Alan wrote:
>>Out of curiosity, did you consider killing the C8 with directed damage?>>

Nah. Too much damage; I don't know that there is much percentage in trying to run the Coalition out of heavy command ships; I mean, yeah, the Klingons don't have a ton of them, but they build them fast enough that I don't think killing a C8 instead of, like, forcing 3-6 other ships to self vaporize is going to be a good trade.

Graham spelled out the math pretty well; like, if there were a random DN hull on a line, and I scored 36 damage to vaporize it in a fight where I was going to direct something anyway, I'd certainly do that. But especially in this fight, where I wanted the Coalition to leave as soon as possible (so as to maximize my economy next turn), dropping damage seemed the best play. Especially when doing so was likely to result in ships being vaporized anyway :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Mike wrote:
>>The Capital assault is such a fascinating part of the game, with the multiple decisions available to the players and what each individual player believes the risks and benefits are.>>

It is interesting indeed. I understand why Jason did what he did with the EW situation (it was unlikely to make a significant difference, and I guess he didn't want to risk them getting killed, as, well, we both regularly blow up heavy scouts in scout bonus box); I might have tried at least to get 4EW on the first round (maybe a D5S in the box and an F5S in the BG?) just to see what happened, and if the Hydrans direct the scout, it saves the line a bunch of damage, and if the Hydran doesn't direct the scout, maybe go up to a D6S next time :-)

But that's me, and I completely understand why Jason played it the way he did there.

>>It is particularly interesting to see when the Alliance chooses to hunt Klingon command ships, potentially hoping to degrade their overall ability to field high CR fleets over time, or just drops damage and looks for maximum overall economic impact.>>

As noted above, this seems like a really tough thing to try and really benefit from; yeah, killing DNs is good when you can do it, but it seems like there are just gonna be too many to be able to keep ahead of them. Even from the Klingons. I kinda feel the same way about the maulers; like, if I can get a mauler kill in a fight that I was going to direct in anyway, or there are crippled ones in a pursuit, I'll kill a mauler. But generally speaking, I prefer to let them cripple themselves, and the Coalition just makes too many to keep ahead of.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 06:32 pm: Edit

I was taking a beating no matter what. And I have a heap of F5S to lose, and very few D6S to lose.

With 2xD6S in the fleet I want both for Pursuit to get 8 EW to minimise the number of crippled D6M and CC dying. I think that is more important than me doing 2.5% more damage by only having a 1 EW shift against me.

I could have had more CC and D7C on the line in the first few rounds but given the amount of damage Peter did in Round 1 that would have meant I was self killing CC rather than self killing D5. And my total damage may have been 4 or 5 more, meaning a few less Minus points in the 2nd round. It would not have materially changed the combat.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 06:58 pm: Edit

To a certain extent I think it depends on who you play with and what they think. For my old group, the focus was absolutely on killing C8s. The Klingons only start with 2, and build 1 per year. So if at the Hydran capital the Klingons put a C8 as flagship for round #1, and it gets directed, and another C8 as flagship for round #2 and it gets directed, you’ve basically cleaned out the theater of C8s. And the Klingons have little to show for it -- you’ve done what 8 (12 x 35% x 2 rounds) additional points of damage to the Hydrans? So you put a D7C as flagship and continue with a -12 COMPOT force. And the C8s are then not available elsewhere on later turns.

Now, if you potentially know this will happen, the Klingons just go in with a D7C force to assault the capital right off the bat and save the C8s. The C8s don’t even have to be in the capital hex and are free to more strongly lead other (safer) missions elsewhere in theater.

The other thing this leads to is, the more C8s you can save on the earlier turns, the more can then be converted to C8Vs later. This will absorb the one heavy carrier per turn limit, and you are left with that one C8 per year production, which can be then turned into another B10 dice roll. So you can then get more B10s earlier, which are much less vulnerable as a flagship than a C8 (54 dd kill vs 90 dd kill) and also gets you into the B10AA SFG shenanigans faster (if you choose to include that rule).

That’s the train of thought as least. YMMV. Not sure which is the ‘right’ way to do things and it’s not important to me to determine that. I certainly see the benefit of dropping damage on the Klingons. Different players and different games play out differently and that’s what makes it fun.

--Mike

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Wednesday, August 25, 2021 - 07:16 pm: Edit

The Lyrans can then take the lead and use BC with an Admiral. So its not all doom and gloom.

As an aside, I have decided not to go down the B-10 path and will be saving the Klingons some cash.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 03:27 am: Edit

As with anything - choices are good.

If the C8 was the 'only' CR10 Klingon hull in the hex and the Lyrans spent no Command Points (or to achieve a Lyran led Line uses a lot of low quality ships) - killing the C8 might make sense - but wasting 36 damage (if it's in form) is a lot of damage to throwaway.

If I felt I might hold onto a key hex IF the enemy line drops from CR10 to CR9 (or lower even), it perhaps does become a better choice - but the Coalition have far to many CR10 hulls to realistically put a crimp on them.

(A C8 on the line (as Lyran DN's are always on the line), killable for a net 18 wasted damage (i.e. 36) might be an easier choice, as I agree with Mike - killing Klingon command hulls is always good!)

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 06:27 am: Edit

I'd have certainly put more CCs/BCs/D7Cs on the line (and a D5S or D6S as a scout). In this case it would have saved on some destroyed hulls. Generally I make sure to bring enough heavy ships for the first round to soak damage if I must (to avoid self killing ships). I feel it's generally better over a high compot target to send 3CC/BC/D7C+2D5/CW over a battle group (can absorb 41-44 damage over 39 damage) and a CWS/D5S can absorb a couple more damage (or even a D6S). I usually try to have some Lyran DNs even (though this is a personal choice).

YMMV, but even in high damage output situations I tend to be able to avoid mass self-kills.


***

Alternatively, if I have the EW assets, I might use a lot of D6S/D6Ds on the line (and lead the force with aa TGA(BP DP) and try to win the EW war. -2.5% (or -5%) off 120ish damage can save a cruiser or two.

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 06:47 am: Edit

Richard, I took 124 damage on the first turn. If I put D5S, CC, D7C, BC on the line they would have been dying instead of D5 and F5.

And I would still have only mauled 4 PDU (but had 4 or 5 Minus points instead of 15 points).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 08:04 am: Edit

CT5

The turn is over!

On the Kzinti front, the Coalition captured planet 1502, recaptured planets 1105 and 1202, kiled BATS 1805, locked down most of Kzinti space, and raided 1401 to devastate Kuballis (the last undevastated minor) and redevastate a few other planets, resetting the recovery clock.

In Hydran space, the Coalition killed BATS 0315, executed the last HN from the failed Expeditionary force (3 survivors made it back to the Capital), and stripped all 13PDUs off of the homeworld, and then blew up 2PDUs on one of the outer system minors on the way out of the hex. (In the pursuit, the Hydrans killed a crippled D6M, taking zero damage in return; they had an 83 some odd point pursuit force, but in the face of -4 damage and a -2EW shift from the two, unkilled D6S's in the hex, the Hydrans only scored 11 total damage).

Ships Killed:
-ZIN: FKE, 3FF
-HYD: HN

-LYR:
-KLI: D7, 8D5, F5L, F5E, 7F5, 2E4, (D6M)

Man. The Klingons really got kicked in the teeth, losing a full turn's worth of production. But at least that is a lot of salvage.

On the Kzinti front, the Coalition have a lot of province raiders in Kzinti space, a giant fleet in 1406 (protecting FRDs and the new Lyran SB), a modest reserve at BATS 0906, two modest reserves at SB 1407, and another modest reserve at SB 0404 (all four of these reserves are in the 4-6 ship range, and none of them real impressive, but they can dissuade small attacks of opportunity at BATS or whatever).

On the Hydran front, the Coalition mostly pulled back to their hard points--there are about 45 ships at Lyran SB 0411 (including a 10 ship reserve and 16 repair worth of cripples); about 100 ships and then another 31 cripples in staging area 0815 (there is a total of 107 points of repair to do, and 48 points of repair capacity in the hex, so less than half of those ships will be back in action next turn); another fleet of 18 ships and 10 more cripples at 1013 (with another couple FRDs), and then another pair of small (4-6 ship) reserves on top of that.

Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD4CT5end.html

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 08:09 am: Edit

Richard wrote:
>>YMMV, but even in high damage output situations I tend to be able to avoid mass self-kills.>>

In games that you are playing in, you can do anything you want to do. And that's great. But this game is moving in the direction it is moving in, and let's try to stop putting so much effort into second guessing what the players in *this* game are doing, yeah? Thanks!

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 08:39 am: Edit

I think the other thing to consider is that if I had a line of:
C8(adm), D6M, 2xBC, 3xCC, 3xD7C, 3xD5, D5S(scout)

I would have crippled all of my big ships on the first turn.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 09:06 am: Edit

I'm just joining the tactical discussion, no need to let your personal dislike of me color your comments.

***

Jason, I think that if you had replaced (say) D5 3F5 F5S with the four ships you listed, you'd still have had two D5s to take kills on (8 damage) and the bigger ships would have let you take more damage crippling ships and less on destroying ships.

But if you feel otherwise, well, you'll see how it goes.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 09:49 am: Edit

Richard, you are doing the *exact same thing* that you castigate Paul for *all the time*.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 10:49 am: Edit

I am going to have to respectfully disagree. If you care to continue *that* conversation, feel free to email me.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 26, 2021 - 10:51 am: Edit

AT5

In the raid phase, the Alliance successfully raided 3 Lyran and 1 Klingon provinces, brutalizing a few POLs.

Moves are well underway. In Kzinti space, again, the Kzinti are mostly rounding up province garrison and minor occupation forces. Most of the Coalition ships are in/around 1406, so it is easy to engage ships. There are 3 small reserves in the area, which means that the Kzinti are mostly overkilling most attacks. And the three small reserves are making it unlikely that the Kzinti can successfully attack any vaguely vulnerable BATS in the area (0502, 0705, 0906, 1107 are all possible targets, but too easily defended against the dubious forces that could get there). The Kzinti could also theoretically hit KLI SB 1509, but between two dozen ships in 1407 and the reserves, that would be foolish.

In Hydran space, the Hydrans have sent the whole 2nd Fleet (44 SEQ) from 0215 to LYR SB 0411, almost pinning everything there, but not quite.

Plenty left to move.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 08:37 am: Edit

AT5

Moves are done, reserves have been deployed.

In Kznti space, 6 battle hexes. In 5 of them, the Kzinti are overpowering a small pile of province/planet garrisons, will kill something small, and the Coalition will retreat. In hex 1505, a solid battle line engaged some raiders in range of reaction forces, and the Coalition jumped on them, and then some reserves showed up, so likely both sides will lose a ship and the Kzinti will give up the hex.

In Hydran space, 3 battle hexes. The Hydrans managed to pin all the ships at SB 0411 (primarily due to the arrival of a couple fast LGEs from the capital (exactly 7 hexes away), allowing a scratch force of garbage to attack and probably kill Lyran BATS 0212 (which is undefended). There is also a solid line beating up some province raiders on the East edge of Hydran space.

No real dramatic fights. Just more attrition of small Coalition hulls.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 10:10 am: Edit

AT5

Combat, and the turn, is over!

In Kzinti space, the Kzinti liberated planets 1105, 1202, 1502; opened up space, killed a bunch of little Klingon ships.

In Hydran space, the Hydrans successfully killed LYR BATS 0212 (getting a couple HN crippled for their trouble), killed a province raider, avoided fighting over SB 0411 (the Lyrans declined the approach), and captured a Lyran province.

Ships Killed:
-ZIN: FF
-HYD:

-LYR: FF
-KLI: F5, 5E4

At the end of the turn, the Kzinti have about 80 ships in the capital, about 35 ships at SB 1704 (including a 9 ship reserve), another 9 ship reserve off map, and a few ships at planet 1001.

The Hydrans have about 60 ships at the capital, about 30 ships at SB 0215, a few ships in the back field, and 2 small reserves (7 ships, 4 ships) off map.

Map:
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/SCD4AT5end.html

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Saturday, August 28, 2021 - 11:27 pm: Edit

T6C has begun. The Coalition repaired a LOT of ships, but still have a heap more to repair. And I dare say after hitting 0617 again will still be struggling to get repairs done.

Though there are Tugs setting up as supply points in 1406 where there are many FRD not really being used, and in 0815 where there is high demand. Possibly things are afoot. Or maybe the Coalition just have a glut of Tugs.

Lyrans and Klingons probably constructed things you would assume. Lyrans got a VP pod and made some CWE and DWE, as well as their DN and a Mauler or 2 and a scout and a couple of other things. They have a heap of money saved up so still have the ability to overbuild CW or FF if things go badly.

Klingons built a C8, Maulers (1 converted), Scouts, a D5V, a bunch of AD5 and F5E, converted a couple of D6 to D6D and some F5S (I seem to be addicted to converting these, though they havent had a huge amount of use yet...). The Klingons also have a fair bit of cash saved up so could also overbuild if needed. But probably need to save it for repairs. I did mention that 0617 will get bloody again.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 05:52 am: Edit

The LGE ...
One of the few 'really cool' units the Alliance have.

"primarily due to the arrival of a couple fast LGEs from the capital (exactly 7 hexes away"

Might not seem much 2 LGE's - but 6 equivalents can make a big difference

Was there any crippled Lyran stuff at 212 awaiting repair?

By Jason Langdon (Jaspar) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 07:17 am: Edit

Nothing at 0212. It was all bare and ripe for the wrecking.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 08:29 am: Edit

Yeah, Jason clearly left 0212 to perish. Which took a lot of effort on the part of the Hydrans, and completely distracted them from trying to attack the FRD park in 0815 (which may or may not have been even possible, but as I was trying to get the BATS, I didn't even bother counting). So if the Lyran's plan was "You! BATS commander! Don't worry *at all* about that Hydran fleet over there. You'll be fine without any defense ships!", it totally worked :-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 08:51 am: Edit

CT6

Lyrans start the turn with about 153 EPs. They build DN, TGC, STJ, 2CWE, CW, 2DWE, DWS, 3FF, VP+; convert CL>BC, CW>CWE, DW>DWE; spend 31 EP on repairs. End econ with about 35 EPs in treasury.

Klingons start the turn with about 231 (?!?) EPs (they got 20 EPs from the Lyrans and then 24 EPs from salvage last turn). The build C8, D6M, TGA, D5V, D5S, 3AD5, 4D5, 4F5E, 5E4, FRD; activate 2D6, 2F5, E4, 2E3 (this may or may not be a good idea); convert D6>D6M, D6>D6S, 2D6>D6D, 2F5>F5S. Spend 20 EPs on repairs. End econ with about 61 EPs in treasury.

It looks like the Coalition still have 21 crippled hulls on the map, as of the end of the econ phase on T6.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 10:53 am: Edit

Peter

I thought it would have been more like

212 BATS commander calls the SB 'Hello, this the commander of Sector 212, just waiting for confirmation on....'

413 SB 'Thank you for calling Help Line, please press 1 to hear these options again, press 2 for the Media office, press 3 for UBER Food Deliveries, press 4 for the Re-supply division. Should you be expecting to be defended, please enter the four digit security number you require..... you have 5 seconds to respond.....Five …. four'

212 - 'First Officer - whats our access code number ?????'

413 'Two.... One....thank you for your call CLICK'....

212 'Hello, is it 4376 - I think it was my mother in laws date of birth doubled????? ….hello ...….Hello is there anyone there?'

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 12:09 pm: Edit

It also turned out that Jason probably could have saved the BATS if he was inclined, but involved complicated rules questions, and things that are not necessarily clear.

He had a reserve with a Lyran CF in it at SB 0404. He had a reserve with a Klingon FD7 in 1013.

I put 3 ships into 0513 to possibly block the FD7 from getting to 0404 (but couldn't do anything about the CF in 0404). If both the CF and FD7 made it to 0411, that would have freed up a single ship from one of the reserves in 0411, which could have potentially saved BATS 0212 (or, possibly, just gotten it killed). And required discovering if a reserve fleet with 1 fast ship and a few non fast ships could move towards a legal destination hex that most of the reserve fleet couldn't get to (as it was 7 hexes away), leave the non fast units behind in the hex with the ships in the way, allowing the F ship to make it there. And in looking it up, it seems possible, but still a little unclear on what happens.

But in any case, either Jason didn't notice this (admittedly very convoluted) possibility, or did, and just didn't worry about it.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 01:36 pm: Edit

That's an easy one I think!

If the legal hex was 6 hexes away and blocking hex was 5 hexes away - the whole fleet could be to clear a path through and 50% + Eq's get to the target hex ...

but I can't see an enabling rule to allow a blocking hex 6 hexes away to be pinned by the normal ships.... to allow the fast ships to the target hex, 7 hexes away - as the normal ships can't reach the target hex - which is the primary requirement and so they can't move.