| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 01:15 pm: Edit |
I think I mostly agree with Rich? I mean, my email said "upwards of 300" and I'm sure the Hydrans could get like a 150 line, plus 162 PDUs, plus a Starbase, which if they don't need EW (they will) would be 360ish. But 360 with a 2-shift is pretty painful; 5% is like a loss of 18 damage. The problem is that right now, the Coalition has pretty good fighting fleets in Hydran space, but not a lot of depth. If they were going to take Hydrax, they'd need another 3 dozen cruisers, war cruisers and war destroyers, at least. Or be risking fighting over Hydrax and not winning, which (I think you will agree) is bad. But this is okay because the Coalition decided not to take Hydrax on CT2, when they realized they were leaning North (because they could already attack there).
So we're going to build defenses on 0615 (Starbase complete) and then 0416, and then some combination of 0519 and 0118 or something, with the goal of, eventually, permanently cutting the Hydrans from the offmap and locking them into a (hopefully devastated) Capital which doesn't have the income to run its shipyard. It's a plan.
In response to Ted:
I think that's basically right. The fleets are probably modestly in the Coalition's favor, because one of the ways the Alliance got a pretty good-looking map was by crippling a lot of ships by dropping damage between Turn 3 and Turn 6. So all the ships they would have directed are still on the map, but the Coalition has downshifted several more builds than they otherwise would have as well, so some of the missing scouts and maulers are... still missing, as a result of economic issues. But pincount wise the Coalition is doing pretty well. I think?
Now that the Romulans are joining in I think the Federation should be under a lot of pressure. But it's pressure; they're not getting rolled or anything. They have CVA/CVB lines where it matters.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 01:40 pm: Edit |
I put up CT10 econs and pincount (counting the Romulans) in the actual theaters of battle. I left out a few ships that can't get anywhere anyway (Feds on the Gorn border, Lyran new construction as well... because it's in 0408... but it will be able to strat out this turn so maybe I should have included it.) but it's pretty close.
Let me know if the spreadsheets are annoying.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 12:52 pm: Edit |
Real update to follow, but we are now through round ELEVEN over Starbase 2204, with the Klingons getting pounded but chipping away at the Federation fleet. Everybody is losing big expensive ships all over the place, and the cripples are racking up on both sides too, as no one is willing to direct frigates for the most part. It sure looks like the Klingons have enough ships to win a war of attrition, but the COMPOT situation is something like 140-100 and still pretty stable.
Losses include 2xC8, BT (Lyran), 2xD6D, D6S, and other big ships for the Klingons, and CVS+ECL+FFE, 3xDNL, SC for the Feds (the carrier group got sniped at BIR 9 on the approach when the Klingons rolled a '5').
[855 total damage inflicted so far, probably 60% of it by the Alliance. Dice have overall been equal, although as noted the Klingons rolling up with a big line on approach was very important.]
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 12:53 pm: Edit |
Interim:
Round SIXTEEN over the Starbase. The Feds are running out of SEQ but have now killed every Klingon CR 10 ship in the Hex due to a lucky 6 at BIR 9 getting exactly 54. So the Coalition is using a C5 as a command ship and is down a ship every round relative to where they should be. Of course, if they hadn't risked a couple DN's on the line, they wouldn't have killed that CVS group in one shot early, so it is what it is.
The Klingons have been happy with attrition and continue to direct ships and extend the battle, taking time out to shoot two SC's down rather than dropping damage between rounds 11 and 16. No one is going to have a functional fleet when this is over in the North; The Klingons basically have every ship in the hex getting shot except D6/F5/E4 handfuls holding and attacking small targets, and while they still have way too much in reserve to actually lose, they have taken a LOT of damage; probably over 700 of the 1179 total damage dealt and are at the point where, almost out of fighters, they are voluntarily crippling escorts on carrier groups to try to keep fighting ships upright.
[Not that both sides aren't dropping damage now and then when they can't get excited about the stuff that is there to shoot. But nobody has cracked and gone to "drop every round".]
Meanwhile, the Feds could leave, but they are still rocking a 40ish advantage in COMPOT, are keeping up in EW, and only just now took their first voluntary SIDS steps. So they can't be dissatisfied.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 02:25 pm: Edit |
I think my record for a starbase fight was 33 rounds.
Over Earth.
But since it was, basically, for a Coalition win the Alliance dug in like a tick.
I lost almost half the Klingon fleet and some of the best Lyran and Romulan units - but since I did end up taking Earth and the Federation capital, it was worth it!
That was the only game I've officially completed. I keep trying to complete more, but my opponents usually give up due to RL issues. 
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 02:26 pm: Edit |
RE: Capital Assault
Richard,
>> A full line of big ships (say TGA(DP, BP, frm) 2DN 3BC 2D7C D6M 3D6D D6S 12DBB D6S(FRS) 131/14
can absorb 134 damage without selfkilling anything/ A 338 point line, even with a 40% damage roll would not force any self kills.
Thanks for posting this. I found this battle force quite interesting.
First, the utility of the D6 platform is in full showcase mode. 9x D6 class ships in the overall force!
Second, no carriers or fighters in the battle force, and no fighters as IFF. Not a one. It’s all ships.
Third, apparently using the advanced EW rules, scouts are placed directly on the battle line to strongly emphasize EW capabilties.
A couple of questions/observations:
Q1: Is the overall EW factor 14 or 15? The 3xD6D on the line gives you 6, and the 2xD6S gives you 8 more for 14. Does the DP pod on the tug also give you 1 more EW for 15 total?
Q2: How long could one sustain battle forces like this in the capital assault? Let’s say the Hydrans have 16 PDUs. One can only kill 4 PDUs per turn. So it will take 4 turns to kill all 16 -- probably doing little or no dmg to anything else while you are working down the PDUs? Are there enough of these ships to replace losses, relative to how quickly the Hydran COMPOT will drop from the PDU casualties? And once the PDUs are gone, you still have the Hydran fleet and the SB to deal with. Or does one just fight a few strong rounds to kill PDUs and then leave and repair and come back later? It appears the cost to repair this large number of larger ships might be very high, perhaps stalling the overall offensive?
Q3: I’m wondering if another way to approach this assault might be to send in a series of lower COMPOT fleets of smaller, more expendable ships that you’ll simply allow to be destroyed (possibly overdestroyed) while killing PDUs more somewhat more slowly? Then as the PDUs die and the Hydran COMPOT drops you can begin to introduce more larger ships into your battle force and snowball the fight in the other direction?
Such interesting questions. Thanks again!
(attempt to include an analysis spreadsheet below)
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 02:34 pm: Edit |
Attachment mentioned in prior message:
capital_assault
--Mike
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 03:24 pm: Edit |
Q1:15 because the drone pod provides one EW.
Q2: The line will take a lot of damage on the first round. Hopefully you brought good replacements for crippled ships. How it goes is highly dependant on die rolls and opponent directe damage choices.
Q3: Using lines of significantly less defensive compot will result in significant SEQ losses. The point of the big line I suggested was to minimize SEQ losses. Hopefully the Coalition has FRDs ready to do lots of repairs. Generally I try to have multiple FRDs on 1013 and on C4 and C5 move them towards the Hydran capital. A large stack of Coalition units in the right hex can keep the Hydrans out of Klingon space and can protect an FRD stack. This allows the repair of key ships for follow up attacks.
| By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 07:26 pm: Edit |
Q3 - yes, it's call sandblasting since you are saving a larger line for later rounds (or you have a large negative [24 fighters from the PSUs] to overcome). It can be seen at SB assaults but usually not (full) capital ones as that is a lot of ships to toss (or your opponent is going to direct at a larger target).
Remember that 3D5+F5Q needs 37 to be crippled and 58 for destruction for 38 AF (average 7.6 AF). Looking at one's damage compared to the 58 and directing seems like a better answer (for non-capital [SB + PDU] battles).
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 12:16 am: Edit |
The 4th Fleet's last stand is over, and the Coalition is, er, triumphant?
| 2204 | 1 | Coalition | 12 | 124 | 4 | 1 | 9 | 5 | 42.50% | 52.7 | CVS+ECL+FFE(48) | 6 CVS Fighters (-1) (Mauler does not shock) | |
| Alliance | 4 | 104 | -2 | 4 | 4 | 35.00% | 36.4 | Direct C8 (36) | (+1) | ||||
| 2 | Coalition (67) | 12 | 105 | 1 | -2 | 3 | 1 | 17.50% | 18.375 | N | 18 Fighters | ||
| Alliance (72) | 8 | 151 | -1 | 4 | 5 | 25.00% | 37.75 | Direct C8 (36) | (3 Fighters) | ||||
| 3 | Coalition (64) | 13 | 99 | 1 | -2 | 3 | 4 | 25.00% | 24.75 | N | 23 Fighters, Cripple CC (-7) | ||
| Alliance (54) | 9 | 145 | -1 | 4 | 4 | 22.50% | 32.625 | Drect D5S (24) | 6 Fighters, Cripple D5 (-3) | ||||
| 4 | Coalition (58) | 12 | 97 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 5 | 32.50% | 31.525 | N | Cripple 3xDD, NCL | ||
| Alliance (31) | 8 | 147 | -1 | 4 | 3 | 25.00% | 36.75 | Direct D6D (26) | Cripple 2xD5 (-6) | ||||
| 5 | Coalition (58) | 10 | 101 | 4 | 2 | 10 | 3 | 40.00% | 40.4 | Direct DNL (34) | Cripple DD | ||
| Alliance (31) | 9 | 141 | 4 | 5 | 45.00% | 63.45 | Direct D6S (39) | 6 Fighters. 2xD5 (-2) | |||||
| 6 | Coalition (52) | 10 | 101 | 3 | 0 | 7 | 5 | 37.50% | 37.875 | Direct DNL (34) | Cripple NCL (-3) | ||
| Alliance (31) | 9 | 141 | 4 | 2 | 30.00% | 42.3 | N | 6 FIghters, Cripple 3xD5, 3xF5L (-5) | |||||
| 7 | Coalition (46) | 10 | 101 | 3 | 1 | 8 | 1 | 30.00% | 30.3 | N | 3xNCL, DD | ||
| Alliance (31) | 9 | 141 | 4 | 1 | 30.00% | 42.3 | N | 6 FIghters, Cripple 3xD5, 2xF5L (-2) | |||||
| 8 | Coalition (40) | 10 | 101 | 3 | 0 | 7 | 2 | 30.00% | 30.3 | N | Cripple 2xDD, 3xCL, FF (-4) | ||
| Alliance (31) | 9 | 137 | 4 | 5 | 37.50% | 51.375 | N | 6 Fighters, Cripple 3xD5, 3xF5L, Cripple F5E (-1) | |||||
| 9 | Coalition (34) | 10 | 100 | 3 | 2 | 9 | 6 | 45.00% | 45 | Direct DNL (34) | Cripple 2xFF (-3) | ||
| Alliance (31) | 9 | 133 | 4 | 3 | 37.50% | 49.875 | Direct D6D (26) | 6 Fighters, Cripple 3xD5 (-4) | |||||
| 10 | Coalition (28) | 8 | 105 | -1 | 2 | 1 | 7 | 4 | 32.50% | 34.125 | N | Cripple CF,CS,CA,CC (-1) | |
| Alliance (31) | 10 | 150 | 4 | 2 | 30.00% | 45 | N | 9 Fighters, 2xF5E, 4xAD5 (-6) | |||||
| 11 | Coalition (19) | 8 | 101 | -2 | 4 | -2 | 6 | 5 | 30.00% | 30.3 | Direct SC (20) | Cripple CF,CL (-5) | |
| Alliance (31) | 14 | 140 | 4 | 3 | 30.00% | 42 | Direct TCB (32) | Cripple F5 (-1) | |||||
| 12 (8 DBB) | Coalition (19) | 4 | 110 | -2 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 2 | 22.50% | 24.75 | Direct SC (20) | Cripple FF (-5) | |
| Alliance (31) | 10 | 141 | 4 | 4 | 32.50% | 45.825 | N | 5 Fighters, Cripple 3xD5 3xF5, D7C (-5) | |||||
| 13 (8 DBB) | Coalition (14) | 4 | 110 | -2 | 1 | -2 | 3 | 3 | 17.50% | 19.25 | N | Cripple 3xFF (-1) | |
| Alliance (31) | 10 | 141 | 4 | 3 | 22.50% | 31.725 | Direct D7(24) | Cripple F5 (-2) (Mauler Shocks out) | |||||
| 14 (8 DBB) | Coalition (14) | 4 | 109 | -2 | 4 | 2 | 10 | 5 | 40.00% | 43.6 | N | 6 SIDS, cripple 5xFF,SC (-5) | |
| Alliance (31) | 10 | 141 | 4 | 3 | 40.00% | 56.4 | Direct C8 (54) | ||||||
| 15 (8 DBB) | Coalition (14) | 4 | 103 | -2 | 4 | 1 | 9 | 5 | 37.50% | 38.625 | Direct SC (20) | Cripple 3xFF, CF (-7) | |
| Alliance (31) | 10 | 141 | 4 | 6 | 45.00% | 63.45 | N | 5 Fighters,Cripple 3xD5,3xF5,TAB+2xAD5+E4A(-2) | |||||
| 16 | Coalition(9) | 8 | 93 | 2 | 6 | 6 | 37.50% | 34.875 | N | Cripple 4xFF, CC (-1) | |||
| Alliance | 7 | 138 | 4 | 2 | 27.50% | 37.95 | Direct 6 Fighters | Cripple 3xF5,2xD5 (+1) | |||||
| 17 | Coalition(3) | 8 | 94 | 2 | -1 | 5 | 2 | 25.00% | 23.5 | N | 15 Fighters, Cripple 2xFF | ||
| Alliance | 7 | 139 | 4 | 1 | 22.50% | 31.275 | N | Cripple 3xF5,2xD5 (+3) | |||||
| 18 | Coalition | 6 | 91 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 1 | 25.00% | 22.75 | N | 8 Fighters 4 SIDS (2 Crippled side) (-3) | ||
| Alliance | 1 | 52 | -2 | 4 | 3 | 25.00% | 13 | N | 3 Fighters Cripple 3xF5 (-2) | ||||
| 19 | Coalition | 6 | 95 | 1 | 2 | 7 | 1 | 27.50% | 26.125 | N | Dead SB | ||
| Alliance | 1 | 26 | -2 | 4 | 6 | 35.00% | 9.1 | N | Cripple F5 (+2) |
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 02:45 am: Edit |
Graham
[Edit: It seems odd that you can engineer a salvage failure for an opponent just by encircling them at two hexes distance with a few ships before combat and then attacking. But maybe that's why you shouldn't leave lone outposts outside your well defended areas.]
Partially correct.
It's actually fairly difficult to cut forces off in most areas of the map (unless they are deep in enemy territory etc) - it all depends if the 'force/base' is near other forces - as ships retreating from other battles can help keep a supply path open - and supply passes through almost all unresolved battle hexes (there are a few non-ship units IIRC, which don't allow supply through the hex for example).
But using retreat priorities (for both sides) and doing the battle order 'correctly', it is sometimes possible to put a force out of supply, at the moment of combat, which started the phase in supply (as Out of Supply Forces might get rescued by the Reserve Fleet rules).
So often, a force will just get squeezed and surrounded and so will end up in a hex without supply.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 02:58 am: Edit |
Mike
Q3: I’m wondering if another way to approach this assault might be to send in a series of lower COMPOT fleets of smaller, more expendable ships that you’ll simply allow to be destroyed (possibly overdestroyed) while killing PDUs more somewhat more slowly? Then as the PDUs die and the Hydran COMPOT drops you can begin to introduce more larger ships into your battle force and snowball the fight in the other direction?
Good question!
The problem/issue is that you are basically putting up a line to die - which may fail to achieve the objectives.
For example - instead of a 'good line' - which could risk several good ships dying, you could put up the poor the line : -
C8, 3 x 6 Independent Fighter Squadrons, D6M, 3 x D5, 3 x F5 = 76/0
(Example has no special rules allowed - Battlegroups for example).
The attacker is probably limited to killing 2 PDU's (with the Mauler) - as with no EW, you will be at -1 or -2 (with Advanced EW rules) - 30% would need a lucky roll.
Against a good Defending line, you could lose everything - the above line would take only 97 damage to fully die. (Scouts and additional ships through Command Points increases the maximum that could die, but reduces the chance of having to self kill multiple ships).
So do you want to self kill 8 ships (and the fighters), unless you got lucky** - or risk losing say 1-5 good ships (depending on the roll)?
** - Not necessarily a low roll, but just the dice and compot means say 92 damage is done - Would you kill the D6M (thereby allowing the rest of the line to basically get crippled) or do you allow the Attacker to kill the bulk of the line - but a key ship lives?
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 04:54 am: Edit |
Losing all those C8s is going to hurt. The Klingons don't have a surfeit of command rating 10 ships.
| By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 10:50 am: Edit |
True. It's common for the alliance to target C8s, even in form when at a SB or capital assault.
The saving grace is that it's usually easy to get at least 2 CR10 ships, and usually 4, using battle pods and tugs. The pods are much easier to replace than the C8s.
But 4 isn't really enough, so as a Klingon I'm usually guarding the C8s in form and forcing the Alliance to burn 54 damage to kill them.
Rarely I'll put one on the line knowing it's in danger, because I need the Alliance to burn damage points on direct in that particular battle - but it's a heavy price to pay.
| By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 11:23 am: Edit |
*pours one out for the Splendid Cats*
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 12:12 pm: Edit |
"Losing all those C8s is going to hurt. The Klingons don't have a surfeit of command rating 10 ships."
Its funny you should mention this because I had noticed this as well. The Lyrans can put up as many CR10 lines as they want but the Klingons really have no options other than a fixed number of tugs and their (slow) C8 production to generate CR10 ships. There is likely to be a lot of pod-juggling on CT11.
I mostly haven't risked C8's on the line, but I wanted to try to make some hay on the approach (and was successful, netting the little carrier), and then just made a mistake and left one on the line in the first round over the starbase.
Other mistakes included not forcing the CVA off the line first (or not directing some fighters once the Feds had no replacements), and, probably, not waiting for CT11 when the whole thing could have been led by the B10.
I just realized I put that in the wrong thread. I'll recap the end of combat anyway so it's alright. Only combat hex left is 617...
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 12:17 pm: Edit |
"It's actually fairly difficult to cut forces off in most areas of the map (unless they are deep in enemy territory etc) - it all depends if the 'force/base' is near other forces - as ships retreating from other battles can help keep a supply path open - and supply passes through almost all unresolved battle hexes (there are a few non-ship units IIRC, which don't allow supply through the hex for example)."
Well, 2204 only had supply on AT9 through 2201 (2306 and 2106 are in Coalition hands since CT9), and I resolved 2201 this turn before 2204. And stuck a few frigates in hexes two hexes away from the starbase just for fun. It did mean I couldn't retreat onto the Feds again and beat them up another round (as I otherwise could have done - closest supply was 2106 and 2306), because then they retreat again and get onto the cordon ships...
Come to think, this may have been in part an effect of Trent's tendency to have only a few giant fleets and few other ships out on the map. Makes it hard to ambush his fleets but very easy to maneuver.
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Saturday, May 08, 2021 - 07:46 pm: Edit |
RE: Capital Assault
I’m not sure one needs a battle force that strong if one is looking to just kill a few PDUs per round?
If including a mauler in the force and using directed damage, the number of damage points one needs to score to kill PDUs is:
2 PDUs 10 damage needed
3 PDUs 20 damage needed
4 PDUs 30 damage needed (max that can be killed in one round)
I’ll assume we choose BIR 4, the enemy chooses BIR 1, and we settle on BIR 5.
I’ll further assume we use the advanced EW rules, do not include any scouts, and must settle with a -2 die roll.
I’ll further assume 2 command points.
For the earliest rounds I was thinking of something like:
cap_assault_vry_light
This 50 COMPOT battle force would kill 2xPDUs regardless of die roll, reducing the enemy COMPOT by 18 per round. Make no mistake, with our enemy doing a hypothetical 130+ damage this BF may just evaporate each round. On the plus side, this BF is largely filled with crap.
If the enemy COMPOT gets (or starts) lower, one could move to:
cap_assault_light
This 80 COMPOT battle force would kill 2xPDUs on a 1-3 and 3xPDUs on a 4-6, reducing enemy COMPOT by 18 or 27 per round. One has a lower, but still very real chance of experiencing total BF evaporation.
If the enemy COMPOT gets (or starts) even lower, one could move to:
cap_assault_medium
This 100 COMPOT battle force would kill 3xPDUs on a 1-5 and 4xPDUs on a 6, reducing enemy COMPOT by 27 or 36 per round. As the enemy COMPOT is lower and this BF is stronger, one is going to get some ships coming back (not total evaporation). And thus the snowball begins in the other direction, until one basically arrives at a SB assault-like situation with no enemy PDUs.
The main advantage I see to any of these BFs is by mostly killing small ships to absorb losses one avoids a large repair bill. Economic points are available for other things. One further doesn’t need to build as large a repair infrastructure quite so soon. Larger ships are also free on that turn to attack other capital systems (which will be much more lightly defended) simultaneously, or to engage in offensive operations outside the enemy capital hex. And by not facing potential shortfalls in economic points and/or repair capacity, one avoids a strategic stall in the theater.
The disadvantage, as pointed out, is the loss of SEQ pinning ships, which are gone forever. While they can be “replaced” from new construction and/or mothball activations, one’s overall SEQ numbers will always be that much lower as one has voluntarily destroyed pinning ships from the original fleets.
[Corrections/alternatives to anything in this post are more than welcome!]
--Mike
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, May 08, 2021 - 10:04 pm: Edit |
The purpose of the large battle force I previously listed wasn't just to kill 3-4 PDUs (it's bigger than needed for that) but to be big enough to survive if the defenders roll well. One can put smaller forces that include fighter factor squadrons or carrier groups, but this incurs the risks of outright losing several ships or even battle force annihilation.
Generally one wants to avoid this if one can.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, May 09, 2021 - 12:25 pm: Edit |
Yeah, I mean, the reason you put up a huge BF is not that you desperately want to do more damage (although that's a good reason). The reason to put up a huge battle force is so that you don't have to self kill things and lose permanent SEQ.
I mean, self killing a few battle group ships here and there to keep DN's on the line is a choice. But losing six or eight or 10 ships because you put up little stuff and they rolled high (and this would happen with those smaller lines) is not something you want to repeat.
The only reason to put up lower value lines is to protect good ships. If they have enough COMPOT (as is the case over a shipyard) to force self kills, then this doesn't apply, and you are saving ships -by putting up a good line- not by hiding your DN's out of the battle force.
| By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, May 09, 2021 - 03:39 pm: Edit |
Mike
Three relevant points need to be taken into account.
Flagships : Remember, you need 1 of the 3 highest Command Rating Ships to lead the Battle Force (accepting Minority Flagship rules, which might allow you to get say 3 Lyran DN's with say 2 or 3 other Lyran ships to ignore the Lyran DN's for Flasgship purposes - but high compot when you need it).
So, unless your only fighting 1 or 2 rounds and then running - you probably would need to include a Lyran BC and accept it will die with the rest of the Cannon Fodder
Owed Points : Its possible there may be only a couple of owed points from an approach battle, but unless the Defender has empty fighter bays - those PDU fighters will become owed points - so even if you got say 15 damage, there will be up to 7 owed points for the next round. So if your happy to burn through two Cannon Fodder lines, you might not get enough on the subsequent round.
(There are ways to help keep the enemy with empty fighter bays, but that's not certain to always work).
Annihilation : Unless it was just a 'raid' and all of the attacker is dead, the excess damage dealt does remain for the next round.
In other words - for 'one off battles' over a planet - putting up a Cannon Fodder line may make sense - but if your aiming to stay 2 or more rounds at that location, it doesn't pay to put up rubbish.
(So as an example, the Coalition could attack the Capital in 1401 with Cannon Fodder to strip 2-4 PDU's off the Planet - and smash every other planet - but they can't go back to the Capital planet).
Hope this helps!
| By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, May 14, 2021 - 06:15 pm: Edit |
RE: More Capital Assault Strategies
Excellent points Paul, thanks for taking the time to write them up.
* I would definitely abuse the minority rule and bring a strong Lyran minority into the hex, both as a threat for the Hydran player and to take advantage if an opportunity to up the COMPOT of a force.
* The owed homeless PDU fighters point is interesting. If the Hydrans choose to fight approach battles, then I imagine they would then absorb some approach casualties as fighters and create empty bay space. Then once the small force goes in to attack the capital planet PDUs, the homeless PDU fighters would land in the empty bays created in the approach. I would also attack other less defended planets in the other Hydran systems simultaneously, and that would most likely result in some Hydran fighter casualties and bay space creation as well.
* Avoiding the resolution of the excess damage dealt to the small annihilated force is the whole point of the tactic. Rather than sending a large force to a well defended capital planet, and then absorbing all the damage and paying for all the repairs, one simply repeatedly sends in small forces to kill PDUs and let the overage damage accumulate. On the next round the overage damage from the prior round doesn’t kill the next small force at the same planet any deader -- annihilation is annihilation. Once the PDUs have been reduced enough, retreat from the hex and come back next turn. All the overage damage over that capital planet just goes away. It was never resolved to destroy or cripple ships, nor does it have to be repaired.
I think it boils down to how much EP a player is willing to spend on repairs in order to kill very few or no ships. Generally I agree one wants to repair as much as possible to maintain and grow your fleet size. But in the case of a heavily defended capital I’d not want to spend what might be 45 EPs or more per round repairing all that damage. I’d rather send in some small fleets to reduce the capital PDU defenses, and then bring in stronger fleets when the defenders COMPOT has been reduced to a more manageable level. Others certainly may prefer other strategies, as it fits into ones overall plan to win the game.
[Please feel free to comment on any corrections or rules misunderstandings in the above!]
Thanks.
--Mike
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, May 15, 2021 - 01:11 pm: Edit |
Well, I can give the example in this game. The remaining combat hex going on right now is the Hydran capital 617. The Coalition does not have the guns to take it, but has spent a couple of command points to efficiently devastate the outer planets. Killing the PDUs and fighting the waste round (when the PDU fighters result in huge involuntary minus points) has so far cost a D6D and about 13 EP of repair costs (the Hydrans have lost 8 PDU and fighters).
If the Hydrans continue to put up lines over the empty planets, they risk trading hulls with the Coalition (not good, generally). If they don't, there will be one more fight as the Coalition kill PDU on the remaining minor.
So the Coalition will take something under 20 EPs (or some higher amount balanced by Hydran hull losses) in repairs to devastate two majors and two minors (one is actually being redevastated), which is a loss of 8 EPs per minor (16) and 12 EPs per major (15, since redevastating the other major will extend devastation by one turn).
In the end, the Coalition will spend about 30 EP (including 10 for CPs) to eliminate about 30 Hydran EP over four turns.
The Coalition wants to do this, because:
1. These are EPs in the shipyard hex, and part of the Coalition's strategy (no secret now) is to cut the shipyard off and starve it (meaning these lost EPs are lost ship builds, not just lost discretionary income);
2. These are Hydran EPs which are more valuable than Coalition EPs because they are scarce and because the Hydrans have better ships to buy than anything the Coalition has in the Galactic West.
3. The Coalition has 3 FRD + SB two hexes away to conduct repairs, and enough SEQ to pin out the Hydrans on AT10 even with a few cripples not counted.
All that said, nothing is free and the Coalition is looking at big repair bills for a while after CT10.
| By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, May 15, 2021 - 02:51 pm: Edit |
It's not a good measure to count the Hydrans as having 30 EP lost over four turns; you'd likely get those planets devastated next turn if you held off doing it this turn, so really you only cost the Hydrans one turn of income loss as next turn is going to be lost regardless of what you do this turn. The cost to the Coalition might overall be less if you wait until the following turn to devastate the planets.
| By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, May 15, 2021 - 10:45 pm: Edit |
I seriously considered bailing, but in the end I wanted to fight; I have been playing pincount games a lot since the fall of 1401, and I want to start reducing the Alliance fleets, if I can. I didn't succeed very well, but you won't kill ships if you don't fight.
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