I think this may have gotten buried in a larger discussion:

Question: 600.322 allows an unreleased fleet in an area without a starbase to send a ship to the nearest starbase for conversion. How is "nearest" defined? Nearest to the deployment area or nearest to where the fleet has been positioned within its deployment area? I found this question posted in 2008, but it was not actually answered (the reply was that adding the starbase in the TBS territory to the Klingon Eastern Fleet's territory rendered the question moot). However, it's still worth answering as it could apply to multiple other situations. For example, the Klingon Southern Reserve starbase is closest to the Western Fleet's deployment area, but the Western Fleet could be placed such that the closest starbase is in the capital hex.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, July 30, 2021 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Q431.21 Does the following from (431.21) allow me to build a second MB and/or second FRD in the same turn?
(431.21) Additional units may be produced at the higher “overproduction” cost.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, July 30, 2021 - 06:08 pm: Edit

How is "nearest" defined?

I'd say whichever SB is closest from the ship to be converted ... If equal distance, pick one ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 12:43 am: Edit

I like Stewart's answer.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 10:53 am: Edit

Re: The Conversion Question

I mean, I agree that it certainly might come up, and probably could use some clarification (although Stewart's answer is probably the easiest and most reasonable answer), but realistically, is this something that actually happens?

I've played this game an awful lot for a long time, and I don't think I have ever, or ever seen anyone ever, move a ship out of an unactivated area without a starbase to a nearby starbase to get converted.

Are there even fleet deployment areas that *don't* have a SB? Possibly the Klingon East Fleet didn't have one originally, till they decided to add the TBS SB to the East Fleet?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 11:28 am: Edit

The East Fleet starts that way. In player campaigns there could be such situations in home made scenarios.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 11:30 am: Edit

The Klingon Eastern Fleet (until the TBS redeployment), the Klingon Western Fleet, the Romulan Patrol Detachment, the Gorn Second and Sixth Fleets, and the Tholian Second Fleet lack starbases. In many of these cases, it won't matter because the fleet is released as part of that empire going to war, but it could come up in a non-historical game.

In my current game (which also happens to be my first game so I could technically argue that it has come up in EVERY game I've played ), my opponent sent a ship from the Western Fleet to the capital for conversion under the theory that the capital was the closest starbase to where he had placed that fleet. I didn't necessarily think he was wrong and allowed the move, but since "nearest" had two different definitions that could both be justified, I figured I would clarify for future reference.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 11:52 am: Edit

I think the situation this question is really applicable to is when an inactive ship desires to leave its deployment area to head over to the capital for a big conversion (D6-->D6M). The smaller conversions can be done at a local SB mostly likely in their initial area.

And thanks to John for posting the ruling on this previously.

--Mike

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Mike wrote:
>>I think the situation this question is really applicable to is when an inactive ship desires to leave its deployment area to head over to the capital for a big conversion (D6-->D6M).>>

Which then begs the question, why would the Klingons need to move an inactive D6 anywhere to convert to a D6M, when they have scads and scads of active and newly activated (and built) D6's, and converting an active ship is always going to be a better plan than converting an inactive ship?

I mean, again, yes. This is probably something that could use an actual answer, and might, in some weird corner case, come up. But I think in practice, this is all an academic exercise :-)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 31, 2021 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Copied from Q&A


"By Ryan Opel (Feast) on Tuesday, July 27, 2021 - 08:14 pm: Edit


Quote:

Q: In my current game we are about to enter Turn #7 without a Klingon attack on the Federation. This puts the Federation into a Limited War situation and says it can send the Fourth Fleet into Kzinti space. The rules state that the Federation Home and Third Fleets are able to move freely inside of Federation space. Does this also allow ships in those fleets to be converted?
A: The second-to-last sentence of (654.2Y) in the F&E2KX rulebook [Fighter Operations (602.49B)] covers this. This is the section that is about what is not allowed when at Limited War. It says "Anything not otherwise covered." This means no, the ships in the Home and Third Fleets cannot be converted as they are not expressly permitted to be converted by that rule. For those who were not aware, the original rule (602.49) defining endless details of Limited War was published in Fighter Operations and, with very minor edits, became rule (654.0) in F&E2KX.


What about players converting ships during peacetime using Diplomatic Income? (540.23) says "Any EPs generated under this rule in peacetime could be spent at the owner's discretion." Does this allow converting ships in unreleased fleets? I.e. any fleet during peace, any unreleased fleet during limited war?

Ryan Opel 27 July 21

===============

REF:


(600.32) UPGRADES: The ships, but not the bases, of an inactive fleet can be converted at the starbases in that fleet’s area if the empire is on Wartime status. Ships from other friendly fleets can enter the area to use repair/conversion facilities.

(600.323) An empire not on wartime status cannot perform conversions of its ships.
FEDS: I think we may have a rule contradiction as the above SPECIFIC rules make it clear that conversion of ships ARE permitted when an empire is under a wartime status. These seem to form a contradiction between (600.32) and (600.323) with (654.2Y).

FEDS thinks that ship conversions ARE permitted during any wartime status based on (600.32) and (600.323) and that (654.2Y) should be corrected.}

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, July 28, 2021 - 12:29 am: Edit


Ryan, that is an SO question. be sure it gets into that topic.

"

If it helps - it seems the last bullet point of 602.49B just needs to be deleted - as any rule expansion would need a specific rule if it could be used by an Empire at Limited War.

The specific question though would seem to make an Empire at Limited War, weaker than an Empire at Peace - which logically does not make sense - i.e. why restrict a power which is in effect doing some aggressive actions - when a power fully at peace has more free reign?

So the Romulans or Gorns can convert what they like using diplomatic income.... the Klingons can convert ships in unreleased fleets - yet a power such as the Federation - which can manoeuvre the Home and Third fleets within Federation space, can't convert any?

I think 602.43 provides an easy answer in that where something is 'partially available' - in that this rule can be expanded to include that the Fleet AREA remains unreleased, but the FLEET is released to operate within a specified area - i.e. the Home and Third fleets are unreleased - but only within Federation space and the areas which was covered by those Fleets remains unreleased (other than MB's being able to be deployed).

Suggested wording

(602.43) Limited Availability. The Federation Home and Third Fleets (see Annex 702) can maneuver within Federation territory. In effect 'Limited Availability' creates a third definition for Fleets and Fleet Areas, which sits between Active and Un-active.

Limited Availability splits the Fleet away from the Fleet Area.

The Fleet Area remains unreleased (other than MB's being able to be deployed)

The Fleet is released for all intents and purposes, but until full war occurs - is inly released to operate within the Empires own territory.

Limited Availability may cover other Empires and Fleets and the appropriate restrictions would be covered in any Scenario Specific rules."

Hope this helps.

P.S. Will try to add to Warbook FO (where the expanded rules are in and not SO - I think that was a mistype) - but I don't think any topics are open.

By Stefano Predieri (Preda) on Sunday, August 01, 2021 - 08:37 am: Edit

To bolster our Hidran first, in our last game we had 2 D6 of west fleet upgraded to a D6V and a D6D in turn 2 and 3. We moved them to SR starbase, that was 2 hexes away from the WF deployment area, while capital SBs were 3 hexes away. But we considered distance from the area, not from the single ships. If we had considered distance from the single ship, placing the ships in deployment appropriately would have let us to send them to the capital instead. It would have been helpful, SR SB is 7 away from 10:13 where we wanted the upgraded ships, while capital is only 4 away...)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, August 02, 2021 - 01:29 pm: Edit

>>To bolster our Hidran first, in our last game we had 2 D6 of west fleet upgraded to a D6V and a D6D in turn 2 and 3.>>

I guess? Is this really that much of an improvement on just converting ships in the TBS (which are at a SB and released immediately) or the capital (which has plenty of SBs and plenty of D6s) or sending released D6s to the NR/SR SBs and doing the same thing? I mean I guess it isn't impossible that every single other SB and D6 were being converted already. But that seems like a lot.

By Charles W Popp (Captnchuck67) on Tuesday, August 10, 2021 - 09:44 am: Edit

It has been made clear that the Klingons can sell to the Wyn on turn #1 but can they make a deposit to the Wyn Bank on turn#1?
Same if the Lyrans do not invade the Kzinti on turn#1 can they sell and trade with the Wyn on turn#1

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, August 10, 2021 - 10:41 am: Edit

The Klingons cannot enter the WYN cluster except to give/sell a ship, to be interned, or to conduct trade if I recall correctly. So I think you can't enter just to add EPs to a WYNCOVIA account.

An Empire must be at war to conduct trade with tthe WYN. Assuming the Lyrans are on a wartime economy in a standard general war game, even though they don't attack the Kzintis (it's possible that they are required to attack but I don't know for sure), they'd be able to trade with the WYN normally.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, August 10, 2021 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Note that the WTN trade is sending EPs int he Cluster, doing trade and then depositing those EPs into the WYN Bank. The Klingon just need a new/activated ship converted to carry EPs and use Blockade Running (as that includes the return trip).

The Lyrans are not required to attack the Kzinti on turn 1 but ...

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 - 08:17 pm: Edit

>> would it take 20 points to kill 4 PDU's or 30 points

My understanding of how it works, using your 30 damage with 10 point mauler example (lets say a D6M):

5 points to kill PDU #1 using 1/2 of the maulers effect
5 points to kill PDU #2, using the other 1/2 of the maulers effect
10 points of regular directed damage to kill PDU #3
10 points of regular directed damage to kill PDU #4

And that's the 30 points of damage resolved to kill the maximum 4xPDUs that can be killed in a single round of combat. And the PDU fighters did not die so they'd need to be accounted for, possibly by transfer to other units, plus/minus points in a subsequent round, or simply dying if the Coalition chooses to retreat altogether after getting the 4xPDUs.

--Mike

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 - 09:20 pm: Edit

In Q+A, Bill wrote:
>>What I'm trying to find out is, using the above example of a battle force that includes a Mauler and does 30 damage points, would it take 20 points to kill 4 PDU's or 30 points? Thank you for your time.>>

It takes 10 direct damage to kill a PDU. If you have a mauler, this becomes 5 damage ('cause maulers are twice as effective in directed damage). A mauler can maul up to 10 points. Which is 2PDUs (2x5 damage).

If your force has a mauler does 10 damage, it can maul 2PDUs (5+5). If it does 20 damage, it can maul 3PDUs (5+5+10). If it does 30 damage, it can maul 4PDUs (5+5+10+10). That is all. As you can't direct more than 4PDUs in a single round of combat.

If you do 30 damage and direct kill 4PDUs, you then also have 24 (6+6+6+6) minus points to deal with on the next round, likely.

Summary: To kill the max of 4PDUs in one round with a mauler, you need to score at least 30 damage (5+5+10+10). If you do between 20 and 29 damage, you can kill 3PDUs (5+5+10). If you do between 10 and 19 damage, you can kill 2PDUs (5+5). If you have a mauler. Without a mauler, the first 2PDUs cost 10 each.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 - 10:28 pm: Edit

Ok. Thank you guys for your prompt replies. Looks like I misread rule 508.122, What about when you have a 7 point mauler, or a 12 point mauler? I am not trying to make waves, I'm just trying to understand this. A 7 point mauler would kill one PDU but that would leave 2 mauler points left over. Do you disregard them? Same with a 12 point STL mauler. it would account for 2 PDU's but there would still be two mauler points left over. In a situation where there are 2 mauler points left over would you subtract 2 damage points from a PDU and then use another 6 points of normal directed damage to finish of the PDU?

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 - 11:34 pm: Edit

The easiest way to calculate what you can kill with a mauler is this:

1) Confirm it's an eligible target for a mauler.
2) Calculate the damage required to direct it. (So, say you're trying to kill 3PDU. That's 30 damage).
3) Subtract the value of the mauler. (So, on those 3PDU a 7 point mauler needs 23 damage and a 12 point mauler needs 18)
4) Ensure that's not better than 1:1 (5 points for PDUs, 9 for SIDS).

The math is equivalent, it's just easier this way.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Wednesday, August 11, 2021 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Gotcha Sam. That makes sense.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 12, 2021 - 11:37 am: Edit

What Sam said.

If you have a single 7 point mauler attacking a planet, (assuming you do the damage you need to do), you can kill the first PDU for 5, the second for 8 (which is either 10, -2 points of mauling bonus=8; or 2 points of mauling counting as 4, +6=8. Either way is correct), and then 10 points each for PDUs 3 and 4 if you do that much damage.

The 12 point mauler works the same way. But better!

-First PDU: 5
-Second PDU: 5
-Third PDU: 8
-Fourth PDU: 10

So 18 kills 3PDUs, 28 kills 4PDU if you have a brave, short lived STL mauling PDUs.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 05:48 pm: Edit

My answer to the 413.41 (homeless ships in partial grid) question is yes. A partial grid can pay for supply for homeless ships. The empire in question must BOTH apply homeless support lines to the ships in question AND pay the 1EP per 5 ships.

Quite frankly, the whole question feels to me like Paul just hates the homeless ships rule and is keeps trying to narrow it. I'd just assume it means what it says.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 05:52 pm: Edit

Also for what it's worth, while it is certainly frustrating that this question has not been answered, I actually find the decision not to answer understandable as it seems to me that the rule is perfectly clear.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, August 30, 2021 - 07:35 am: Edit

Over in Q+A, I wrote:
>>There is a Klingon reserve fleet in hex 1013, that consists of a, FD7 (Fast) and 3D5 (non-Fast). This reserve force wants to go to Lyran SB 0411, which is 7 hexes away from 1013. There is a blocking force of 3 Hydran frigates (Command Rating 3 max) in hex 0513, which is the only legal path from hex 1013 to hex 0411 (LDR space is impassable).

1) Can any portion of the Klingon reserve force move?

2) Assuming it can, must it me the minimal force possible, as (203.7422) indicates that a moving reserve fleet must leave behind the minimal number of ships, which in this specific instance would be 1 ship (as the Command Rating difference between the Klingons and the Hydrans is big enough so that the Klingons could only leave behind 1 ship to resolve the pinning requirements)?>>

I think point 2 is correct. But if the 3 ships in 0513 consisted of a DG, 2HN instead of 3HN, the reserve would *not* be allowed to move, on the grounds that the DG has a command rating of 8, so to move through hex 0513, the reserve force would need to leave behind 3 ships (due to identical command ratings), and if the reserve force consisted of 4 total ships, it would not be allowed to move, as a moving reserve force can't leave behind more than half its ships (203.742).

This is indeed a convoluted rules interaction.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Monday, August 30, 2021 - 10:04 pm: Edit

I would have thought that if the ships cant make it to the final goal then they cant make any of the journey.

Only the Fast ships can try to go to 0411, but would have to stop in 0513 where their path is blocked. If there were sufficient Fast ships to leave behind enough SE to pin the blocking force in 0513 and satisfy (203.742) the rest could continue on to 0411.