Yaa! BATS down!

Earlier you wrote:
>>which was discussed will have to be redone because of the 308.253 thing which would have not only changed the outcome but a lot of the decisions we made too; e.g. - the Coalition doesn't overcripple a CC for -8 unless they actually get the -8>>

I don't have a rulebook handy, but what is the (308.253) issue?

The Coalition always gets -8 from overcrippling a CC with 1 point of damage, unless it is going into pursuit (in which case, it only gets -3, so don't do that if you think the battle is about to end).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 08:00 am: Edit

308.253 is the weird bit that covers if no defenders 'defend' a defences planet, no +/- can be allocated or new points gained from smashing the planet.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 10:31 am: Edit

Oh, yeah, ok.

I'm confused as to how the Coalition could get minus points here in any case then. Assuming they are the defenders in the system (as it is captured Kzintai), if a planet is attacked and there are no defenders, there is nothing to cripple for minus points...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 11:51 am: Edit

Peter:

The whole issue here was minus points from the approach. Originally I overcrippled a CC on Round three of the approach, thinking that because "no minus points could be added" to the undefended systems, they'd all go to Kzintai as if this was a normal battle.

Turns out no.

So instead, I got two minus points instead of 8, and in the re-run he rolled a '6' anyway, so it didn't matter how many minus points I had.

So far, I think I've killed EFF, MEC, DN, TCB plus some cripples (mostly CVL groups offered up as sacrifices on the approach) for CC, DWS, 2xPDU, BATS. The pursuit will be painful for the Alliance since I have no reason not to put up 5xDN, BC assuming I don't roll a '6'. But it's nonetheless a nice victory for the Kzinti; their first in a while.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 03:55 pm: Edit

One thing that can be useful to keep in mind (though it would not have mattered here at all) is that the attacker can force increase the BIR by 1 for every 4 rounds over a fixed point.

That can be useful in getting that sort of 'I need 24 to cripple that darn BATS' problems. Or just to do more ship damage to an opponent picking minimum BIR's for their carrier fleets. In rare cases that can potentially let a high compot fleet direct cripple a SB after rounds of clearing the PDU's first in a capital assault.

It does not come up too often, but can be useful.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 04:23 pm: Edit

And that's one rule (304.5) I always forget (as have my opponents!).


That's does make late war assaults on SB's a lot easier to kill (especially with Maulers/X-Ships).

Early on- Alliance SB's are perhaps modestly vulnerable due to Lyran DN's and Maulers.

Kill the PDU's....cripple the SB.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 04:36 pm: Edit

You could always ask Trent if he prefers the original battle….

and on round 7 he can pick BIR 5 (plus your BIR)…. but you still need to roll well (probably 5 or 6 assuming VBIR is 0 and Kzinti are on -2).

Would need to wait until round 11 though to increase his chance again (and his DN/DNL/TGC+BP lines will not last long!).

Worth noting that approach battles DON'T count towards the required 4 consecutive rounds - and the decision is made after the VBIR roll is (but before combat rolls - so may slightly slow down battles where it could be applied - we normally roll VBIR and the combat dice in 1 batch - so would need to roll VBIR - announce and then 2nd batch).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 04:43 pm: Edit

Ah, got it on the minus point issue.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 07:23 pm: Edit

BTW, those minus points don't disappear, once generated they remain until the pursuit round.

The -8 in the final approach becomes four -2s (one for each system). Even when you fight only at the main system, those other three '-2's are still there waiting. On the retreat the three unused -2s rejoin the fleet as -6 for the pursuit round (plus any +/- for the fourth system).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Yep.

Not that they wouldn't have been more useful in the main battle, but at least a lucky roll won't kill a DN.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, April 20, 2021 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Of course, they DO go away if the Coalition bungles pursuit. Rolled a 6 and the Kzinti got clean away.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 02:43 am: Edit

If I had bet on things 'never happening' and 'at the wrong time' - I would be a very rich man

(Best one I can remember was playing in a DBM Doubles Tournament and my playing partner put our Commander in Chief into a Melee - claiming don't worry, we can't die - and he may have overlooked one of the modifiers..... he rolled a 1 and the enemy a 6. One dead CinC!)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 07:20 am: Edit

>>Of course, they DO go away if the Coalition bungles pursuit. Rolled a 6 and the Kzinti got clean away.>>

Coalition didn't have a fast ship in the captured capital?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 11:18 am: Edit

Yes, but the Coalition forgot about it.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 12:26 pm: Edit

Ah, ok. Seems reasonable :-)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 01:19 pm: Edit

So, there's a somewhat embarrassing back story there. Up to now, we hadn't realized that there was any chance you miss out on pursuit, but in the course of fixing our understanding of other things, we finally read 307 again properly. So I didn't have the need for a fast ship in mind when originally planning my pursuit force, and just didn't modify the "plan" for the pursuit force on the fly with the book open, because I was looking at a different paragraph, and passing the book back and forth.

We make a lot of blunders like this; it's okay. First-ever game for both of us, jumped in without anyone who knew how to play (except you guys) around, if I miss killing a couple of CVL's that's not going to be the biggest mistake of the game, over 34 turns.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Graham

If I can find a 'F&E veteran' who has played say 20 years + who hasn't made mistakes (and some big mistakes), in the last 5 years - I'll let you know

We all make mistakes - and it can help avoid the same tactics always working (due to various mistakes being made, which can alter the game dynamics).

Alas, the perfect game would see the Coalition I think winning all the time.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, April 21, 2021 - 02:51 pm: Edit

I'll comment further after AT9, but so far I think the Coalition seems to have an easier time of it. I'm actually really looking forward to the restart (our plan is to play to Turn 34 or when someone says "uncle" and then swap ends), and an attempt to defend the Alliance. I have some ideas...

But of course I have ideas for the Romulans, and for the shiny interdiction carriers I have under construction, and ...

Only wish we had more time; playing in half hour stretches between me stopping work in the evening and my opponent's theoretical bedtime makes recalling details hard. Weekends are better, but even then time is tight.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 01:34 pm: Edit

With the end of AT9, the Starbase (Klingon) and MB (Lyran) in 0615 and 1802 respectively will go up, but the Alliance successfully destroyed the upgrading BATS in 1401; the Coalition will have to start over in putting up defenses there (mostly; there is a Klingon MB and a couple of PDU on Kzintai.) There isn't a serious danger to any capital (including the Kzinti one) right now; the Lyrans are holding down Kzinti space with a lot of very dense ships, and the Hydrans are doing the same over their own capital.

As a result, the war appears likely to be won or lost in Federation space (maybe "as it should be..."?) The Coalition has taken one capital (as it seems they must to be competitive) and failed to take a second (as it seems they can't without dropping the ball somewhere, at least this game).

The Coalition retains pincount superiority throughout the map, but not by such a margin that it can always pin multiple directions; the 4th fleet Starbase, in particular, is a problem for the Coalition right now as it "flanks" the areas of Federation space where the Klingons would like to be setting up supply.

I haven't counted VP's yet, but I would be surprised if the Alliance wasn't doing okay by economy (not that they'll ever -collect- many of those EP's, but they can count them as of the end of AT9). However, the Coalition has been fairly successful in attrition, and has demolished a lot of fixed defenses. So all is still to play for.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Map:

Map as of the end of Alliance Turn 9

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 03:06 pm: Edit

What is the current state of the fixed defenses in the Hydran capital? Is it even possible to take Hydrax at this point, or has that ship sailed?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 03:56 pm: Edit

One planet devastated on CT9, otherwise intact, and a total of 18 PDU on Hydrax. I think the ship has sailed, although I intend to continue to drop ships on the Capital every turn, to keep the Alliance honest, more or less permanently. The Coalition has about 200 hulls in Hydran space, which is probably about 50 short of what they need to take the capital and not get demolished in return, and three FRD's, which at least three short of what they need. The Klingons, in particular, are heavy on pincount ships (F5's and E4's) as well.

My intention since AT3/CT4 has just been to constrict the Hydrans, not take Hydrax, so I've done that (because it is more tedious than hard, if you send enough ships).

I mean, the Coalition could take Hydrax. But doing so would mean moving 50+ ships away from Federation space. And right now, Federation space has a lot of much softer targets than Hydrax, which would be upwards of 300/7 in a first round. At some point, the Coalition should probably devastate some more outer planets. But Hydrax isn't on the table right now.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 04:19 pm: Edit

So far the Alliance seems to be doing OK for AT9. Of course, I can't see the fleets, so maybe I'm way off base.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 05:10 pm: Edit

The Hydrans in 617 with 18 PDU's (and 20 if they are threatened) and a SB - and a full 'evil' line are one of the few places, pre PF's where pretty much entire Battle Lines can be killed on even a modest roll.

300/7 - Hydrans should be touching 400....

(SB 48, 18 PDU's if 162.... and 13 Paladins, LGE, Battle Tugs and CC's and CA's if need be could be 170+)

A good roll could see everything fry.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 06:52 pm: Edit

The Hydrans gtetting to 400 compot anywhere is the Coalition's fault.

The Coalition can (and probably should) prevent this in most cases.

Generally, the Coalition can prevent line annihilation by using command points and large ships (and no IFFs). A lot of EW helps, as does picking BIR 1.

A full line of big ships (say TGA(DP, BP, frm) 2DN 3BC 2D7C D6M 3D6D D6S 12DBB D6S(FRS) 131/14
can absorb 134 damage without selfkilling anything/ A 338 point line, even with a 40% damage roll would not force any self kills. If the attack occurs on C5, the Hydrans can't have more than 16 PDU and would be hard pressed to get to that compot.while gathering up enough EW to counteract the Coalition's EW.