I'm not at the board, but in rough terms:

The Romulans had several big scouts (SP and FH scouts) and the Gorns had almost none, so it was just a matter of how much the Gorns wanted to give up in COMPOT on the starbase to improve the EW situation, which is rarely a situation which results in EW being worthwhile (unless you are a Kzinti, of course).

The Romulans had no shortage of maulers; something like six war maulers and four 10 point maulers to start with (they have a lot less now).

The Romulans had a lot of 5-point cripples to put on the line to get to 63 COMPOT in pursuit, and the KC9.

I will take a look at the mauler issue in round 4 as it looks like we missed that the mauler doesn't function - that probably saves a cripple for the Gorns. But there was plenty of damage to get the SIDS, so not a retconning problem.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 07:52 am: Edit

So catching up on the big fight over the Gorn homeworld--T14, yeah?

The Romulans direct SIDs-ed the SB to death with mostly maulers. Killed the DNT (I didn't see where that happened in the chart; what got the DNT?). Fled after the SB went down. Correct?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 12:06 pm: Edit

T15C

The Romulans jumped on the homeworld, shooting DNT, 8xSIDS, and the crippled SB, in order, over ten rounds, then running.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Ah, ok; I figured out how to read the chart finally. Got it!

The Gorn DNT: Best saved for pursuits :-)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Well, it was like 4 PDUs, basically, in that I had to shoot it down before I could get down to business. I assumed his 10 pointers would shock, but no such luck; the Alliance is doing very well on its very small number of shock rolls so far. The Coalition wasn't going to SIDS the Starbase down into it though.

Sorry the spreadsheet is a little confusing (Alliance casualties go on the Coalition line, and vice versa, because it is Coalition damage...) but this is how I set it up on notebook paper originally and I maintained the format when I decided not doing it in Excel was silly.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 07:42 pm: Edit

Comment moved here:

Regarding the Klingon PDUs on Kzintai, I don't think an occupying power can have more than 10 on it at a given time. It is just a major planet to the occupier, not their capital planet.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 07:51 pm: Edit

True, though ENGs could add one more PDU to the mix ...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 07:54 pm: Edit

That's a good point. I guess a couple will go somewhere else after all. Thank you for that note.

[There are no ENG in this game. So I'm stuck at ten.]

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 02:24 am: Edit

"The Klingons have planted 4 more PDUs on Kzintai (total of 12 now - they'd love to put them elsewhere, but the Starbase isn't up yet!)."

The Kzinti have to stop any PDU's being set up in 1401 - when was the first one placed and any idea why it wasn't attacked?

Allowing the BATS to live when it was being upgraded, was also a major mistake.

What have the Kzinti being doing each turn (sorry if it sounds harsh)?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Kzinti have been active. They just have only come back into 1401 to prevent Starbase upgrades (including kiling a MB upgrading to BATS once). They've killed PDUs, but the first ones were set up while most of the Kzinti fleet was still crippled on . . . CT6? They have the fleet put back together now, but presumably were waiting for... this turn, when the Starbase upgrade was paid for ... to attack.

I mean, the Kzinti don't care. They have the ships to come in any time they want and kill everything if they are willing to get mauled, and they don't care about getting mauled because there's nothing left for the Lyrans (the Klingons are mostly in Fed space) to attack anyway.

As long as they don't let a Starbase go up (which is 8 rounds of SIDS rather than, like, 3 of killing PDUs) they are always a threat to recapture the Capital.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 03:39 pm: Edit

An excellent example of the value of the threat of doing something vs. actually doing it.

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, September 10, 2021 - 11:34 am: Edit

Also, as we discovered the first time this happened, the mechanics of capital assaults prevent the Lyrans from overcrippling for minus points in the all-important round when the Kzinti are trying to get 24 to cripple the BATS. So that part, at least, is never actually hard, which means the task before the Kzinti is "survive three rounds with no fixed defenses and then have at least 90ish COMPOT for one turn and at least 50 the next." Which isn't actually particularly hard, especially if you have a quadrillion (ha!) CV's.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, September 10, 2021 - 01:54 pm: Edit

To be honest

I would expect the Kzinti to have over 110 compot if they are wanting to attack a Coalition Battle Line (noting the Upgrade Tug has to be used!) + BATS + 10 PDU's.

I would want at least 118 - so at 22.5% (BIR 5), it would do 27 damage (so best owed would be 3, unless you was able to cripple a B10 in the approach battle or something and you might get 5 owed) - sufficient to cripple the BATS.

Killing some of the PDU's after killing the BATS might also be useful - 28 Ep's to rebuild 4 PDU's might well be a worthwhile trade for crippling the bulk of a Kzinti line.

DN(ADM), 2 x CC, 2 x BC, 2 x CV+2MEC+EFF and 12 points of Drone would be 118 to protect the CV's from direct killing - or drop the extra MEC's for a MSC and CD for 5 Extra EW...

(So 1 CP is used)

Swopping a CV group for a BATS upgrade is probably just about worthwhile..... (EP wise it is).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, September 10, 2021 - 08:21 pm: Edit

Oh yeah, no question, and the Kzinti -have- killed PDUs when they could reasonably do so. The 10 that are there are ... maybe half of the PDUs that have been delivered to 1401.

I was just pointing out how little COMPOT the Kzinti are forced to field to be likely to kill the BATS in only two rounds over Kzintai. It isn't hard. Of course the Kzinti can and should put up a better line.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, September 11, 2021 - 04:34 am: Edit

Hi Graham

I would disagree - due to the lack of Maulers and lack of high compot single ships - I think the Kzinti can really struggle to kill a BATS if the Coalition can keep a modest number of points owed for the next round and/or keep a high EW.

And with only 90 compot - SIDDIng it may not be easy (i.e. 22.5% and owed 3 fails to get a net 18...)

And after the first round against the BATS, the owed points becomes even worse (i.e. cripple a DN and owed 11..... and the Coalition can rinse and repeat each round - so 29 to get a SID is possible, but less than a 50/50).

And facing 200+ compot for 4 rounds+ (3 SIDS and a kill on the crippled BATS) will not be pleasant.

So best to treat it that the Kzinti MUST one shot cripple the BATS at the first attemept - which means they must ensure the highest compot is available for that round over the planet.

i.e. better to keep extra DN and CC's back rather than risk them in the Approach battle (fighting 2 or 3 extra approach battles is far better than an extra 2 to 5 rounds over the planet....)

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Saturday, September 11, 2021 - 02:47 pm: Edit

>> the Kzinti can really struggle to kill a BATS

I was thinking the same thing. One thing the Coalition could do to hinder the Kzinti is to lend 6xD6Ds to the Lyrans in Kzinti space, to help them boost their EW (3 on the line, 3 for bombardment) as well as boost COMPOT to help pop directed damage targets.

From my perspective, I'd think that the Kzinti would really want to minimize their exposure of valuable hulls to the Coalition when undertaking this kind of targeted reverse capital assault. Given the strength of the Lyran fleets at that point in the game and the ready availability of maulers, I'd think that as soon as a Kzinti DN makes an appearance it would be instantly directed. Same thing with the CC and BC hulls, which would most likely not have the formation bonus so they are easy targets. And the Coalition gets two directs: one normally and one from the mauler.

The trick from a Kzinti fleet composition point of view is to bring the right mix of ships so as to be able to fight the 3 garbage approach rounds, then boost COMPOT to cripple the BATs, drop the fleet back down to finish off the BATs, then be prepared to be pursued.

And the Kzinti have to be careful about bringing too many high CR ships, or they may be forced to command the garbage rounds and may be directed before they even reach the capital planet itself.

Graham, what kind of Lyran line and COMPOT would you typically put up when opposing these kinds of Kzinti hit-and-run assaults? I imagine it would be quite strong, based upon what you've shared previously.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, September 11, 2021 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Mike

One slight correct - Maulers don't get you a second 'direct' - just the directing on one target* is more efficient

* - A carrier group (or escorted group if playing with G ships etc) could be targeted as the one permitted directing - although in pursuit you can maul multiple crippled ships.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, September 11, 2021 - 10:29 pm: Edit

Hey, happy to hear it, I've been assuming my BATS upgrade was doomed. The problem is that you can't overcripple effectively going from approach to the Capital fight. Which means at best the Kzinti are shooting for 27, which isn't that hard to get even with a 2 shift, especially in Y176.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 06:02 am: Edit

Easiest thing to do is just to remind Trent what the objective is (kill the BATS) and let him read the last few posts.

Zero point in putting up the best line possible for the approach and then lacking a key hull or two for the main battle over the BATS.

As it's a key battle, make sure you both take your time and check key aspects.

EW, Ship Numbers, BIR for Maulers etc.

Does Trent have any CVD's - might be better to use a 4CVD group - and then use as many good ships as possible?

2 x DN(ADM on one), 2 x CC, 2 x BC, 2 x CD, MSC(F), TGT+SP(S), CVD+MEC+MEC+FKE, 12 pts of Drone = 126/11

Just thought - if you have Prime Teams - that's 130/11...

Yes, Trent would probably lose a DN - but with Fighters and the MEC's being crippled that might limit the pain somewhat. (Although, a Kzinti CVA would be better!) - if the Coalition dialed EW to say 13, -1 on the dice still gives him a good chance.

Getting to 133 would be my target though (so 20% with -3 STILL gets a net 24).

Most important thing though is that Trent can't risk taking anything BIR other than a 4. Yes, a average roll might get the required damage at BIR 2 or BIR 3 say - but why risk it?

(and a modest roll at the higher BIR might one shot kill the BATS so saving a round killing the crippled BATS).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 10:15 am: Edit

Even if you don't get enough damage to kill the base, if you score a SIDS on it, it prevents the base from being upgraded, delaying the upgrade until after the base is repaired.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 02:16 pm: Edit

>> delaying the upgrade until after the base is repaired

I was under the (perhaps erroneous) impression that if a BATS was being upgraded to a SB and the BATS was SIDS or crippled during the upgrade turn (but not destroyed) then the upgrade is completed but the new SB carries along the SIDS or crippled state?

Base game (433.41) B appears to touch on this. Other expansions may as well, and I think there were some edits about this during the Warbook process?

--Mike

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 02:17 pm: Edit

And Paul thanks very much for your correction about directed damage. You are absolutely correct.

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Actually, the Kzinti have a CVA now, and a couple of DWE's, so they can do better than the line I mentioned. No PT's.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Hmm, I remember this as a contradiction, but I cannot find the rule I am thinking of. I don't remember if it was a ruling or in print somewhere. Anyone else remember where this is?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Richard.... wasn't it something mentioned in the Warbook topics?