Archive through April 20, 2021
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Archive through April 20, 2021
Replying to Stewart:
Scout defense what? Yeah, we had forgotten about that for a while, so we're just going to remember it going forward rather than retcon it. Of course, 90% of the time you forget this rule, it just means that 2 less fighters die... but this time it was relevant, and it probably comes up more than you think.
I'm pretty sure I know the answers to these questions, but:
1. Can a patrol/interdiction carrier feed its oversized squadron forward as a single SEQ for command purposes?
2. How many squadrons of fighters does a "standard" 12 factor DN-hull Heavy Carrier (e.g. C8V, ID, Gorn/Kzinti CVA) have? Is it one squadron of 12 or 2 of 6 (since there is no oversized squadron called out on the SIT).
3. How many SEQ of fighters - for command purposes - do three F5V's or FFV's with 4 factors each in the support echelon count as: (3) because they are fixed in 4 fighter squadrons, or (2) because they can be reformed as 6 IFF squadrons when off the line?
I swear we have read over the rules on this together and feel like we should be able to figure it out, but we're still not 100% sure of ourselves.
[Oversized squadrons and CVA's are coming up on the SIT in the next turn or three!]
1. No.
2. Two squadrons of six fighter factors each.
3. 2.
That's what I thought, and thank you. At least I haven't been doing anything wrong here.
Graham
On point 1 it is sometimes easier to remember quality counts over quantity.
i.e. it doesn't matter how many fighters are in the Squadron (1 to 12 is possible) - IFF's always have a maximum of 6 Fighters.
The only way to have more than '6 Compot' via an IFF is to have better Fighters - i.e. a CVB using it's fighters as an IFF would count as 8 compot - as is still only 6 Fighters being fed forward.
(Heavy Fighters might allow more than 6 compot, but rules are not with me).
You can indeed send a squadron of Heavy Fighters forward for their full compot for a squadron (8-10, depending on the race in question; most Heavy Fighter squadrons are 8H; the Feds get a 9H and a 10V).
In SFB, Heavy Fighters are kind of terrible (well, the first generation are, 'cause they are all slow; when they get to speed 15, they are fine). In F+E, Heavy Fighters are kind of awesome; most empires can just upgrade from 6 to 8H for just the 2 free fighter factors difference; Fed F-111's act and cost like PFs (but cheaper at .25EP per factor and a similar stockpile of free ones if you go that route, but always go that route). The Romulans can change the weird 8 fighter SPB from 8 to 8H for a 1EP surcharge.
We haven't gotten to heavy fighters (or PFs) yet, but the plan is to play to Turn 34 or when someone says "uncle", so we expect to. Of course, Trent has a couple of oversized squadrons, but they're on multi-squadron carriers anyway, so he has always put them on the line.
More than six factors for IFFs includes F14's, F15's, A10's, any sort of heavy fighter, any sort of fighter with megafighter packs and Stinger-Xs.
We've been slow because we have our first post-vax Covid family visit going on, so it's a good time to take stock before the Romulan invasion. AT9 is going to be important, but pending AT9...
In Hydran space, the Coalition has devastated only one capital planet, a minor, but has chased the Hydrans out of every other location on the map and has a Starbase (which they can pin the Hydrans out of) upgrading in 0615. The Coalition has hull superiority (and not close - about 185 Hydrans to about 235 Coalition SEQ including fighters) but not so much hull superiority they can take the capital (where the bulk of the Hydrans are).
In Kzinti space, the Kzinti are bottled up in the off map (except two reserves in Fed space that will need support on AT9). A lot depends on whether the Kzinti try/succeed in stopping the BATS upgrade to Starbase in 1401 this turn.
The invasion of the Federation has been a little anemic, as Earth is under no threat and the Coalition has not destroyed the 4th Fleet SB. This turn, the Coalition is demolishing a lot of fixed defenses, but won't be able to hold those points on AT9 (just BATS - level forces). The Coalition has no supply in Fed space and is now attacking almost everything in Fed space that they can reach. So things are going to slow down at least on the Klingon/Fed front as the Feds get more ships and the Klingons work on some sort of supply line.
[A bunch of BATS/planet fights going on in Fed space still, but all the significant battles are over on CT9.]
The Coalition has no war chest at all, due to all the repairs, which is important with exhaustion looming.
What killed all the Hydran hulls (including some nice ones!)?
A combination of attrition over a capital planet and getting ambushed in the hinterlands. The Coalition mostly traded hulls, but they were able to ambush a couple of Hydran fleets on 519 and 219 with advantages in COMPOT/EW and take good trades.
The DG's died over Hypnokerm, trading for D6D and CC (Lyran), which is probably moderately okay for the Coalition, but not a huge deal.
I find the small BATS assaults often more fun than the 'big battles' - as BATS can be tougher than you would think.
Example - the 'oops where did the Carrier and Scout go' assault force of say a D6, F5, 2 x E4 v BATS(6F)
20 v 18/EW - Attacker goes high on BIR... and we get say 32.5% net v 37.5%, so 7 v 7.
2 SIDS v 2 crippled E4's - both owed 1
Round 2 - ohh no!! Disrupter failure and Coalition only get net 20% v 32.5% - 3 v 6.
So after owed, 2 Fighters die and D6 is crippled.
Round 3 - Paul's rolling again - 25% (net) v 30%, 3 v 5 damage - so another 3 Fighters die and the F5 is crippled (2 owed).
Round 4 - 22.5% v 20% - Only 2 v 3 though and so the last fighter dies and the 1st E4 dies.
Round 5 - net 40% v 30%, so 2 v 3 - last fighter dies and an E4 dies... BATS finally crippled and the other E4 dies.
d6 and f5 retreat....
Fun fun fun!
It was pretty funny, and I was leaving lots of cripples on the line to maintain BIR in the face of SIDS being taken to maintain BIR by the BATS. The dead frigates were mostly directed after crippling for 4-6. The "20" was D5/F5/2xE4, and there were lots of extra ships next door (the East fleet one hex away put up a 91/7 line against a minor). Just lazy; I got bailed out by a couple of high rolls in the first couple of rounds to get through the (voluntary) SIDS.
But while the details weren't great - and my grasp of the details of this game has hurt me several times - the important thing was to hurt the Feds. The deletions from the Fed balance sheet are up to 41 this turn, and while if the Feds want to, they can certainly take much of that back, it's a good start (that I hadn't really made until this turn.)
And yes, I forgot F5S's almost everywhere, which was an unforced error, not that a 1 shift is a huge deal with 20 COMPOT.
Note from the map: The Coalition ALMOST cut off the 4th Fleet Starbase, but if you look closely, there is a supply route to the off map through the BATS in 2201 that the Kzinti saved. Those Kzinti are indeed out of supply to start the turn, but presumably they can do something clever and/or be supported by the Feds.
What sort of Compot do the sides have over 1401?
Depending on what booth sides have - killing the BATS is probably the only relevant aim of the Kzinti. If they don't kill the BATS>SB upgrade - it will make it far more difficult and painful to recapture it.
Noting the dice so far though - could 1401 be recaptured?
Sorry - what sort of compot do the Kzinti have if rolls of 5 or 6 are not achieving a net 24 damage?
I assume the Kzinti are going high on BIR, Coalitiion low on BIR - and VBIR may not be helping, but even if Coalition is able to overcipple by 11 damage per round, 35% with 100 compot would get the net 24 - which is BIR 5 and a roll of 6.
If the Coalition is only able to over cripple by say 6, even if VBIR dropped by 2.... - a 30% is enough to cripple the BATS.
In other words, with the rolls the Kzinti have got - I don't know why the BATS is still alive, if the Alliance objective in attacking 1401 was to kill the BATS....
(The other point to 'point out', is the risk of using owed points, is getting enough for the first round over a planet - as in multiple system hexes, owed points from the Approach battle are automatically divided between ALL the systems - you can't allocate them all to 1 system.... so at best, you might get 2 or 3 owed points in a 'key system' - thereby making it even easier to get a net 24 to cripple a BATS).
So, more info please!!!!
Yeah, I must admit I'm confused that the BATS is still standing, considering the rolls the Kzinti have been getting over 1401. More info please!
Well, there are a few things going in the Coalition's favor:
1. The Kzinti don't really have a way to get COMPOT over 90-105ish, and it's going down over time, as they cripple MEC's and FKE's and cruisers.
2. The Coalition has a reliable 2 shift, meaning all those 6's count as 4's;
3. The Coalition has had 8 minus points in the precise two rounds they needed them, and no minus points in the only round they didn't...
Over the course of three rounds in the capital, the Alliance has yet to have less than 20 or more than 22 damage actual damage scored after minus points. It's ridiculous, frankly, how the dice have pretended to be the Alliance's friend (something like 4.9 average so far) while murdering the poor Kzinti when it matters.
I'll get the spreadsheet up later in the game thread.
To Peter:
Good point. That'll save me an FF, probably, although I may allow Trent to Retcon his op. move enough to kill it with something else; he had plenty of ships.
[Today was our day to deep read 302...]
Best guess - you have overlooked 511.51.
1401 3 (Approach) Coalition (74) 6 125 4 -2 3 3 22.50% 28.125 N Cripple CVL Group (CVL,2xEFF) 15 Fighters (-3)
Alliance (63) 0 92 -2 1 6 25.00% 23 Direct DWS (20) 2 Fighters, Cripple CC (-8)
1401 4 (Kzintai) Coalition (72) 7 168 1 2 7 1 27.50% 46.2 N Cripple (CV+MEC+MEC+FKE, FKE), 12 Fighters
12 DBB Alliance (48) 0 113 -2 4 2 25.00% 28.25 Dir 2xPDU(20) (-8)
Formatting failed!
The 8 owed points would be spread throughout each system - the hex is still a Multiple-System Capital Hex and has bases.
(The fact the other planets may not have defences is not relevant - Static/Mobile forces are still done - although the way the rules are written - I don't think this would split the owed points if there was no defences on planets etc).
On round 4 - the Kzinti did 28 damage, therefore would be a net 26- enough to cripple the BATS.
12-23 (overcripple a DN for 11) damage to kill the crippled BATS, the following rounds is therefore much more likely.
Even without this - if there is a key target which needs X damage - the attacker must put the best line they can up for it - even if they lose a DN or DNL occasionally.
One other valid point - why so many Kzinti CVL's in the battle - where are the CV's?
I think the CVL's were put up to be fodder for crippling, since the Kzinti don't have much other than carrier's and a CVL group is more dense than FF's. But I'm not sure.
On 511.51.
308.252 and 308.253 seem to be in friction, don't they? Is that what you mean by the way the rules are written? There are no units, defenses, or anything on the outer systems (for the duration of the assault).
Hi Graham
I agree, it's is one of the more complex rule interactions and the easiest way to follow the rules, is to use the Step Process in 511.5.
So Step 1 - Fight the Approach Battle.
3 approach rounds later - they Kzinti break through and so there is 8 owed points.
S11.51 requires the points to be spit equally (and in Attackers choice if not equal).
At this stage - 308.252 DOESN'T come into play, as it is not known, which systems or planets will be attacked*.
Step 2 onwards - battles are fought etc.
If a system is never defended - the points allocated I believer would revert back to the Approach Battle/Pursuit (normal rules cover this, owed points work there way back to the pursuit battle).
*The key though is that a planet without defences CAN be attacked - either the Attacker wants to re-devastate those planets OR all the defences have been destroyed and the Defender HAS to accept a battle in the attacked planet - or retreat.
(The attacker for example spent 4 Command Points and so has 2 Extra ships - whereas the Defender might have spent on 1-3 Command Points - so there is a tactical advantage to attack a different system once all defences have gone)
(There may also be a tactic decision why both sides wants to fight more than battle line in a combat round - so systems without bases might be attacked and defended)
So those owed points allocated will come into play, at that point.
Of course, after writing the above, perhaps it would have been easier to say - the owed points are allocated at the SYSTEM level - and the first planet in each system to be attacked, receives the owed points, if 302.252 permits it to.
In other words, you can't pre-judge which systems and planets will be attacked and which planets will be defended - so the specific rule in 511.51 applies.
Graham wrote:
>>1. The Kzinti don't really have a way to get COMPOT over 90-105ish, and it's going down over time, as they cripple MEC's and FKE's and cruisers. >>
They should be able to muster a pretty solid compot in theory:
DN+ADM (c/f), 3[CV, MEC, FKE], 2BC (?), DBB:12=118
If there aren't any cruisers left, replacing the BCs with a couple extra MECs tucked away only drops compot to 114.
With -3 damage (as I think you are using the same minus point rules I do?; if ever there was a rule to fix, it's that one. Heck, if minus points were just resolved after direct damage happened, it'd probably be fine), a 114 point Kzinti line cripples a BATS at 25%, which isn't impossible (4+1=5, -2 EW shift, so they hit it on a 4+ without a VBIR shift). I mean, maybe the Kzinti don't have DF's anymore, but crippling a BATS shouldn't be that difficult.
>>3. The Coalition has had 8 minus points in the precise two rounds they needed them, and no minus points in the only round they didn't... >>
Ah, so you *aren't* using the same minus points rule I was using (i.e. maximum -3 at all times). That being the case, yeah, the Kzinti shouldn't even bother trying to kill the BATS then. The Coalition can just have -8 damage all the time, and it is completely hopeless. If only the Kzinti had access to maulers...
>>Over the course of three rounds in the capital, the Alliance has yet to have less than 20 or more than 22 damage actual damage scored after minus points. It's ridiculous, frankly, how the dice have pretended to be the Alliance's friend (something like 4.9 average so far) while murdering the poor Kzinti when it matters.>>
As noted, the problem here isn't the dice :-)
>>Good point. That'll save me an FF, probably, although I may allow Trent to Retcon his op. move enough to kill it with something else; he had plenty of ships.>>
Heh, yeah, I just saw that and was all "Wait a second...I don't think that is possible?", and then checked, and it wasn't.
We didn't have any particular rule for minus points, so I intended to overcripple heavily in this fight - which was discussed will have to be redone because of the 308.253 thing which would have not only changed the outcome but a lot of the decisions we made too; e.g. - the Coalition doesn't overcripple a CC for -8 unless they actually get the -8 - so I think we'll just pick it up from damage falling on the last round of the approach battle.
The Alliance had 113 one round, I think? Trent mostly uses 4-ship CV groups, which hurts density a little bit, and he doesn't have a lot of MEC's. (I don't really want to advise him to use a 3 ship group and then roll a 6 with a mauler a turn later....)
Fortunately, between Vassal's "undo" function and the spreadsheet, this is easy to fix. I'm fairly glad something was wrong, because coming in and not getting the base was going to be tough for the Kzinti.
The Kzinti have plenty of DF's (at least three, plus an SDF or two, plus the drone tug). If he wanted to, I think he could put up a pretty big line:
BT[Form] 12 + SDF [Scout protected] [1 EW] + 3DF [DBB] 12 + 3 [CV+MEC+FKE] 78 + DN 12 + DNL 11 = 125/1; but he probably doesn't want to put the DN and DNL on the line, especially on approach. As I recall he has 2xBC, CC left...
As with anything (and to be honest, I use Excel to do everything for me), but part of the process in increasing the chance of achieving your sides aims, is to work out what compot is needed to achieve the objective.
So, with 24 and say being owed 8, you need a gross 32 -
You need 105 compot, roll a 6, -2 due to EW and no change on VBIR.
So attacking with say
DN(ADM), 3 x CV+MEC+EFF, 2 x DD, SDF(S) and 2 x DF doing drone gives you 104/EW1...
….is a lot poorer than DN(ADM), 3 x CV+MEC+EFF, CM, DD, SDF(S) ad 2 x DF is 105/EW
1 Compot different gives you a 1/6 chance of success - otherwise you need VBIR to go up.
Getting to 115 Compot, means a 5 (and so net 3) is also a success - whereas 114 compot means a 6 is still needed.
(This is where working out numbers quickly and correctly can make a large different - Trent may be good a 'maths' but it takes a bit more to work out stuff like this on the fly!)
Equally, putting up more modest lines at times may be better - if you need a Battle Tug, DN and DNL to get a fair chance of getting the right number - you don't want to put them on the line to risk them being directed on the round before you need them!
(A DN in form is probably safe.... atleast it will take 54 to kill it and so your getting fair value it!)
On 3CV groups v 4CV groups - a CV with MEC and FKE is fairly safe (34 with mauler to cripple.... but 58 is needed with a Mauler to kill it) - and modestly safe in pursuit.
CVL's and using EFF (as it's only 54 with a Mauler to kill) though probably do need a 4th escort to make them modestly safe, when assaulting modest bases like 1401.
You pay your money and luck shows if you made the right decision 
Playing with FCR's though makes Carrier groups much safer in pursuit - but you still might get unlucky in the main battles.
Okay, so we redid the battle from the entry into the Capital (where the mistake was made.) Maybe if I had known the minus points would disappear, I wouldn't have overcrippled the CC, but it's hard to pretend it was a big deal.
I'll get the spreadsheet up later, but the Alliance rolled a 6 (needing only a 4, current Alliance combat rolls so far this turn: 6-5-6-6-6-6-2) and then a 2 to easily kill the crippled BATS. The Coalition directed the Kzinti BT and DN, and pursuit is pending and will be painful, but the Alliance got what it had to get!