You missed the obvious title...

"And Now FOUR Something Completely Different!"

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - 11:35 am: Edit

Damnation!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, July 21, 2021 - 01:19 pm: Edit

CT2

This just in! The Lyrans forgot to sub a CL for a CW, and then convert it to a BC at the Capital, so they did that instead of not doing it (meaning they are down 7EPs and a CW, and now up a BC).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 22, 2021 - 10:01 am: Edit

CT2

No raids, and moves are underway!

The Lyrans have pinned the 15 some odd ships at SB 0902; the Klingons sent most of the NR Fleet to SB 1304. The exciting move was the the Klingon North Fleet went straight to 1401. The Klingons had 53 SEQ; the Kzinti, taking a gamble, reacted out 53 SEQ worth of ships and fighters to pin them out. The Kzinti now have 4SEQ left in a reserve in the capital, a handful of AUXes, fixed defenses, and then a 12 ship reserve over the Marquis SB that can reach it. The Lyrans have the 32 ship Home Fleet sitting in 0802 which can make it to the Capital (and also a CF in 0703), but if they do, they will be out of supply, and the Home Fleet isn't that impressive (DN, 3CC, CA, 2CW, the rest 6 and smaller; only a single SC for EW support).

Excting! And possibly a terrible idea!

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, July 22, 2021 - 12:02 pm: Edit

No guts, no glory!

--Mike

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Thursday, July 22, 2021 - 01:04 pm: Edit

I'm with Mike Erickson. I send home fleet and offer approach as many times as the Kzinti will take you up on it.

If the Kzinti refuse approach, then they have an 8 ship static force. Assuming that's all at the home system, then you can pick up some outer minors relatively cheaply. Hit them one at a time, and see if the Kzinti let you attrition their mobile force, or if they let you have the minors for almost nothing. They'll probably elect to defend the first few, but with 32 ships vs. 8 + 2PDU, you can afford to direct an outer escort or an FF and let the rest of the damage fall and watch the Kzinti kill their own PDU and damage their planet for you.

Then on to the next till you run out of minors or start to run short on uncrippled ships.

In the unlikely event that the Kzinti put significant static forces outside the home system, then go for the home system and kill as many PDU as you can then run for it.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, July 22, 2021 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Assuming nothing changes, if the Lyrans sent their Home Fleet to 1401, they'd have:

DN+ADM, 3CC, CA, 2CW, 4CL, 4DW, HDD, 7DD, HFF, 7FF, SC

The Kzinti would have:

DN+ADM, 2CV, CVL, BCE, 2CLE, 4EFF, 2BC, FFK, TTS (TGT+SP), 2LAV+0, SAV+0, LAD, 2SAD, LAS, SAS

The Lyrans have no maulers, no fighters to speak of, and a significant EW disadvantage. It might be worth it for them anyway. It might not?

They'd get heavily crippled, and then not be able to retrograde cripples (no Lyran supply points within 6 of 1401), and on AT2, the Kzinti could land a lot of ships on top of a pile of crippled, out of supply Lyrans. But maybe still a good idea?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 22, 2021 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Well, my 2 cent would be - as there is not enough Kzinti to defend two systems - a raid could do modest damage with limited losses to the Lyrans.

But - any crippled will be stuck after retreating which would be safe from too much harm (Coalition don't fear retreating with a stack of crippled ships - well until a Mauler or two is captured....).


All depends how risky the Kzinti want to play it (i.e. the Static stuff doesn't go the Capital)…

...Could be a huge success for the Lyrans…. or a total disaster.

Strips 3 PDU's off the Capital and devastate 5 minors.... and take 15 cripples - it looks rosy.

Only get 1 PDU and 3 minors devastated and have 20 crippled - perhaps other options should have been looked at

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, July 22, 2021 - 08:36 pm: Edit

Im still doing my moves. I still really dont know if I will attack it.

I dont think I would touch the Capital. But I certainly could hit all the Minors, even if not devastating them.

Peter also missed an E4 and F5S which can make it. The E4 obviously doesnt do much, but having a 2nd Scout makes a big difference. Also means I can have those 2 ships be crippled and get them to a Klingon base.

It feels like the sort of big risk, big reward, big loss move that shortens the game. But Im not sure if I want that.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 02:53 am: Edit

Are the LAV's and SAV's empty of fighters?

Yes, that F5S could make a big difference.

14 (including the F5S) odd compot hulls is a modest number of hulls to cripple... and it would drag the Kzinti reserve to 1401.

BUT, there is also the Tactical effect which will occur with say a dozen cripple Lyran hulls on turn 2 AND then being out of position on turn 3?

Choices choices choices.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 08:29 am: Edit

CT2

And in the end, Jason decided that attacking the capital was too risky, and just bolstered assaults on other targets.

He and I both mostly agreed that it was both risky, and if dice went the wrong way, he'd end up getting mangled for not much gain, especially given that the Coalition can freely just march into the Capital with 100 ships on T3, get about the same (if not much better) results, and not take the risks.

For the approach, the Kzinti could have had something like:

DN+ADM, [CV, BCE, EFF, EFF], [CV, CLE, EFF], 2BC, TTS (FRM), 6IFF, FFK, (LAS), (LAD, 2SAD:14)=103/7

The Lyrans could get up, using 2 command points (for +1 in each system):

DN+ADM (c/f), 3CC, CA, CF, [2CW, 4DW], F5S, CL=100/3

The Kzinti have basically infinite 6IFF squadrons to burn from the Capital, and extra fighters on ships, and another [CVL, CLE, EFF] group in reserve. And once the PDUs in the capital start dropping, the carriers get refilled. I mean, it would certainly be messy, but if the Lyrans roll bad and the Kzinti roll well, it is probably a disaster. If the Lyrans roll well and the Kzinti don't, they retreat to fighting over planets, get a few planets devastated a turn early, and probably aren't that far behind where they would be otherwise.

I don't think it would have been a terrible idea for the Lyrans to have sent a dozen ships to the Capital, just to pull the reserve, but I think not attacking was honestly probably the safer plan; history has indicated that the Coalition tend to do just fine if they follow a conservative path.

So we got 6 battle hexes: BATS 0701 (will just be killed), SB 0902 (will be killed, but the Kzinti can fight for a while), planet 1001 (will just be captured), BATS 1004 (will just be killed), SB 1304 (dicey--might explode, might not, the Kzinti have about 2 dozen ships there, facing, like, 50 ships), BATS 1405 (will just die).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 11:59 am: Edit

Well, it hasn't cost the Coalition the War - but if I was the Lyrans - I would have sent probably 20 ships (probably DN+ADM, 3CC, 2CW, 7DD, HFF, 4FF and the SC plus the F5S) to 1401.... to ensure the reserve goes there.

If it didn't turn up - 2 10 Ship groups would have some fun over the minors.... and could engage the Aux's if they defended!

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 05:30 pm: Edit

What I do get is both SB unless the rolls go really badly. And I should be able to trash the Capital on T3 and clean up the rest of Kzinti space.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 06:21 pm: Edit

C2 against the Kzinti is all about hitting them where they are weakest and making sure during C1/A1 that you will have enough good ships within range of 1401 to encourage the Kzintis to put more ships there (or to punish them if they don't).

Generally that means as many Lyran cruisers and pin count as you can (plus some command rating 10 units) and for the Klingons to have enough command rating 10/9 units, whatever maulers they can get any drone ships that are available all within range of 1401 on C2, so that a potential raid is as well equipped as possible. This takes planning during C1/A1. Even if the Kzinti are strong in 1401, it may be possible to (over)pin a reserve there (presumably the 2nd reserve is in 1704) and get a round in at each major planet backed by a mauler for cheap PDU kills and then retreat while still busting 0902 for cheap (usually this will be the easier SB) as well as as many planets and bases as you can get.

Such a limited raid on 1401 (if possible) can net you the best return while minimizing potential losses to whatever are in two lines. Painful though it is, don't send Coalition carriers to 1401 in this case, as their combat density is awful. Use them at base and planet battles where their low density doesn't matter against undefended targets (ie D6 FV F5 F5 vs a BATS and suchlike as the case may be). You'll probably get to use up most of your fighters and be able to use your better ships at stronger defensive points. You might go with 5-6 ships, such as F5L FV 2F5 E4 E4A and whatnot as reserves probably won't go to such battles (and if they do, you just lose an F5+E4).

Again, it's all about the pre-planning.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 06:24 pm: Edit

With really good planning, sometimes it's possible to send attacks past 1304 (not entering 1304) while keeping back enough ships to take down 1304 if the defensive forces react off.

Then once you have your attacks on the inner patriarchy set up, and the attacks on bases within two of 1304 set up, you can take your force you were threatening 1304 with, and send it elsewhere, strengthening other attacks while leaving 1304 defenders out of the picture for C2. This can help hammer the Kzintis on C2.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 07:00 pm: Edit

>>Well, it hasn't cost the Coalition the War - but if I was the Lyrans - I would have sent probably 20 ships (probably DN+ADM, 3CC, 2CW, 7DD, HFF, 4FF and the SC plus the F5S) to 1401.... to ensure the reserve goes there.>>

Don't need 20. A single line (CC, 2CC, [3CL, 3DW], 2DD, (SC)) would probably force my reserve to go the capital, and would make fighting over SB 1304 way easier. Perhaps the Lyrans will do that before combat starts...

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 07:04 pm: Edit

I hot 1304 with Northern Reserve and had North hit 1401. Peter gambled on pinning North in 1402 and having the risk of being out of supply be enough to have the Lyrans go elsewhere.

If I get 0902 and 1304 fairly cheaply then I will consider that a win.

I will have 150 or so ships which can hit 1401 on T3 and will decide if I want to go Kzinti 1st or Hydran 1st.

Ive never done a Kzinti 1st so dont actually know what that entails.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Lots of destruction, or something a really bad Kzinti defense that instigated the strategy.

In an early game against Mr Calhoon I think I managed to get most of the Kzinti fleet pinned outside of 1401 somehow and he got it fairly cheap, cuz he was a snaky bastard.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 09:22 pm: Edit

Also one thing not to forget after a C2 assault, if the cripple pile is overlarge, it can help to field repair stuff. Generally there's enough deficit spending available to go hog wild, which can really help blunt the Kzinti response if things got particularly bloody on C2 for the Coalition.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Can you field repair Lyrans when out of supply in 1302?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 08:14 am: Edit

Nope.

Field Repair takes place at a strategic movement node (i.e. field repair ships move to an SMN and fix ships there).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 08:18 am: Edit

CT2

This just in! Due to the fog of war, it turns out that the Lyrans actually sent about a dozen (15?) ships to the Kzinti Capital! This resulted in the Kzinti moving their Marquis reserve to 1401, and the 3 ship reserve in the capital stayed behind.

The Kzinti have 15 ships; the Lyrans have DN+ADM, CC, CA, CW, 3CL, 4DD, 4FF, SC. They will almost certainly be repelled in an approach and retreat out of supply, but with only a few crippled, likely nothing terrible will happen to them.

On the upside (for the Coalition), killing SB 0902 and 1304 will be way easier now.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Can the Lyrans do 1401 first, fighting retreat to 1402 and get into supply via fighting retreat? 1303 is in supply from BATS 0705, unless something is breaking the chain (1202?).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 02:42 pm: Edit

A) That would get the ships in 1402 mangled at BIR 10.

2) They would probably get cut out of supply again when the Kzinti in 1304 retreat.

So probably doesn't help.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 03:25 pm: Edit

The better option is retreating them near North fleet and hoping Klingon Reserves can get to them so the losses are minimised.

What is left will be in supply on T3C when the 1407 MB sets up.