Jason and I are restarting our game, and ironically (based on the title), it will be pretty much the same as the last one.

We will be using a similar rules set to SCD3, which is most of CO, FO, and AO, but removing a few rules (as well as a couple from the base rule set). Looking at them all:

-From Base 2K10: Remove ship captures (don’t like having to remember). Add “you can always sub an FF” (i.e. you can always build an FF instead of any ship on your production schedule). Only Klingons get BBs (using B10 construction rule), except for Federation Reaction (from AO). No Orions in any capacity other than abstract smuggling.

-From CO: Remove SFGs, 77th PF Division, 23rd FiCon Division, Monitors, SAF, Ground Combat (replace all G ships with base hull; ignore G Aux ships), Prime Teams, Police Ships (except to react to raids; all POLs are compot 4).

-From FO 2016: Remove Swarms, Wild SWACs. Long Term Capture (mostly to avoid having to figure out map status).

-From AO: Ignore Admiral Quality (use regular Admirals); remove Logistics Task Force (Feds can build FDX like Klingons); Penal ships; use Fed Reaction (opting to use optional rule).

-Ships: Anything in any of these expansions; no ships not from these expansions (which mostly include FFTs, most NCA variants, a lot of weird late war stuff; I’m pretty sure that rues for HDWQ survey ships are not in these expansions and only are available in an expansion we aren’t using).

As per last time, the rules selected for removal were done so based on:

A) Avoiding extra fiddly steps for the purposes of making PBEM a little more streamlined (i.e. ship captures, SFGs, Ground assault, Penal Ships, PTs).

B) Balancing out things that were taken out to streamline (Monitors and Police Ships which are not particularly fiddly but mostly Advantage Alliance; LTF is pure Advantage Fed).

No option points for either side.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 - 06:34 pm: Edit

HDWQ are in AO (525.23Q) ...

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, July 13, 2021 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Im asking Peter if he wants to have multiple rounds of combat for pinning battles with large numbers of ships.

Something like:
Minimum 30 ships each, or Minimum 15 ships but more than 80 ships in total - 2 rounds of combat
Minimum 60 ships each, or Minimum 30 ships but more than 150 ships in total - 3 rounds of combat
Minimum 100 ships each, or Minimum 50 ships but more than 250 ships in total - 4 rounds of combat

So 100 ships attack 8 ships its the usual lose a FF and run, but if it was 100 ships vs 15 ships then 2 rounds happen.

Ive just never liked 150 or 200 ships turning up and trading a Frigate. Even with the above rules the most likely outcome is 2 or 3 Frigates die but at least its something.

What it may do is see a few big damage battles happening when there arent enough fighters to lose an escorting FF and 18 fighters on the 2nd or 3rd round of combat.

Im not sure if this helps Alliance or Coalition more. Both have a LOT of fighters generally. Though the Lyrans probably get hurt the most out of this as all the Alliance have a ton of fighters.

Anyway, maybe Im missing a game breaking thing and this is a bad idea.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 02:43 am: Edit

Jason

Any rule which can increase the number of ships dying will help the side with the most ships.

So probably would hurt the Alliance early on - and might hurt the Romulans if the Alliance lives long enough.

Plus (and probably from a game point, not ideal) - you will have to count ships and not ship equivalents (unless the game board will track that for you - can Vassal do that - Cyberboard can't automatically do that?).

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 04:50 am: Edit

Fair call on this aiding the Coalition early, but once the Feds are in the game they will have fun.

I also think that while it may aid the side with the most ships, I also think it will help the side with the most fighters as they can burn 2 or 3 turns worth, while someone like the Lyrans will have to be crippling ships.

For the counting of ships, that is probably easy to do. The count happens anyway when planning the pinning and you just make a note of Ships, Fast ships, and Fighters.

Or just base it on Ship Equivalents which is certainly counted for the pin count.

Cheers.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 08:04 am: Edit

Stewart wrote:
>>HDWQ are in AO (525.23Q) ...>>

I'm pretty sure they actually aren't. I think they are mentioned in AO, but they don't actually appear there.

[EDIT] Yep, if you look up HDWQs in the master SIT, they are listed as being in "Future" expansion, not AO.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 08:08 am: Edit

Jason wrote:
>>Anyway, maybe Im missing a game breaking thing and this is a bad idea.>>

I think this will be brutal on the Alliance early on--when they don't have many ships, and are struggling to get escorts into play, the Coalition will likely be able to pick off an FF and then force a second round to kill an actual escort much of the time.

I don't think that giant pin battles even actually happen that much, when I think about it (but they'd probably happen more if they Coalition could use them to kill more good escorts :-). It's rare that you are gonna send 75 ships somewhere and just have an open map pin fight for a round. I mean, yeah, it does happen sometimes, but I don't think enough to really need to adjust them.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 12:24 pm: Edit

CT1

And we are off!

Nothing particularly weird happens in setup. The Kzinti have the whole Count's fleet including a giant reserve on SB 0902; the bulk of the Duke's Fleet is set up in 1003 (17 ships, 16+[6] fighters), leaving an FF at BATS 1004 and 4 ships (plus the auxes) as a reserve at SB 1304.

The Lyrans have the traditional 6 ships in 0707, most of the Home Fleet in 0608, most of Red Claw in 0705, some CAs at SB 0404 to become CCs, and a CL left in the capital.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Just to be clear, who has which side? Maybe I missed it. In 1-2-3 you swapped, but SCD3 was short, so maybe this is a reset of that one?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Oh, heh, yeah, I'm the Alliance, Jason is the Coalition again.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Can we see the Map at setup...

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, July 14, 2021 - 08:33 pm: Edit

Peter, that (HDWQ) was in my copy of AO (which was not listed as being updated, 2003), though it did state that the Q must go off-map and that has been changed for a bit more flexibility ...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 15, 2021 - 08:21 am: Edit

I don't have my rules here, so can't check, but I'm pretty sure that AO mentions HDWQ, but the actual ships/stats/counters/whatever didn't come with AO.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 15, 2021 - 08:29 am: Edit

CT1

The Lyrans build BC, TGC, 4CW, 2DW, DWS, 3FF, LAV, FRD; convert CL>BC and 9CA>CC; end econ with about 20 EPs.

The Klingons build D7C, TGA, D6M, D5S, 8D5, 4F5, 5E4, FRD. Convert D6>D6M, D6>D6S, 2F5>F5S, 2F5>F5V, 2D6>D6D; end econ with about 1EP.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 16, 2021 - 08:22 am: Edit

CT1

Moves are underway! The treacherous Lyrans have crossed the Kzinti border!

As of press time, the Lyrans dropped most of the home fleet on the undefended BATS in 0803; they went there first, so the Duke's Fleet (1003) didn't react in, but an FF in 1004 moved a hex closer. The Kzinti also reacted a fighter squadron from the BATS into 0704, pinning an FF. The Lyrans then sent most of the Red Claw fleet to BATS 0703. The Kzinti reacted most of the Count's Fleet on SB 0902 to defend it. The Lyrans now have about 10 ships left to move; the Kzinti have the whole Duke's Fleet in 1003 to react to things, and then 2 reserves (one 3 ships in 0902, one 4 ships in 1304) to go places.

We'll see what happens!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 18, 2021 - 10:35 am: Edit

CT1

Moves are done, and reserves have been deployed!

Nothing particularly clever happened on either side; the Lyran Home Fleet is fighting over undefended BATS 0803 (which doesn't even have fighters); most of the rest of the Lyrans are fighting BATS 0703, where there are plenty of Kzinti to defend it. The Duke's Fleet in 1003 didn't get to move (as they didn't react on the one opportunity they had to do so to 0803).

There was a vague possibility that the Lyrans in 0803 could have ended the turn out of supply (due to a possible reserve going to the independent fighters fight in 0704 in the NZ), but it required the Lyrans to do everything I wanted them to, and then BATS 0703 not being killed, etc. None of those things lined up, so mostly what will happen is BATS 0803 will be killed for nothing, BATS 0703 might or might not die, and nothing dramatic occurs.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - 07:48 am: Edit

T1C is now over.

In 0803 the Lyrans had an FF crippled and took out the BATS.

In 0703 the Kzinti decided they wanted to fight so the Lyrans spent a CP and had a Compot in the high 90s over the 5 rounds of combat.

The Kzinti stayed while they had carriers but the Lyrans were targeting escorts with the Kzinti losing 2xCLE, 2xEFF (Peter had the carriers stay on the line after losing their light escorts so the Lyrans took advantage and went for the heavy escorts). The Kzinti targeted FF, 2xCW, and a CA. On the 5th round it was the Lyrans against just the BATS.

The Lyrans which went to 0703 and 0803 stayed put other than the cripples which went to the SB.

The Lyran New construction went to 0705 and set up Reserves with a couple of LAVs and a SAV.

The Klingon New construction mostly went to 1407 but a few E4 and F5S spread out over the NW border BATS.

Killed
Lyran: CA, 2xCW, DD
Kzinti: 2xBATS, 2xCLE, 2xEFF

Crippled
Lyran: CW, 3xDD, FF
Kzinti: None

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - 09:44 am: Edit

CT1

What Jason said!

The only actual fight was over 0703, and as noted, the Lyrans used a command point, we fought 4 rounds (plus a 5th vs a crippled abandoned BATS). I shot down CA, 2CW, FF and crippled 3 or 4 ships; the Lyrans killed 2CLE and 2EFF. And the BATS.

The Lyrans ended the turn with 30+ ships in 0803, another 20+ ships in 0703, and 2 solid reserves in 0705. Of note is that the Lyrans have no TGs inside Kzinti space, or in either reserve (i.e. no possibility of a Lyran supply point within 6 of the Kzinti Capital on T2).

Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD4CT1end.html

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - 09:47 am: Edit

The Lyrans have other fish to fry. Or are happy to be out of supply or something. Im sure they have a plan.

The Klingons... well they just want to go Smash Smash.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - 10:25 am: Edit

AT1

y168 FA T1

Kzinti Econ:

Command Points: 0+1=1

Exploration: (3) 0+15=15 (+0, 20 next)

Treasury: 4.25 (CT1)

On Map Provinces (24): 22
Off Map Provinces (6): 6
Captured Provinces: 0
On Map Planets: (52): 52
Off Map Planets: (11): 11
Captured Planets: 0

Total EP: 95.25

Construction T1:
-6 TGT (BC)
-5 2FF (CL)
-2.5 FF (DD)
-3 FFK
-2.5 FF
-6 2SP
-5 CP
-28 4PDU (Kzintai, 12)

Construction Total: 58

Conversions:
-5 BC>CV (1401, 6FFF)
-3 BC>BCE, 2CL>CLE (1704)
-2 2CL>CLE (0ff map)

Conversion Total: 10

Repairs:

Repair Total:

Adopt Homeless Ships:

Total Spent: 68

Treasury: 27.25

FFF Left: 0

TGC in 1401 picks up BP; new TGT picks up 2SP; TGT in 1704 picks up 2SP; TGT off map pick up 2VP.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - 04:40 pm: Edit

AT1

The Kzinti successfully raided a Lyran province with their DNL raider from the Capital.

Moves are done and I'm waiting for the Lyrans to send reserves. The Kzinti sent a battle line to Lyran BATS 0502, which is undefended but for an FF, but 2 moderate Lyran reserves can reach it. No other battle hexes, mostly the Kzinti pulled ships back to defend their SBs and the Capital.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - 01:35 am: Edit

T1A is now pretty much complete. The Kzinti mostly ran away to their rat holes, but a small fleet did decide to go beat up on 0502 which was only defended by a brave FF.

The Lyrans could have let it fall and keep the Reserves in range of more Kzinti space, or send the Reserves and save the BATS.

They sent the reserves and saved the BATS.

Killed
Lyran: DW
Kzinti: BC

Crippled
Lyran: None
Kzinti: None

End of turn moves are coming, then reserves will be set.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - 08:18 am: Edit

*"cat" holes

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - 08:51 am: Edit

AT1

The turn is over!

As noted, only one fight--the Kzinti moved a not great battle line to attack Lyran BATS 0502, got jumped on by the Lyran reserves, traded a BC for a DW (i.e. not a great trade), and fled. All I really accomplished was pulling a dozen Lyran ships to a slightly less advantageous location.

At the end of the turn, the Kzinti have about a dozen ships at SB 0902, about 15 ships at SB 1304, about 50 in the Capital (including the reserve).

There are two reserves--a full solid reserve in the Capital, and a full, slightly less solid reserve at SB 1704 made of most of the Marquis fleet that will be released (and if they aren't, the Kzinti are already winning! Woo!).

I'm not gonna post a map, as, well, it doesn't actually look different :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - 10:30 am: Edit

CT2

The Lyrans start with about 140 EPs; they build DN, TGC, 4CW, 2DW, DWS, 3FF, LAV, MB; they fix the crippled ships they have. End econ with about 46 EPs.

The Klingons start with about 143 EPs; they build C8, D6M, TGA, D5S, 8D5, 4F5, 5E4, MB; activate 2D6, 2F5, 4E4, E4A (they did the same last turn too); convert D6>D6M, D6>D6S, 3F5>F5S, 2F5>FV, 2D6>D6D. They end econ with exactly zero EPs.