Saw your comment in another thread, re: MB in Coalition Capitals.

I always set up MBs in matching Coalition Capital hexes (i.e. a Lyran in Klingon Capital and a Klingon in Lyran Capital) to make strat moves free (so when you are sending money here and there, it doesn't take extra strat moves); it also provides extra supply opportunities for, like, Klingons in southern Lyran space (helping with Hydrans) and creates a supply web for Lyrans in Klingon space; I will generally put Lyran MBs through Klingon space, giving them supply points for dealing with the Feds (and possibly Tholians).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 02:46 pm: Edit

I had just been paying for the extra strat (in part because I'm almost out of MB's after losing one during setup on 1001 and setting up in 1401, 1401, 1202, 1504, and 0615.) I have a Klingon MB in 1813 waiting to establish permanent supply in range of Earth and a Lyran MB in 0615 probably to be set up [somewhere between 0617 and the Hydran offmap but also within 6 of BATS 0212.]

I would dearly love for the Klingons to be able to just go fight the Feds and let the Lyrans handle the Hydrans and Kzinti, but that does not appear to be realistic, as the Lyrans do not have the hulls to handle the Hydrans (unless they ship their entire fleet south - and even with my significant investment in static defenses against the Kzinti, that isn't happening).

Given that the Lyrans have their hands more than full with the Hyd/Kzi, is there a reason to float their boats all the way to the Federation? I have been planning to just leave them on guard duty and let the real empires (see joke above) fight the real wars.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Well, there are a sizable number of Lyran specialty ships (read: DNs) which are particularly useful in taking hard points but less needed to keep the Hydrans cooped up. Similarly, STTs are more valuable killing PDUs than cruisers. Do you need large Lyran fleets in Federation space? Maybe not. But ignoring the benefits of the big Lyran ships does put more strain on the Klingons.

It's a balancing act, as are many things, as not putting any CR10 Lyrans in Hydran space would be capitalized on. I'd bet that there are valid strategies either way.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 04:51 pm: Edit

Generally as the Coalition I try to arrange to have some Lyran DNs/BCs/CCs/STTs available to help pound Federation hard points, but this also depends on what is going on in other theatres. If I can arrange in on C6, I try to have some of these in position where they can strike at Cygnus, the Kzinti <arquise SB, the Fed 4th Fleet SB or the Fed 3rd Fleet SB. It complicates Alliance defense on turn seven.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 06:49 pm: Edit

>>Given that the Lyrans have their hands more than full with the Hyd/Kzi, is there a reason to float their boats all the way to the Federation?>>

Yeah, I like to have Lyran MBs through Klingon space a lot of the time, but then, I also generally see fewer cripples than you are seeing (a lot more direct killing in my games on both sides).

Last game, the Lyrans had a SB in 1407 (making ComCons a lot more efficient), MBs in 1411 (KLI capital), 1716 (KLI SB), 2318 (KLI SB), and then in 2915 with a KLI SB and ROM SB (which was a terrible place to put those SBs, but where they ended up). And probably another one near the Hydrans (1013 or 1214).

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Upgrading the Klingon BTS 1009 (by Turn #6) doubles the CC income (from four deliveries each to eight) and is reasonably safe (once those border BTS are destroyed) and can be just the basic upgrade (without extra fighters).

Payment can be made from ship sales (notably the C8) and Lyran assistance along with captured territory (and don't forget the possible ENG discount) ... [almost forgot, (653.1A) may be of use]

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 07:24 pm: Edit

So, full disclosure.

Until, like, last week, we totally spaced on COMCONs, which are in the rule sets we are using but we had neglected to take advantage of at all because you can play the game and nothing actually happens to remind you they exist. Oops. The Klingon shipyard, in particular, has been running under capacity due to all the repairs. That's on our pre-game discussion agenda once I stop working sometime Friday night. We may retroactively deliver them, we may just decide they all got shot and the commerce people gave up due to the insurance premiums.

[If someone has an idea what the best way to deal with that is, we're listening.]

Meanwhile, ship sales and ENG aren't in our ruleset [see post #1].

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 08:05 pm: Edit

You could just credit folks with money.

The assuming the Fed and Kzinti ComCon is off map, the Kzinti get 10EPs on T4, and the Feds get 10EPs on T8.

The Klingons and Lyrans have to move on the map, and assuming no extra SB and nothing weird happens, the Lyrans get 10EPs on T4 (1411>0608), the Klingons get 10EPs on T8 (0608>1411). So as I think it is just T8 at this point, everyone is just up 10EPs, and now you can put ComCons on the map from here.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, March 04, 2021 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Sounds eminently sensible.

Turn 9 econs will include those, then.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 07:26 am: Edit

Like, with the ComCons, if you build infrastructure (i.e. starbases) in convenient locations, you can speed up the ComCon income. As noted, I had a Lyran SB in 1407, so as long as the ComCon could move between 1407 and 1411, the Klingons and Lyrans doubled the speed at which they got ComCon money (and as such, doubled their income); there is a minimum trip of 2 turns (which might be expressed in hexes), so you can't just put two starbases in the same hex and instantly get the money every turn, but if you have two allied starbases 4 hexes apart, you are getting a big income boost (in the long run, I also had a Romulan SB in 2915, which made the Klingon>Romulan ComCon much faster as well.

The Alliance likely have trouble making this happen, and generally, they just have their ComCons moving off map, which takes 4 turns per trip. But it isn't impossible that the Feds and Gorns could make something speedier if the Alliance is doing well.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 07:50 am: Edit

The Lyran SB on 1407 doesn't work, since the destination SB needs to be in the original territory of the power receiving the delivery.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Jason wrote:
>>The Lyran SB on 1407 doesn't work, since the destination SB needs to be in the original territory of the power receiving the delivery.>>

Huh. I don't have rules handy, but ever noticed that that was an actual rule. Just the length of trip rule.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 03:28 pm: Edit

I was gonna post what Jason posted; he's right.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 04:25 pm: Edit

I just looked at the rules in CO (twice), and it doesn't anywhere that I can see (which doesn't mean it necessarily isn't there, however) say the SB needs to be in original territory. It just says "attached to the main supply grid" (443.51) and (443.52).

If someone can point to the rule that says these bases need to be in original home territory (and not just attached to the main supply grid, and at least 3 hexes away from the other starbase), I would certainly appreciate it.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 04:48 pm: Edit

IIRC, the home territory requirement was a ruling in Captain's Log a few years ago. I'll see if I can find it later tonight.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Ah, ok. It isn't remotely impossible that this came from a ruling that was buried somewhere; the CO rulebook (well, at least the 2003 CO rulebook) certainly doesn't indicate this.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 05:32 pm: Edit

And, here is the answer:

"(443.51) The destination starbase must be in the original territory of the receiving race. A starbase in captured territory does not count, but one in annexed territory would count. A Klingon starbase on one of the Klingon colonies in Tholian space would not count."

(Rulings for CL#30, 2004)

This may or may not be reflected in an updated CO rulebook (which may or may not exist yet); so yeah, ok, a SB to land at for a ComCon needs to be in original, non captured territory (which is not in the written rules, but apparently appended to the rules). So for the Coalition to speed up ComCon income, the Klingons need to upgrade the BATS in 0908 or 1009 to a SB, which may or may not be worth the hassle.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Considering it's worth an extra 40 EP to both the Lyrans and the Klingons for the cost of 28 EP, might be ...

Graham - the 13 EP for the Klingon C8 / Romulan K9 is under (704.1) ...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Stewart wrote:
>>Considering it's worth an extra 40 EP to both the Lyrans and the Klingons for the cost of 28 EP, might be ...>>

Oh, sure--like, if the Klingons or Lyrans can afford to do it early enough for it to pay off, it is a good plan. But often early enough for it to pay off, the cost outlay seems excessive (especially given that often early on, the Klingons and/or Lyrans are building SBs in other spots on the front). And by the time they can afford it, it might be too ate to be worth the investment.

But yeah, if the Coalition can do so, it is worth it. But they can't always.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 05, 2021 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Building a Klingon SB as a balance option that takes advantage of this idea is pretty fun though (say 1007). Handy for WYN trade, to some extent too. Can put minor shipyards there and then take WYN trade to there to a satellite stockpile at the SB that funds the MSYs.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 08:28 am: Edit

Just checking….

0519: A mammoth Hydran fleet killing a lone, crippled, garrison duty F5S guarding the planet, who was utterly abandoned by the Klingon high command. Oh well.

1802: 6 Kzinti FF's assaulting a planet defended by 8 Klingons and ambushed (ha!) by about 30 reacting Klingons and about 20 more reserve ships eager to move East before CT9.

519 - A crippled* ship can't garrison a captured planet... was the F5S crippled by a raid (or any uncrippled ships reacted out)?

1802 - Was the 6 FF's the minimum that had to be left -i.e. was a modestly high Coalition Command Ratiing Hex in the hex?


On the Kzinti - accepting being in the Barony does allow a larger area to counter attack into - if they can stay on map it may required the Coalition to attack them.

* - A crippled ship can't garrison a planet - but a very small number of ships which have a 'G Troop' factor on the crippled side could use the G to garrison a planet (a D6G for example).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 11:44 am: Edit

519: I guess the planet wasn't captured then, although given the subsequent events it hardly matters. I'll ask Trent if he'd prefer to kill a D6 for free (the alternative I could have left behind), or get a 2 EP rebate for the devastated planet. I retrograded everything but the F5S. I could have sworn a cripple could garrison something... grumble grumble. Do people actually get through this game without retconning things?

1802: Yes. Coalition had a garrison of 2xD6,6xE4 at the time the Kzinti passed over. So 8 ships, minus the difference between CR 10 and a D6's CR 8.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 12:24 pm: Edit

519 - The planet was captured (briefly...) - and rebelled when you retrograded everything other than the crippled F5S.

So no 2 Ep's for the Hydrans.

Yes - simple mistakes happen and can be corrected most times.

Crippled Shps can garrison enemy provinces - and so it's an easy mistake to make.

OK on 1802 - probably would have been better for the Kzinti leave a modest force there (even if the reserves were going to turn up) - as losing an Escort and some fighters plus doing some damage back is better than losing 2 x FF's.

Weirdly, the Kzinti FF's (and FFK's) are actually more valuable than most ships - as if your able to kill enough, the Kzinti Carrier Groups do start to get a tad naked...

i.e. losing a Kzinti DD is might be better than a FF.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Okay, so the mistake actually has no effect at all; because of the 1 turn delay on planetary income, there's no game effect of losing the planet on the Coalition T8 rather than when the Hydrans liberate the planet. The only difference is the Coalition unnecessarily [not really] let the Hydrans blow up an F5S.

Of course, to cut supply, they had to leave ships behind, so not entirely unnecessary.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 02:37 pm: Edit

That crippled F5S on planet 0519 is 100% a place where the Hydrans could have killed it with a raid.

Raids; they help the Alliance :-)