What he said.

All things being equal, if the Lyrans just fight a single round of approach, there'll just be a few cripples (tops), and between Klingons around and reserves, probably nothing terrible happens.

If it was, like, 20 cripples, that'd be different.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Every ship crippled would be a major concern

My big decision is the big pile of ships in 1004 contains a few Aux carriers. Do they run back to 0705 or stay forward and keep the pressure on...

I can get them to 1407 on T3 via a Kzinti border BATS from 1004 but I would need to Strat them from 0705.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Thought I had posted this, this morning prior to going out

Which 4 Ship Equivalents was left in 1401?

Fleet including the reserve was DN+ADM, 2CV, CVL, BCE, 2CLE, 4EFF, 2BC, FFK, TTS (TGT+SP), 2LAV+0, SAV+0, LAD, 2SAD, LAS, SAS

I would guess the 4 ships left in 1401 was CV, BCE, EFF and FFK?) - so plus the AUX ships (the LAV and SAV being pretty useless....) -


If say CC, 2CC, [3CL, 3DW], 2DD, (SC) attacked...

...not sure I would send the reserve to 1401?

The 4 ships - plus 12 Fighters from PDU's, LAS, SAS and 3 Drone ships would be about 53/5...

- Lyrans only have 74/2...

So, yes a SAD gets directed on in the approach battle - Lyrans can probably only get 1 or 2 minor planets (or a raid to scrape some PDU's off the capital?)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 04:35 pm: Edit

…. - so how did the Lyrans sneak into 1401 in the end?

I am guessing the 3 Ship reserve wasn't going to make a difference anywhere?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 04:41 pm: Edit

How did they get in? They had 15 ships, and the Kzinti had 4SEQ that could react out (everything else was in 1402). I couldn't stop him from getting in the hex. But with the reserve showing up from 1704, they aren't going to get past the approach battle. The 3 ship reserve stayed behind to make sure the Lyrans didn't get past the approach.

(Unless you mean how they got there in the first place? We decided to rewind a little so that the Lyrans could send a dozen ships to the Capital to draw the reserves, as Jason realized that was way better than fighting the reserves over the SBs, and we hadn't started combat yet).

As such, the Coalition will be able to kill both 0902 and 1304 pretty painlessly (I mean, ships will explode and things will be crippled, but the Kzinti can't do that much in either spot), but the Capital remains undamaged for another turn.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 05:41 pm: Edit

CT2

Unsurprisingly, the Count's SB (0902) went down in 4 rounds for not much damage to the Lyrans. The Lyrans had about 30 ships; the Kzinti had 14 (half of which were FFs). The Lyrans lost 2CC, CW, DD and took a few more cripples; the Kzinti lost a BC, FFK, and the SB. 3 extra ships from the Capital reserve (DN, CV, EFF) might not have made the fight last longer, but certainly would have amplified the damage caused.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 07:16 pm: Edit

CT2

At 1401, the Lyrans offer an approach with their best line (82/2), the Kzinti meet them with a line of 101/7 (including free DBB from the LAD, 2SAD). The Kzinti roll well, drop 28 damage, the Lyrans shoot down one of the SADs (which costs 8 to replace...). The Lyrans flee with 6 cripples, the Kzinti pursue, catch them (but have to roll a die as we don't have a Fast ship in the hex), roll not that hot, kill a crippled dd, crippling another ship, and losing an EF.

The Lyrans retreated to 1302 and now are stranded out of supply with DN+ADM, CC, CA, SC, 2CL, 3FF, cw, cl, 3dd, ff. We'll see what happens next!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 24, 2021 - 10:29 pm: Edit

CT2

At 1304, the battle was shorter and a little more violent. The Coalitio nhad about 40 ships, the Kzinti about 15. On the first round (after declined approach), the Klingons rolled a 6 (at BIR8) with a 101 line, and dropped 40 with an autokill, vaporizing an FF and hitting a bunch of SIDS. On the second round, the Kzinti rolled a 6 with about 120 compot (BIR6), dropping 45, vaporizing an F5 and crippling a bunch of ships, but they didn't have much to take damage on when the Klingons dropped about 30, so the SB was crippled and the Kzinti fled, with the Klingons killing the SB on R3 for fighters and minus points.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 06:59 am: Edit

"(Unless you mean how they got there in the first place? We decided to rewind a little so that the Lyrans could send a dozen ships to the Capital to draw the reserves, as Jason realized that was way better than fighting the reserves over the SBs, and we hadn't started combat yet). "

Yes - that covers it (I as thought the Lyrans has decided not to attack 1401 and moves had been done!!!)


On the death of the SAD.... unless the Kzinti are rich, 8 Ep's could be better spent on a lot of other things

Just too expensive and too easy to kill - would a SAD get off more shots before a DF + Drone costs would in comparable battles (i.e. a DF can be used when ever you can afford it - a SAD will sit in the capital or 1704 on turn 7 - and therefore free bombardment will not occur often!).

on the SB's - so is losing 2 SB's on the cheap worth 1401 being unmolested on turn 2 (and mauling the Lyrans?)

What was defending them - as surprised 1304 only latest 2 rounds? (Accepting you might not get to use 11 SIDS, before retreating with 1 SID left and other than the Auto Kill, no damage was done to the Kzinti fleet).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 07:54 am: Edit

Oh, the Kzinti aren't going to replace that SAD in a million years. They have a spare one elswhere that needs to get to the Capital.

At 1304, the Kzinti had about 15 ships, but nothing to take damage on that didn't reduce their compot. So when on R1, the Lyrans rolled a 6 and dropped, like 40 damage, I could have crippled half the fleet (and then had an anemic compot on R2) to try and fight an extra round, or soak most of the damage on SIDs and at least have a solid R2. Which I did, rolled a 6, and did a lot of damage on R2. But again, the Kzinti had nothing to take damage on--fighters, a few SIDS, but once that was gone, there was nothing left to fight with. So they fled, avoiding getting their fleet crippled.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 08:06 am: Edit

CT2

The turn is over!

The Coalition killed SB 0902, 1304, BATS 0701, 1004, 1405, and captured planet 1001. Kzinti space is hacked up into a couple partial grids disconnected to the capital. The Count's Fleet (a dozen ships) are out of supply at the end of the turn, but will be able to buy their way back to supply (and get new fighters) from partial grid EPs during AT2 econ.

The Coalition left most of their ships in Kzinti space, retrograding cripples and some ships to BATS 0504 and 0704. The Lyrans have a couple small reserves in 0704 (about 7 ships total, plus an Aux); the Klingons have 2 full reserves in 1407.

Ships Killed:
-ZIN: BC, FFK, 2EFF, FF, SAD

-LYR: 2CC, CW, DD, (DD)
-KLI: D7C, 2F5

Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD4CT2end.html

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 09:45 am: Edit

AT2

y169 SP T2

Kzinti Econ:

Command Points: 1+1=2 (AT2)

Exploration: (3) 15+5=20 (+1, 40 next)

Treasury: 34.375 (CT2)

On Map Provinces (24): 11
Off Map Provinces (6): 8
Captured Provinces: 0
On Map Planets: (52): 42
Off Map Planets: (11): 11
Captured Planets: 0
Smuggled: 4.3

Total EP (1401): 110.675

Partial Grid 1202: 6
-2.4 (supply ships 1002)
-3.6 (smuggle 1.8 to 1401)

Partial Grid 1105: 5
-5 (smuggle 2.5 to 1401)

Construction T2:
-12 CV (BC, 6FFF)
-12 2MEC
-5 2FF (DD)
-4 FKE
-3 FFK
-3.5+6 FCR
-5 CP
-28 4PDU (Kzintai, 16)

Construction Total: 77.5

Conversions:
-4 CVL>CV (1401 1.5 FFF)
-1 DF>SDF (1401)
-0 DDV (off map, 3FFF)
-1 EFF>FKE (off map)
-1 DF>SDF (off map)

Conversion Total: 7

Repairs:

Repair Total:

Adopt Homeless Ships:

Total Spent: 85.5

Treasury: 25.175 (AT2)

FFF Left: 1.5 (AT2)

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 06:30 pm: Edit

I do love comparing the actual number of carriers the Kzinti have vs the T7 independent scenario. 5xCV groups with MEC and a CV with a CLE in the "Start at T7" one. But if starting from T1 you have 13 or 14 of them as the build schedule is pretty much build and/or convert a CV and the rest of the cash goes on FFs.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 07:15 pm: Edit

I think they based the T7 counts on SFB historical data, which had the Kzinti with a lot fewer CVs
than you typically see in F&E player games.

Perhaps historically (not reflected in F&E) the various nobility in the Patriarchy did not cooperate very well (on C2) and the Coalition were able to push the Kzinti back to 1401 right away/ LPerhaps the Kzintis then spent EPs on repairing ships, building up extra defenses in 1401 (futilely) rather than build more CVs. I mean, you could put extra PDUs on every planet in 1401 or something. :p

We all know the various powers did sub-optimal things in the historical general war (the Hydrans burned up their fleet, the Klingons attacked the Tholians are a couple that come to mind).

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 07:20 pm: Edit

Since (with even a modicum of careful play) the carriers don't really die, they do tend to pile up. And there isn't really another viable option for the Kzinti's to build.

--Mike

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Sunday, July 25, 2021 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Mike, yep, the carriers are a great idea (and really all the Kzinti have).

Every fleet having 3 carriers means you always have the option of trading an FF and run. Or you stay and have an attrition fight.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 12:50 am: Edit

I mean, the Kzinti CV is like a Y177 ship (a BCV) that is the only ship the Kzinti can build in Y167 that is even as good as everybody else's Y167 ships (no real scouts, no 5-point ships to cripple due to FFK limits, etc.). So yeah, they're popular with the eggheads in the high command.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 12:58 am: Edit

Im a fan of just building lots of CV. Peter would buy as many CVA as possible.

But really, what you want is the Feds to be able to build SCS. Those things are beyond ridiculous.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 05:33 am: Edit

"
By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 12:50 am: Edit


I mean, the Kzinti CV is like a Y177 ship (a BCV) that is the only ship the Kzinti can build in Y167 that is even as good as everybody else's Y167 ships (no real scouts, no 5-point ships to cripple due to FFK limits, etc.). So yeah, they're popular with the eggheads in the high command. "

To be fair - it was the one ship in the original game the Alliance got both a good ship and several of them.

Alas they get lumbered with some of the worst escorts (and now start the CLE's) and seems everyone else's carriers groups have got massively better.... but the Kzinti haven't.

For example - how comes the Romulans can now get 9 Compot Heavy Eescorts???? (and that's ignoring the DN Escort they can build).

So yes, the Kzinti CV is good...for afew years, and then is just average in comparisons to the groups that fly around them.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 05:55 am: Edit

Feds also struggle with good escorts too.

The Coalition get a lot of good ones.

But the Fed SCS...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 09:19 am: Edit

AT2

During the raid phase, a DNL crippled an FF (fighting a CL, FF holding a province) which then fled from Kzinti space, and a BF disrupted a Lyran province.

During op moves, the Kzinti didn't actually do that much. The Count's fleet attacked a small garrison around planet 1001, and will likely see the modest Lyran reserves show up.

Another force moved from the capital to link up with the Duke's fleet, which was pinned by the Coalition, and will probably get landed on by a pile of Klingon reserves.

If there was a pile of crippled Lyrans in 1303, I probably would have converged on that, but with only a handful of cripples, the advantages of doing so were outweighed by the disadvantages.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 11:06 am: Edit

AT2

The turn is over! Short and mercifully uncomplicated; the Coalition had a lot of ships, and the Kzinti, once they decided that they weren't going to try and kill the crippled, out of supply Lyrans, then decided that their main goal was being able to strat move to the capital, so not having a bunch of Klingons react adjacent was important.

Two short, uneventful fights, each one round, where each side directed what they could and the Coalition retreated immediately.

At the end of the turn, the Kzinti have about 85 ships and all the Auxes in 1401 (including a moderate reserve), a small reserve off map (6 ships that I won't miss fighting in the Capital); the Count's Fleet of a dozen ships retrograded off map (as it couldn't make it to the Capital). There is a brave CL stationed at BATS 1605.

Ships Killed:
-ZIN: FFK, FF

-LYR: DD
-KLI: D5

Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD4AT2end.html

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 08:22 pm: Edit

NZ hex 0805 should be Cap0 as it can't be captured on Turn #1 by (503.611) ...

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, July 26, 2021 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Ooh, the Lyrans will lose 0.2 EP as well. Thank you for pointing this out.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, July 27, 2021 - 07:56 am: Edit

That hex wasn't captured on CT1 (check the end of CT1 map). Those captured numbers change weirdly some times.