;
30 SEQ in the East Fleet;
22 SEQ of new construction this turn in 1411.
So, vaguely, it looks like:
I can leave the Klingon and Lyran forces in Hydran space in place and expect them to be able to hold the Lyrans, on offense, as long as I take it slow.
I have a local superiority over the Kzinti which should be possible to maintain without a lot of additional construction in light of the shipyard going down.
If we count up:
17 SEQ [South Fleet - can go East]
14 SEQ [1509 and 2318 and 1716]
39 SEQ [IWR]
30 SEQ [East Fleet]
22 SEQ [New Construction]
70 SEQ [North Fleet and Northern Reserve Klingons that can be spared]
30 SEQ [Klingon cripples able to be repaired in range]
---
222 ships.
Looks like maybe I can get there. We'll see!
Only 1 Squadron of the IWR is released each turn (unless Alliance force get next to 1411, IIRC) - so if you attack the Feds on Turn 7, you get 13 on each of turns 7, 8 and 9,
Not a huge difference - but something.
"In the other OS battle, I was trying to protect an SAV (which I forgot about and left out in a forward fleet). So in the first round, we both directed big hulls, and I also self killed a CW to take minus points into the "slow retreat" round and avoid a "fast" pursuit round. This saved the SAV, and got me back to even on kills when I got another cruiser in the "slow retreat" round. "
Just checking you noticed with a Slow Pursuit Battle, the pursuer picks both BIR's - a single SAV is unlikely going to survive the battle round - even with 6 owed points.
Sounds like Hydrans got lucky with their crippled Paladin though.
True on the IWR, I knew that but forgot to include it last night. But new construction on CT7 will help too. And it is certainly possible to be more aggressive pulling ships out of 1401...
We are coming to the end of "The Wind", and I will post comments on the scenario after we finish AT6, but for now...
Turn six, unless the Alliance gets really rambunctious, which Trent hasn't been inclined to do so far, appears likely to be the calm before the storm, as the Coalition is happy to fix cripples and recover from the capital assault.
On the Hydran front, I am following my "slow but steady" plan, working to use pin count and spacing to make efficient progress without having to fight the Hydrans over hardpoints any more than absolutely necessary.
I seriously considered moving the Lyran FRD from 0411 to 0613 (rather than BATS 0112) or setting up the Klingon MB in 0615 (which I think is the location I want eventually), but in either case, I did not think I could pin the Hydran Gold Fleet (90ish SEQ in the capital) out of those hexes. So we are delaying the process a turn and waiting to combine the Lyran and Klingon fronts on the Hydrans as planned since CT4 another turn.
[I could arrange to pin the Hydrans out of those hexes, but not also keep them off the Klingon FRDs in 0814... which was even more critical.]
In the north, I didn't separate the Marquis from the offmap, which maybe I should have done, but since after next turn we confidently assume there won't BE a Marquis province, this isn't quite as worrying.
Question for the peanut gallery: The Federation offmap is connected to the main grid only at 2701-2801-2901-3001-3101, correct? Not all along the border?
Correct on the Off Map connection.
Pinning the enemy out of key hexes.... how many times have I failed on that?
Remember ships out of range of the target hex can move to the adjacent hex and help the main fleet through....