Yeah, I mean, they certainly are similar to other GW games that got this far and posted one. The high Romulan number was me forgetting to subtract the Romulan mothball ships. So the Rom (and Coalition) should be about 20 SEQ lower than those totals.

I'll put one up after AT12. Right now it's kind of a mess, midcombat...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, July 08, 2021 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Nothing complex right now, but my son is at home thinking about F&E while I am at the office, and I got a text to the effect that the Feds don't have enough fleet markers to satisfy his operational movement plans.

So there's that.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, July 08, 2021 - 11:09 pm: Edit

Multipost

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, July 08, 2021 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Stewart:

They weren't. 7 built at the shipyard on map, and the FCR off map.

[The transports off map were driven there last turn.]

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, July 12, 2021 - 12:38 pm: Edit

So, some more thoughts and recap.

The Coalition is running out of targets that meet the minimum requirements for attack:

1. Won't be pinned out of them;
2. Will actually benefit the war effort to attack (inner ring Fed Starbases need not apply, mostly);
3. Are within 6 of things that have to be defended (the chain of planets between 2106 and the 3000 row in Northern Fed space in particular - even having moved the fleet to 2505 from 2306 there are a number of "out of range" targets.

In particular in Hydran space the Coalition will have 125-150 SEQ chasing thirteen Hydrans stuck out of supply just because they don't have much else to do. The outer planets are devastated in the Hydran Capital and the Hydrans have enough ships that trying the shipyard looks prohibitive; the Coalition could try, fail, and lose the two Hydran - space Starbases for cheap along with associated auxiliaries as a result.

The Romulans have the Gorns to play with (and they will), but the most important thing going on in Federation space right now is a game of patty-cake over whether or not supply remains open to the Orion sector and the Coalition watches to see when or if the Feds try to hold, rather than simply reopen, supply to the off map. Given that the Feds have tugs (and convoys), they can (maybe) happily just kill a bunch of frigates every turn rather than fighting the Coalition for the supply route on Coalition turns.

The Lyrans have a terrifying fleet sitting around getting outflanked by the Kzinti in 1401, but they don't actually have a better plan, because the only thing worse than having a terrifying fleet getting outflanked by the Kzinti in 1401 would be overstretching and getting pinned out of 1401.

So I think that despite a serious EW and pincount advantage, the Coalition is mostly waiting for the Romulans to win, or for the Federation to pull the trigger and go help the Gorns, allowing the Klingons back into the pincount lead on the Fed/Klingon front (where right now there is rough parity but a practical Federation advantage because the Klingons have a lot of ships committed to garrison duty.)

In the long run, I still think the Coalition is doing well. They even have a knockout plan, of taking the Gorn Capital and then pulling off the Federation front and biting the bullet over Hydrax. But the Federation can kind of do whatever they want; they just probably have to be aggressive now because if they hang out in the Capital it will eventually maybe be the only Alliance capital standing.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, July 12, 2021 - 05:03 pm: Edit

>> inner ring Fed Starbases need not apply, mostly

Would it make sense to consolidate the Federation front somewhat, and make a plan to destroy one of the 3 inner SBs? The Coalition needs to knock one down to open the door to the Fed Capital. And once that door is open, even if the Coalition can't and/or doesn't try to take Earth, there are lots of yummy planets to devastate (similar to the Hydran situation). And devastating Fed capital hex planets effectively reduces their ability to build more ships, over time, so the net effect is similar to fighting them and destroying their ships in combat.

And that kind of threat will certainly keep much of the Fed fleet protecting their own territory -- allowing the Romulans to more successfully attack the Gorns.

Great game, thanks again for posting!

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, July 12, 2021 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Well, I mean, the problem with devastating Federation capital planets has nothing to do with their starbases. It has to do with the fact that they apparently have a 3D printer for frigates that just goes BrrrrrrrrT. And therefore "getting into the capital" requires not Compot, or winning fights, but another 50 frigates of my own (presumably Romulans, or Klingons from the Hydran front) to prevent being pinned out.

I could blow up all of those Starbases for free and I would be no closer to devastating Vulcan; all he has to do is jump on me when I get one hex away via reaction, fight a round with CVA+CVB+frigates, give up the requisite FF (which, as we've discussed, breed like rabbits), and retreat back into the capital. Having Starbases is pretty, but doesn't even help him do this except insofar as it gives him a couple of SEQ.

If I had a chance to kill something, I wouldn't bother with the outer Starbases, I'd go straight in an devastate the planets. But he'd be happy to let me cripple ships SIDSing a starbase, take his 9 ship kills + cripples advantage, and then come kill me on the Alliance turn and demolish my supply train/forward repair facilities.

I have been successful in making him retreat to the Capital (75% of the Federation Fleet is in Hex 2908.) But once done, he can attack anything he wants within 6 (7! He has a bunch of fast ships) of 2908. Forever. And I can't pin him out of anything. Ever.

[I can fight him; he can't take the Klingons on straight up, especially not with the B10. But the Klingons are outnumbered as a practical matter, as stated.]

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 04:40 pm: Edit

I suppose the question is how comes so many Romulans got into the Gorn Capitals?

Having all the Gorn ships in just the main capital is probably a mistake - 10 Gorn ships in each of the other 2 capital hexes makes them far more difficult to capture - and the extra hulls in the capital will not make much difference (the Romulans don't have enough to capture it).

Could the Feds on A13 have positioned a reserve to help cover the Gorn Capitals and NE Fed Space?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, July 17, 2021 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Romulans have been moving north as far as they can at every opportunity and only retrograding cripples, and they set up an MB on CT13 in Gorn territory which is the forward base now. They put a lot of effort into this, and have less than 20 SEQ in Federation space.

The Feds have (so far) let the Gorns twist. They would have been better off with a reserve on SB 3604, and the Gorns probably would have been better off with ships in the off-shipyard capital hexes. Once they retreated to the Capital, the Romulan pinned them from the 43-row before entering the secondary capital hexes to avoid reaction out. That possibility may have been missed.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, July 18, 2021 - 05:30 am: Edit

Perhaps this is why the Romulan Northern Fleet isn't released if the Romulans attack the Gorns?

(IIRC - you along with some other games have released the Romulan Northern Fleet if the Romulans attack the Gorn first, on turn 13).

From 603.2 - if the Gorn haven't attacked the Romulans - I don't think the Northern Fleet is released until turn 20?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, July 18, 2021 - 04:04 pm: Edit

I am guessing one of the major advantages of the Gorn was forgotten about, assuming the battle order was 4403, 4402, 4503?

The Gorn's in 4402 could do partial retreat to 4504 - prior to that battle occurring (and hence why defending all 3 hexes is vital - you can retreat from once Capital hex into another)?

Persuising rather than retreating at the end of the battle was probably a major error by the Gorns though.

Allowing the Romualns to have the Northern Fleet AND messing up with the Gorn defence isn't good for the game

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, July 18, 2021 - 04:32 pm: Edit

4402 went last, technically. I think the Gorns could have retreated into 4503 anyway (in response to the big Romulan Fleet's retreat to 4403), but they preferred to take the opportunity to pursue instead.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, July 18, 2021 - 06:11 pm: Edit

[After the order was defined, Trent asked if we could take 4402 out of order because he was curious about the result. I said okay, hence its position on the spreadsheet.]

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, July 19, 2021 - 07:43 am: Edit

I assume your playing with 'everything' can be down subbed to a FF?


With 104.625 EPs available in the Capital grid, the Federation builds 30 FF's, converts 2 CL to 2 LSC, and performs 6.5 EP of repairs. The on map grid has .125 EP in remaining treasury. Meanwhile, in the offmap main grid, they have 40.5 EP available (after rolling 163+40=203 survey), and perform 6 EP of repairs at the off map Starbase, also building an FCR and converting 3xNCL to 3xNEC at that Starbase. They maintain a stockpile of 17 excess EP's.


Can the Feds SM ships into Gorn Space - i.e. - what is covering NE Fed Space and NW Gorn Space?

2 Reserves with say a CA's and 8 FF's would make a huge difference to the Gorns….

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, July 19, 2021 - 08:00 am: Edit

Reminder

If the Feds can't spare any reserve fleet counters - they can hep bolster the Gorn ones.

A CR9 or CR10 ship, with 5 Gorn ships can have 5 Federation ships in it (50%+ Minimum required... so 6 Gorn of 11 (1 may need to be a Scout with CR9) is legal).

The Feds should have sent them last turn....

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, July 19, 2021 - 11:17 am: Edit

I agree the Feds should have sent them last turn, but they seem to be alive to the problem now. They have about 30 ships headed that way even before SM (the SM grid is indeed connected), albeit mostly FF's.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, July 19, 2021 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Wow, what an interesting turn of events.

I didn't realize how all in the Feds were on loading the capital with ships -- so you were so very solidly pinned out of doing absolutely anything near there. 3d printer indeed! BrrrrrrrrT.

I wonder if the Fed support can stabilize the Gorn front?

Or if the transferred Fed ships change the pin situation near the capital and create an opening for a further Klingon advance?

Will the Hydran's accumulate enough of a fleet to take back some of their territory?

Could the Kzinti send some of their ships to directly help the Feds or Gorns?

Will the Coalition bite the bullet and engage in an expensive Hydran capital assault?

Only time will tell.

>> (Trent woke up early and started doing econs on Sunday morning. Go figure.)

Best update of the lot. It's so wonderful to see you playing with your son and him being engaged. I hope you are making memories that will last a long time.

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, July 19, 2021 - 02:51 pm: Edit

The Klingons have been pinned out for a couple of turns and have no prospects of getting in soon; the Federation is making 30 ships a turn (against 22 for the Klingons, some of which have to go to the Hydran Front), so they can actually send several ships to the Gorns without any possibility of the Feds losing pincount fights in the interior of Federation space.

The Kzinti can't really help; they are doing yeoman's service keeping the Lyran fleet in their space (the Lyran fleet has a bunch of DN and BC's that would probably be useful elsewhere if they weren't stuck keeping the Kzinti out of 1401.)

The Coalition is still ahead on the Hydran Front; the Klingons alone have almost as many ships as the Hydrans, and the Lyrans have 50 pretty good SEQ. It's not impossible that the Coalition could take 617, but they are probably a little light to try it and - more relevantly - the Hydrans can bleed fighters forever and put up a 160 point battle line in addition to whatever the fixed defenses are. So trying to kill PDUs and SIDS down a starbase could result in the Coalition losing their two beautiful starbases in that sector. Because the Hydrans probably don't take a cripple until the shipyard SB falls. At all. They have that many fighters and the ability to put ~50 of them on the line at once, without even trying very hard.

[On CT13, I went in with every intention of fighting over the shipyard, and noped out after the minor planet after seeing how it would be.]

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, July 19, 2021 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Two things

1) Although the Feds are building more - there is no quality there - you can delay the enemy with numbers....but not win battles.

2) What defences does Hydrax have?

160 compot 'battle line' doesn't seem that high for the Hydrans - how many Pal's, LGE's and Battle Tugs do they still have?

They might abit more....

But a SB, say 8 PDU's and 160 compot line will probably need 50%+ in ships to take it - assuming the Hydrans don't self cripple everything to win the hex.....

...and having to SID the SB will be painful!


They mighr

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, July 20, 2021 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Feds have several CVAs now, so they can put up decent lines with just FF's showing. E.g. [CVA+NEC+DE+DE+FF] + [CVB+NEC+DE+FF] + 2xFF type of thing. However, I've shown a willingness, even a determination, to shoot down anything with the temerity to occupy a scout box, so EW is an issue if the Alliance wants to avoid getting hurt by directed damage.

Hydrax has 18 PDU and a starbase, and maybe a mobile base besides? I don't think he had the EPs to make another BATS or Starbase.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, August 01, 2021 - 11:58 am: Edit

Game is going too quick to keep up

"4402: 128 Romulans (and 91 fighters) against every Gorn on the map and 28 Federation FF's which have come to the rescue. "

Probably a major error by you son - the FF's will help, but you need battle line hulls to keep a high compot line to try to outlast the Romulans and FF's just don't really help enough.

Say a DN, 6 x NCL and 20 x FF's would have been a far better force to send.... or even a CVA group and some FCR's a better force.

i.e. 3 x NCL and 3 x FF's form a modest compot battle group - 6 x FF's doesn't.

The error in not garrison the other capital hexes last turn has been unfortunately massively compounded and so will the Gorn Capital (Shipyard) hex fall?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, August 01, 2021 - 02:13 pm: Edit

I mostly agree with all that. Unfortunately, Capital Hex battles don't happen often enough for us to have thought them out extensively. Given how hard I committed, I think probably the Gorn Capital was [mostly] doomed, but this will make it faster and less painful.

That said, he has plenty of decent Gorn battlegroup ships to put up with the FF's, so the lack of NCL's isn't a tremendous deal. It isn't like I'm going to be shooting HD's and BD's on the line.

It's also worth noting that I made a major unforced error as well, leaving 24 SEQ 7 hexes from 4402 last turn when they could have been forward (Strategic moving reserves that ended up being too far from anything to fight; Trent wisely didn't give them an opportunity to move by reserve movement into Gorn space). This includes a bunch of heavy escorts, scouts and cruisers which would have been really good to have around.

The Federation is actually recapturing Southern Fed space; they have enough ships there to outnumber the remaining Romulans now and on AT15 will probably get to recapture most of their space (less any hexes protected by reserves) if they want.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, August 01, 2021 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Gorn have lots of big ships and lots of small ships - but very few HD's (CW's) - i.e. they lack the CW hulls to use Battlegroups well.

As the Coalition - I would always be happy to temporarily allow the Feds to recapture their home space.. if I can capture a Capital Hex (or Hexes) on the cheap.

Those heavy Fed hulls should have been in Gorn space last turn

Even a single line of ships in each hex, would have made those 2 Gorn other Capital hexes far more difficult to capture.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, August 01, 2021 - 05:22 pm: Edit

>> Even a single line of ships in each hex, would have made those 2 Gorn other Capital hexes far more difficult to capture.

Yes, yes, even an average quality 10 ship Fed fleet sent to each capital hex would return a lot more EPs in Alliance damage dealt than Alliance damage received. Even if those 10 ship fleets are ultimately completely destroyed, it's still a good exchange for the Alliance, both economically and in terms of contributing to the Romulan repair backlog (which slows the Coalition down).

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, August 29, 2021 - 09:46 am: Edit

Hi Graham

Couple of questions

4402 1 Coalition 8 105 3 0 7 2 30.00% 31.5 Maul DNT
(Shipyard) Alliance 4 153 -1 4 6 37.50% 57.375 Direct KRM Cripple 3xSKE,BHE, 18 fighters, K7R (-4)

4 Coalition (38) 8 96 1 -2 3 5 27.50% 26.4 Maul(7) SIDS(11) Cripple BC, BD
Alliance 4 156 -1 4 2 17.50% 27.3 Maul SPF (12) 5 Fighters, Cripple 2xWE (-5) (MCM No Shock)

9 Coalition (7) 10 87 1 1 6 3 30.00% 26.1 SIDS (18) 6 Starbase fighters, Cripple FF (-3)
Alliance 2 165 -2 4 3 25.00% 41.25 Maul FHC (29) Fighter, Cripple 2xSP (-6)

11 (Pursuit) Coalition 7 63 1 -1 4 6 32.50% 20.475 N
Alliance 0 66 -2 4 1 15.00% 9.9 Maul FAL,KRM

Most of the lines seem to have the Alliance with a -1 or -2 on EW - what Scouts did both sides have?

Over an Alliance SB - that doesn't seem like the Alliance had any 4 pt Scouts (and the Romulans don't have many 4 pt Scouts at all!)?

So compbat rounds :-

First round over the SB - both Compots seems very low, what Command Points was used?

On round 4 - the VBIR dropped it to 3 and the Coalition didn't select BIR 3 or 4 - so they would not have been able to Maul?

On round 6 also - I assume the 18 Mauled Romulan fighters were the last fighters the Rom's had - didn't seem to drop the Romulan compot by much and so why?

On round 9 - why was only a Alliance FF crippled?

A bigger cripple would have reduced the chance of the crippled SB being direct crippled

On the pursuit round - what was the Romulans pursued line - as -2 on the Alliance with only 3 uncrippled ships AND 63 compot, seems very high?

i.e. 8 x crippled at say average 4 Compot is 32, CON is 14 and 2 EW hulls is 9 compot (assuming 2 x FHC's) - which is only 55 and 5EW.

(A 5 pt additional crippled ship if there is an ADM there is still only 60).

So what Scouts was left on both sides?

On the battle - looks like the Coalition certainly got some lucky rolls - and the Alliance never allowed the Auto kill rule to apply?

(Round 2 over the Shipyard for example - and they Mauled a K7R - that to me seems a mistake - killing a CC hull is OK, but wasting an Auto kill)

It would help - what Scouts and Maulers did both sides also start with?

Thanks