Archive through September 08, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through September 08, 2021
However we resolve this issue, the same solution must also apply to aux carriers and PFTs mixed into a reserve fleet.
Chuck, Auxiliaries are already covered under (549.22) with regards to both maximum range and enemy units along the path to the original target hex of the reserve fleet.
Quote:(549.22) RESERVE MOVEMENT: Auxiliaries can use reserve movement [no more than three hexes; see (513.131)]. There is, however, a complicating factor. A moving reserve fleet must create the minimum number of battle hexes. If the auxiliaries cannot reach the target or an intervening hex where pinning must be resolved, they must be left behind in the starting hex. As the minimum number of ships must be left behind in an intervening hex to resolve pinning, a fleet including several auxiliaries could take enough to resolve that pin situation (and keep the reserve fleet moving) but could not take extra auxiliaries to leave behind in a newly created battle hex.
EXAMPLE: A reserve fleet includes six ships and four auxiliaries, and the intervening blocking force is two frigates. The reserve fleet could take along two of the auxiliaries if those auxiliaries had fighters/PFs that could resolve the pinning (since auxiliaries cannot un-pin a fleet). They could not take the other two auxiliaries along in order to give the frigates a tougher fight.
Presumably a fleet of Fast and/or X-Ships mixed with standard ships would follow the above rule regarding auxiliaries. The difference being that Fast and X-Ships have a range of 7 hexes as opposed to 6 for standard ships and 3 for qualifying Auxiliaries.
Hmm. Yeah, ok, so it seems like there is an existing answer to this rule question, but it is in the Aux rules (and not the Fast Ship rules), and it is indeed very complicated:
You can move slow/er ships with fast ships in the same reserve force, towards a legal destination hex, that is 7 hexes away, even though some of the ships in the reserve force can't move 7 hexes, as long as there are opposition blocking forces in the way, that the reserve force must move through to get to the legal destination hex, but then can only take enough of the slow/er ships to resolve the pin action in the intervening hex, and then only enough to satisfy the pinning requirements, including the command rating differential, and the requirement that a moving reserve force isn't allowed to leave more than half of the original number of moving units behind to resolve pinning.
I *think* that is essentially what is happening in these situations, and covering all possibly contingencies?
(Wouldn't it just be easier to say "slow/er ships in a reserve force can't move with that reserve force if the legal destination hex is further away than the slow/er ship's maximum movement" and just call it a day? :-)
That's a weird example in the rule - there's no situation where the reserve could have six ships and four auxiliaries and not have the CR to use the command exception to only leave one ship in the intervening hex against a pair of frigates.
Peter, auxiliaries have been allowed to be in Reserve Fleets since their inception back in Carrier War. What you are asking would be to essentially eliminate a rule that has been in place since the 90s.
>> Wouldn't it just be easier to say...
My sense is Peter is just poking a little fun at a complicated rule. To me, it does make sense as one carefully reads through the text, and at the same time my head explodes a little bit...
--Mike
Sam
I hear what your saying - but its possible the example is wrong - but there is a convoluted way of achieving it!
Example - a Klingon FX and F5 are a pair of frigates - and the FX has CR of 7.
A CR 7 ship leading a Battlegroup of 6 ships, plus two ships and a Scout would get to 10 Ships in the Reserve..
i.e.
Flag (Free)
Scout (Free)
Battlgroup Extra Ship (Free)
Command Rating number of ships 7
10 Ships (or 6 Ships and 4 Aux's) is therefore possible.
But on the general question - I stand corrected - I didn't think it was possible on the Fast/Normal ships - with normal ships being used to pin, even though they can't reach the Target hex 
Mike wrote:
>>My sense is Peter is just poking a little fun at a complicated rule. To me, it does make sense as one carefully reads through the text, and at the same time my head explodes a little bit...>>
On the one hand, yes, I am kind of kidding. On the other hand, this seems like one of the most preposterous and convoluted rule interactions I have run into in the last decade of playing this game. And just saying "You can't move slow/er ships in a reserve force to a legal destination hex that is further away than the slow/er ship's maximum move" seems like a *way* more reasonable, and non convoluted solution to this particular situation.
You could still mix regular ships and Auxiliaries in the same reserve force, but if the legal destination hex was more than 3 hexes away? You just have to leave the Auxiliaries at home. You could still have a reserve force that consisted of 3 X-Ships, 2 Fast ships, 3 regular ships, and 2 Aux ships, and if the legal destination hex was 3 hexes away, you could move everyone; if the legal destination hex was 6 hexes away, you would have to leave the Auxes behind (regardless of what was in the intervening hexes); if the legal destination hex was 7 hexes away, you could only move the X and Fast ships, and the rest would have to be left behind.
This seems like *way* more of a reasonable, and easily understood, rule than we currently have.
I mean, honestly. Read the complicated "here's all the restrictions on this move" paragraph I posted above, and tell me that isn't a completely insane chain of rules to have to figure out.
You need to be careful about changing existing rules, so I'm not advocating a change here, but: Imagine a situation with a blocking force three hexes away and the target hex 6 hexes away and a reserve mixing normal warships and auxes.
The reserve starts moving, what speed is it moving at? If it moves at the speed of the auxes, then the normal warships have no movement left when they reach the blocking force. If it moves that the speed of the normal warships, then the auxes are left behind and can't open the way for the normal warships.
The reserve force has to move together for the slower ships to unblock the faster ships, but if the faster ships are slowing down to the slower ships' speed, then how do they reach the destination that needs their full move?
The rule WORKS as a rule, but it is more complicated than Peter's alternative and Peter's alternative makes far more sense to me as trying to model an actual military situation. If it takes a max-speed run to get a reserve to a battle, then the reserve can't be slowing down to take slower ships with it to engage blocking forces.
Two things
Slower ships do not slow down 'faster ships'** (with two exceptions - one of which is relevant) - as everything is moved in 'pulses' (I couldn't actually see a definition!).
Aux Ships moves in pulses 1 to 3
Normal Ships moves in pulses 1 to 6
Fast and X-Ships moves in pulses 1 to 7
Fed XTP thing moves in pulses 1 to 8
An Aux ship doesn't burn up '2 pulses' of normal movement for every hex that it does and 203.46 confirms this.
The only things which DOES burn up 2 pulses of movement are towing FRD's and Cloaked Movement.
(A Stack can't tow a FRD (as the FRD can't cloak IIRC) and be Cloaked)
549.22 infers slower stuff can move with faster stuff and as long as all the rules are followed - it seems legal.
The valid follow on question though would be if route A said required 3 pin equivalents - which could be covered by the 'slow forces' and route B required 2 pin equivalents but required just 'fast forces' (and the balance of the fast forces would still get to the target hex)?
from 203.741, I think the slower ships would be detached prior to moving and the lower number of ships being pinned is then covered?
Movement is really abstracted. What is happening in 'reality' is not at all the same as what is represented in F&E, so the speed three/speed six thing doesn't really happen that way.
It's like how we move one stack at a time. In reality, ships might be ALL moving simultaneously during the six month turn, or not, or at different times. One shouldn't get to obsessed with how things are really working based on the F&E rules.
Interesting analysis. The rule as written today (which I am not advocating to change) appears to envision a situation whereby the slower ships somehow manage to race out in front of much faster ships to clear a path for them.
>> If it takes a max-speed run to get a reserve to a battle
Yes, that makes sense to me. It appears that the speed 7 ships would need to immediately accelerate to maximum speed and maintain that speed continuously in order to reach the hex 7 hexes away just in time to join the combat there.
--Mike
>> Movement is really abstracted.
Excellent point. That's not the only thing that is abstracted in the game. For example, the entire turn system itself is just a structure put in place to manage the game. IRL, the non-phasing player wouldn't necessarily have to wait patiently for the enemy to finish all their moves before doing anything -- they could launch a simultaneous counterattack.
I'm not advocating for any change. It's just interesting to consider how the abstractions give the game structure and flavor.
--Mike
I'm not remotely concerned with whether or not something is "realistic" or not. What I am concerned with is that the answer to a rules question is:
"You can move slow/er ships with fast ships in the same reserve force, towards a legal destination hex, that is 7 hexes away, even though some of the ships in the reserve force can't move 7 hexes, as long as there are opposition blocking forces in the way, that the reserve force must move through to get to the legal destination hex, but then can only take enough of the slow/er ships to resolve the pin action in the intervening hex, and then only enough to satisfy the pinning requirements, including the command rating differential, and the requirement that a moving reserve force isn't allowed to leave more than half of the original number of moving units behind to resolve pinning".
When the answer could be:
"You can't move the slower ships in the reserve force if the legal destination hex is further than their maximum possible move".
Sure, but the current rules express it pretty simply if taken at face value, roughly:
"When moving a reserve, the minimum number of ships must be left behind (and no more than 50% of the ships that move)."
You don't need an extra rule to grant permission if there's nothing that denies it. The actual ambiguity comes from moving a reserve partially composed of auxes when the route to go around an enemy ship is 4 hexes but the route to go past enemy ships is only 3. Can you get some ships pinned then (in order to get the auxes to the battle), or are you obligated to leave them behind so that you leave fewer ships behind? (this is even weirder with a single fast ship potentially being the only legal reserve to a hex...)
Sam wrote:
>> Sure, but the current rules express it pretty simply if taken at face value, roughly:>>
But it doesn't, really.
Assuming a reserve force of 1 Fast ship and 2 not-Fast ships.
If the legal destination hex for the reserve is 7 hexes away, the not-Fast ships can't move with the reserve, but the Fast ship can.
If the legal destination hex for the reserve is 7 hexes away, and there is one ship in the way, that the reserve force *must* cross over to get to the legal destination hex, the not-Fast ships can move with the reserve force. But only one of them.
If the legal destination hex for the reserve is 7 hexes away, and there are 2 ships in the way, that the reserve force *must* cross over to get to the legal destination hex, and the reserve force and the blocking ships have the same maximum command rating, the not-Fast ships cannot move with the reserve force, as a 3 ship reserve force can't leave 2 ships behind for pinning.
If the legal destination hex for the reserve is 7 hexes away, and there are 2 ships in the way, that the reserve force *must* cross over to get to the legal destination hex, and the reserve force and the blocking ships do not have the same maximum command rating, and the reserve force has a command rating that is at least 1 higher than the blocking force, then one of the not-Fast ships can move with the reserve force, the other must be left behind, and the not-Fast ship moving with the reserve force must be used for the pinning requirement in the hex with the blocking ships.
This calculus becomes even more convoluted with a larger (mixed Fast/not-Fast) reserve force and a larger blocking force. And then if you mix some Auxes into the mix, it gets even weirder. And then mix in "If just the fast ship moves to a closer legal destination hex, maybe it can go around the blocking ships, but if it takes the not-Fast ships, it can't, and can drop off the not-Fast ships". And then add in that even with all of this verbiage, I *still* might be getting something wrong.
That is *way* too many words to solve what could be a reasonably simple movement situation. And could, instead of all of this, just be (without harming the function or balance of the game in any way):
"You can't move the slower ships in the reserve force if the legal destination hex is further than their maximum possible move".
Like, to be clear, I'm not super advocating for a rules change or anything. But this particular rule interaction is, as it turns out, really convoluted, kind of nutty, and really would be better served by the simple rule rather than the likely accidentally super complicated and convoluted rule.
One problem with the FD7, 3 D5 force is that there's a 50% requirement that can't be satisfied (203.742).
A) Yes, that is a problem with this whole issue.
B) If the FD7, 3D5 force leaves behind 2D5 at the start of it's move (i.e. it detaches 2D5 from the reserve force all together), it's fine, as then the reserve force is only 2 ships. (203.742) only is relevant when the reserve force is already moving; (203.72) indicates that any portion of the reserve force can move as the reserve force, even a single ship.
The "you can't leave behind more than 50% of your reserve force to resolve pinning" (203.742) only applies to the reserve force once it starts moving. But if you have a reserve force that contains 12 ships, and you choose to only move 1 of them when the reserve starts moving for whatever reason, that is perfectly legal.
So (203.742) is relevant in this issue (you can't leave behind more than half your reserve force to resolve pinning, once the reserve force starts moving), but only after you start moving the reserve force, and that can be any portion of the reserve force.
So in my example of [FD7, 3D5] as a reserve force, it can start moving with the FD7 alone, or the FD7 and D5, or the FD7 and all 3D5s. But once the reserve force starts moving, it can't leave behind more than 50% of the ships, so if [FD7, 3D5] start moving as the reserve force, and pinning requirements would cause the force to have to leave behind all 3D5, the reserve force can't move at all (to that otherwise legal destination hex).
By Charles W Popp (Captnchuck67) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 12:06 pm: Edit
quick question,
What can the Romulans do with the diplomatic EP they get for turns 1-10?
I typically see Romulan players use it to pay for conversions and/or survey rights.
They could also run APTs to the Klingons to get KR spare parts (only 0.1 per APT, but it can add up) ...
Unless those Romulan APTs are released, I don't think they can. The Klingons have APTS they could use maybe?
I don't think any ships other than Diplomats can enter Romulan/Federation/NZ hexes - prior to the Romulans entering the War - so I doubt KR Spare parts can be sent prior to turn 10?
(i.e. the specific rule of no ships entering future belligerents applies - the only current exemption being Klingons on turn 1 around the Wyn hex and Diplomatic Ships/Teams).
Last time I played with Trade/Dip Teams - Romulans (and Gorn/Feds etc) just converted a few ships, prior to War.
I have seen some players just save the money and then go on a spending spree on CT10 and CT11 (max carriers, for example).
I believe that APTs as newly built ships are released s they do not have an assigned fleet to go to and the route to the Klingons is allowed otherwise, the Romulans couldn't get any of their KR deliveries (the K4s in the PWC and those APTs are basically doing KR maintenance) ...