I mean, it isn't like the Alliance had trouble killing it without a raid. It was just a ship that could be sacrificed to sit there and cut supply between 0617 and the offmap for a very relevant split second.

But yeah, a raid would have been a more efficient way to eliminate that ship if the Hydrans had been more ambitious with their main fleet.

As it is (update to follow) they reopened supply and have to decide how many ships they are willing to not have in the capital to try to keep it open.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, March 08, 2021 - 12:29 am: Edit

The Klingons will have upwards of 10 EP of salvage and of the 74.5 EPs of repairs they intended, will complete only 69 due to the depredations of the Federation BATS-assassination machine.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, March 08, 2021 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Answering Rich:

Paul pointed that out too. Fortunately, since the Hydrans came and killed it anyway, the fact that the planet rebelled has no independent effect on the course of the game, so the fact that the poor scout floated over the planet watching this happen while it tried to keep life support going didn't end up being relevant.

Except of course to the poor Klingons and subject crew on the scout, who got absolutely vaporized by a Hydran fleet.

One thing I'm starting to try to do is to give Trent more options. I spent most of the game just retrograding everything back to prevent any aggressive actions. But I made a mistake last turn and put too much on SB 1704 when more ships were needed on 1803. If BATS 1803 goes down on CT8, the Kzinti are completely out of supply and the Feds are a hex further back away from 1401/1504/etc.

I paid two BATS and another crippled one for the strategy on the Fed border, because Trent diagnosed the situation correctly. I think maybe I got away with some things in Hydran space; the reserves ended up being enough to fight off his fleet in 0718.

I will put up a map after retrograde.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 08, 2021 - 04:36 pm: Edit

One easily forgotten rule that can help with isolated bases and providing supply: Orion smuggling.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, March 09, 2021 - 02:10 pm: Edit

Trent actually used that rule as the Hydrans, I believe (for 1/2 an EP). He didn't use it for all of the EPs on the offmap because he's perfectly capable of reopening supply; it's just a matter of how he splits ships between "Holding supply open." and "Putting up intimidating lines over capital planets."

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, March 09, 2021 - 11:15 pm: Edit

I think it was ruled that you cannot spend 1/2 an EP on supply, it's 1EP for 5 ships and the replacement fighters.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, March 11, 2021 - 06:45 pm: Edit

The 1/2 EP wasn't for supply (which I think is another problem, but since it is 1/2 an EP I think we are going to chalk it up to experience rather than go back and worry about it.)

In the meantime, it is odd how path-dependent things affect this game so heavily; the "Northern Front" has always been the focal point of the war for both of us and the Hydran front [and now Souther Fed space] are lazy backwaters. One can easily imagine Klingon commanders in the North Fleet scoffing at their compatriots in the East Fleet (only 30ish SEQ!) even though the East Fleet has killed two Federation starbases while the North Fleet hasn't yet crossed the neutral zone...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 11:51 am: Edit

Replying to Karl:

So the F5S's on territory duty were kind of an accident caused by poor planning. I pinned the Capital on CT8, and this required a lot of ships (a LOT of ships). And of course the first thing I did was put a stack of E4's and a stack of F5's in the Capital, since those are great for pinning since they are less valuable hulls.

Of course, by the time I got around to moving ships to the southwest corner of Hydran space, I realized that I had no remaining size class 4 ships to move. And when I hit the BATS in 318 and the planet in 0519, I only needed to cripple a frigate. So I crippled the F5S in each group.

So when it came time to retrograde, and I realized that leaving extra ships wasn't going to do a lot (since the Hydrans had plenty of ships to retake that area if they wanted to), I left the crippled F5S's behind rather than sacrifice cruisers.

Poor planning all the way down as far as having crippled F5S's around for him to kill for free.

[I can't speak for any other game, but the maulers in our game are pretty much a once-a-turn-and-then-pay-3-EP machine. Trent hasn't shot at one since, like, turn 3, because why would he?]

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 01:16 pm: Edit

If you're expecting them to shock, why not just take damage on them? From a EP-only POV, rolling for shock costs 1EP (2/3 * 0 + 1/3 * 3), so self-crippling a mauler costs 3-1=2EP, or 0.2EP per damage (equal to crippling a 5-point frigate).

There are plenty of reasons why you wouldn't direct a mauler and some you wouldn't self-cripple (either you're afraid that it'll be killed in pursuit or it would be significantly disadvantageous to have it crippled), but IMO letting maulers roll for shock all the time is a huge waste.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 01:29 pm: Edit

That's actually a pretty good point, but while statistically crippling the mauler might be a superior choice or equivalent choice to crippling "battlegroup ships" (D5/F5L/F5) depending on the ship, as a practical matter the upside of potentially having the mauler around the following round is worth crippling a couple F5's or even D5+F5 (-2) to have a chance (I'm told, 66%!) of keeping the Mauler and directing another ship the next round.

You know this, no doubt, but that's usually why I haven't taken damage on maulers voluntarily.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Incidentally, I often accept the loss of 3 COMPOT to put up a 36 BG (7/7/7/5/5/5) over a 39 BG (7/7/7/6/6/6) simply because crippling 15 COMPOT of F5's is a decent amount of damage that repairs for 3 EP. I have actually started downshifting F5L's to F5's because I really don't want a lot of even-compot ships lying around.

Of course, in this game, due to the intentional strategy of dropping damage by the Alliance, cripples are a bigger deal than in most games.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 02:36 pm: Edit

Even more exciting, I have finally bothered to look at the documentation on this forum and it has the ability to create tables.

Readable econs are coming to YOU! I can even post my combat spreadsheet for future turns for Paul Howard to go over late in the English night.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 05:31 am: Edit

As Sam said -Self Crippling Maulers which Mauled is often 'fair value' - ignoring the fact some people roll well or roll badly for shocking.

There is always a time when you may not want to self cripple (it's the last Mauler in the hex or you feel you need 2 or mores etc) - and there will be times when your enemy resolves the direct damage done fully (so there is nothing left to take) - so you have to roll and take your chance.

As with anything, there is though never a single 'decision' which will always be right!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 09:35 am: Edit

If you have a lot of maulers in a fight and can afford to self cripple them to absorb 10 damage without significantly hurting your chances of doing what you wanna do in the hex, self cripple the maulers to absorb 10 (or 7) damage and avoid the die roll risk.

If you have few (or one) maulers in the fight, I'd generally risk the shock roll, especially if it is a single round combat and it is likely your opponent is fleeing with cripples you could pursue.

Maulers are expensive to take damage on (10 damage, 3 EP to repair a D6M or .3 EP cost per damage taken, as opposed to .25 EP for a standard even compot ship, .21 EP for a CW, or .2 EP for a 5/3 FF), but as Sam points out, if you factor in the average cost of shocking them out, you sort of come out ahead.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 02:17 pm: Edit

I mean, I guess statistically a D6M is equal to taking F5's/Lyran DD's/Fed FF's. which are what you want to take damage on, generally. So it comes down to what you need to have in the hex going forward, which (let's be honest) is usually the mauler rather than the F5's (if you have that choice.))

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 02:40 pm: Edit

It depends. Sometimes you are in a long fight where you'd like to maul as many rounds as you can. In such cases, if your opponent isn't directing your mauler you take your chances on the shock roll.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 03:39 pm: Edit

One aspect which doesn't come up often is if I don't self cripple (after mauling), could I lose the battle?

i.e. If I cripple 2 x F5 and then fail shock, I have lost 20 Def Compot of Ships - and the next round I might be 1 ship short (or have to use cripples).

If I self cripple the Mauler, those 2 x F5's (or better) are available for the next round.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 04:55 pm: Edit

>>I mean, I guess statistically a D6M is equal to taking F5's/Lyran DD's/Fed FF's.>>

Kind of?

Cruiser maulers (D6M, STT, FAL) are terrible to repair, as they cripple from 10 to 4 (or 10 to 3 as the FAL, which is easy to not notice :-); as such, they cost more than regular ships to fix and are expensive to take damage on (a D6M costs 3 to repair, and absorbs 10 damage, so costs .3EP per point of damage it sucks up, which is more expensive than even-compot CA/CL/FFs, which are .25 EP per point; odd compot ships with beneficial cripple sides are even more cost effective to take damage on. Pro tip: Always take damage on CCs, CWs, and 5 point FFs when you can!).

War Maulers (MD5, STJ, SPF) take damage regularly like war cruisers, which is better than average (.21 EP per damage point cost), and as such, as good a reason as ever to start building War Maulers when you can; yeah, they are 3 points less mauling, but they are also 3 fewer EPs to build, and vastly cheaper to repair in the long run. And pretty much just as good for line combat against line ships (i.e. shooting down the outer escorts and occasional cruiser that you can blow up). Like, you still want 10 point maulers for attacking fixed defenses, but having a bunch of MD5/STJ/SPF is totally reasonable as the game grinds on.

But if you sort of calculate in the cost of the ships shocking out (where you have to pay 3EPs to fix a ship that absorbed 0 damage), assuming that self crippling to take 10 damage saves you the 3 EPs from the shock, amortized over 3 self cripples, it comes out kind of cheaper? I guess? Sam detailed that above, but I dunno that the math is as cut and dry as that :-)

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, March 20, 2021 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Another minor point to consider when deciding whether or not to choose to cripple a mauler is the _logistics_ of repair after the battle. If you resolve 10 points by crippling 2xF5, they can both retrograde to a handy BATS and be repaired there next turn. Applying the damage to a D6M means that you need to get it back to an FRD or SB for repairs.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 12:14 am: Edit

I was just counting a crippled D6M/STT as 3 EP/10 damage (30%), multiplied by the probability that it would have survived shock uncrippled, 66%. Which is 20%, the same as an F5/DD/Fed FF.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 08:53 am: Edit

Heh, yeah, I dunno that math actually works out the way one would hope :-)

If a D6M is crippled, it takes 3EPs to repair. So every time you use it and risk the shock roll instead of self crippling it, it costs, on average, 1EP (3EPs to fix every time it cripples, which happens 33% of the time). This is a cost *over* and *above* the cost of using it to absorb damage--if you have 10 damage to resolve, and take it on a pair of F5s, it'll cost 2EPs to repair those; if at the same time (or whatever), the D6M shocks out, you now have a total of 5EPs of repair to do, having only absorbed 10 damage. But if you never self cripple, and it never shocks out, it doesn't cost anything. If you never self cripple, and it shocks out all the time, it costs a bunch of extra money.

If you self cripple the D6M, you aren't crippling the 2F5s, so saving that damage, but also now are still paying 3EPs to fix the D6M. But at least you absorbed 10 damage that isn't crippling other stuff.

So in some way, yeah, self crippling the D6M is saving some money somewhere somehow, but I don't know that it is as straight forward as .3EP at 66% or something.

10 damage on F5s is still always gonna cost 2EPs to fix, and 10 damage on a D6M is still always gonna cost 3EPs to fix; i.e. taking damage on a D6M is still very inefficient relative to F5s (if you scale it out, if you take 100 damage on D6Ms, it costs 30EPs to repair them but 20EPs to repair that 100 damage if it all fell on F5s, which adds up quickly). But, on the other hand, fixing shocked out D6Ms is infinitely worse.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, March 21, 2021 - 06:50 pm: Edit

It all depends on if you want the mauling ability on the next Combat Round ...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, March 24, 2021 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Interesting question:

In the first round in 0219, the Coalition had enough damage (just) to direct cripple the LGE in formation, after which they could have put a mauler on the line (I left it off the first round to make sure it was available in pursuit) and almost certainly killed it in pursuit.

I dropped damage, which pretty much guaranteed at least three dead hulls (to avoid pursuit) or probably at least that many (if the Hydrans crippled FF's and allowed pursuit).

Killing one LGE vs. killing three FF's (plus removing over 50% of the fighters in the hex when the Hydrans were going to have to fight again and they had another LGE in the fleet)?

I think in retrospect the LGE is probably the way to go, but I was still thinking I'd get a pursuit somewhere (I hadn't thought through how easy it is to avoid this by self killing FFs when you have fighters to fix the numbers exactly).

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Wednesday, March 24, 2021 - 03:25 pm: Edit

I think there's no question it's the LGE. The LGE costs much more to build, is worth the same number of units when pinning, and carries 6 fighters. The only question is whether you're willing to take the damage (when doing pursuit against only a few cripples it can be painful). For a LGE or a PAL, though, a lot of damage can be justified. The Hydrans aren't going to be building more of them any time soon.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, March 25, 2021 - 03:20 am: Edit

Remembering 'never say always' - I think 99% of the time I would have directed on the LGE*.

It's far more dangerous than 3 x FF's and in the pinning war, as effective (3 v 3) - plus the Fast Ship bonus in combat/movement etc.

* - The times when perhaps crippling it would not occur if there was a chance it would survive a pursuit battle (i.e. might fail a pursuit roll or no Mauler available...).

As Sam mentioned, the Hydrans can't really afford to build more LGE (I would build Paladins if I had the Ep's) - so once dead, they stay dead.