From thread:

http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/41752.html?SaturdayJune0520210745pm#POST840948

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Quote:

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 17, 2021 - 02:43 pm: Edit

(433.4) A base must be undamaged to start the upgrade process. A base could be crippled or damaged by SIDS during the upgrade process and this would cancel the upgrade. (The funds paid for the upgrade are still there, "attached" to that base, and the upgrade can resume once the base is repaired. # FEDS If a base takes SIDS during an upgrade, then the upgrade is completed normally and the SIDS points will remain with the upgraded base.

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Quote:

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, June 19, 2021 - 11:32 am: Edit

From the lost files...

(433.4) A base must be undamaged to start the upgrade process. A base could be crippled or damaged by SIDS during the upgrade process and this would cancel the upgrade. (The funds paid for the upgrade are still there, "attached" to that base, and the upgrade can resume once the base is repaired.

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Quote:

(433.41) B: During the time it is being upgraded, the base has the original factors. If destroyed during this turn, the points spent to upgrade it are lost. If crippled during this turn, the upgrade is completed after the Combat Phase and then the base is crippled (based on the upgraded factors).

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By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Also possibly related:

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Quote:

(420.64) SINGLE FUNCTION: A single tug can repair (420.61) or upgrade (433.41) a base on a given turn; it cannot do both. Two tugs could conduct these two functions on the same turn. A tug could be repaired by a base and then upgrade that same base on the same turn.

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By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 07:21 pm: Edit

The most recent clarification is the one from 2021 saying a SIDS delays a conversion, I think. Thanks for finding the post.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, September 12, 2021 - 11:19 pm: Edit

And another relevant message from Mr. Howard:

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Quote:

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, July 23, 2021 - 02:30 pm: Edit

"
By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, June 17, 2021 - 02:43 pm: Edit


(433.4) A base must be undamaged to start the upgrade process. A base could be crippled or damaged by SIDS during the upgrade process and this would cancel the upgrade. (The funds paid for the upgrade are still there, "attached" to that base, and the upgrade can resume once the base is repaired. # FEDS If a base takes SIDS during an upgrade, then the upgrade is completed normally and the SIDS points will remain with the upgraded base. "

Sorry - must be being thick - current rule doesn't mention about not being damaged to start the upgrade process (which may explain it being a 'lost rule'...)...

...but current rule confirms a based crippled during the upgrade process is upgraded, but is crippled.

The possible new rule seems to contradict itself

'A base could be crippled or damaged by SIDS during the upgrade process and this would cancel the upgrade' and '# FEDS If a base takes SIDS during an upgrade, then the upgrade is completed normally and the SIDS points will remain with the upgraded base. '

i.e. does a SID 'defer' (until repaired) the upgrade and once repaired, is the base upgraded automatically and immediately or is a tug required to complete the upgrade and is there a delay?

(Game effect, unless pinned out of the hex, could you just keep attacking the hex/base and do 1 SID a turn and defer the upgrade indefinitely?)

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By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 12:20 am: Edit

>> Thanks for finding the post.

My pleasure. With hundreds of pages and thousands of lines of rules, sometimes it is understandably challenging to find the exact one one might be looking for....

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 02:28 am: Edit

Ahh - the 'lost' rules conversation

(Lost in both distant and recent memory too!!!)

My post to SVC confirms my position on this new/ changed rule.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, September 14, 2021 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Well, the official update will follow in the game thread, but while we didn't get a lot done, the Alliance has put its production on - board and started moving ships, including dropping virtually every Kzinti SEQ on 1401. So we'll see. I think the only Alliance moves left are Trent deciding which Hydran ships go recapture planet 0519 (again... those poor people must be tired of the Klingons and Hydrans trading off).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, September 24, 2021 - 11:12 am: Edit

Delays due to my opponent being busy with school. He will put his econ reports together soon and then we will be back on the horse. AT15 is mostly done, although combat continues.

The Roms lost 2 FRDs to a Federation surprise attack, which is going to be annoying.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, September 28, 2021 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Full update to follow, but all AT15 combat is done except 1401. The only significant result apart from people running and giving up FF's (mostly the Coalition) is the fight in 4107, where the Feds snuck in with a stack that the Coalition thought was just in transit and killed some FRD's at the cost of a LOT of frigates. In EPs and ship builds, surely the Coalition came out ahead, but if it means the Gorn capital lives to fight another day due to 24 repair not happening, then I doubt anyone will begrudge a few FF's.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, September 29, 2021 - 02:00 am: Edit

What died in 4107?

Certainly strategically, the Alliance won (saving the Gorn Capital for 1 turn)…. but tactically by the sounds of things the Coalition won.

Feds need to get some proper hulls into the Gorn capital to help save it though.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, September 29, 2021 - 11:09 am: Edit

As he said, full update to follow...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, September 30, 2021 - 02:24 am: Edit

I wonder if a rule has been missed?

2714 1 Coalition 5 72 4 0 8 6 42.50% 30.6 Direct LSC (30) (+1)

2509 1 Coalition 6 89 1 0 5 6 35.00% 31.15 Direct LSC (30) (+1)

The Alliance only had 4 EW - so there was no other Scout being used.

It's possible the Alliance used the LSC 'on the line' - for the extra 2 Compot the ship provided (probably not a good idea.... but it's allowed) - but the damage resolved then doesn't tally.

I assume the LSC was in the Scout Box - and in effect mauled when crippled?

The Scout Box (along with the Form Box) is Mauler proof unless the target is crippled - but you can't direct cripple it for normal damage (27 in this occasion) and then Maul kill in a single shot the crippled LSC (which would be 4 damage with the Mauler) - so 31 damage to kill with a full Mauler.

To kill a uncrippled ship though in the Scout box requires the full 3:1 directing modifier - so for a LSC (due to the Scout bonus) is 39 to 1 shot kill it.

Only way to Cripple and then Kill (with a Mauler modifier) a ship in the Scout/Form box is to cripple in 1 round and kill in a following round (or pursuit).

(There are some Scout ships which have an EW value when crippled - so would be eligible for the Scout Box).

So easy question - how did the Coalition kill the 2 LSC's?

Thanks

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, September 30, 2021 - 07:33 am: Edit

The LSC would be 30 points to kill by directed damage in the scout box. It is a CL base hull:
6 (front) + 3 (back) + 1 (scout bonus) = 10 x 3 = 30

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, September 30, 2021 - 10:54 am: Edit

Yeah, the difference between the LSC and the D6S was big this turn, because the Feds ended up not being able to shoot the scout box while the Klingons could... twice.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, October 01, 2021 - 02:32 am: Edit

Ahh - sorry, my mistake.

I assumed it was a Gorn LSC being killed (should have looked at the hex number closer) and not a Federation LSC (haven't recently played with SO and so didn't noticed there was more than 1 ship called the LSC).

Probably using the Fed-LSC in a pinning deep space battle was an error - if it only takes 30 to kill (although I suppose that's the same as a Lyran BC!) - even noting a good roll was needed to kill it.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, October 01, 2021 - 11:47 am: Edit

Probably? But the Feds can make 2-3 of them a turn, even now with their reduced econ, so it isn't like even losing two the same turn is going to reduce their availability. And if the dice break the other way, the Feds get D6S kills, which are ... okay, not exactly rare anymore but less replaceable than LSC's.

He really should have had a couple with the force in 4107... although of course it was precisely the absence of hulls like LSC's that made me overlook them.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 12:37 pm: Edit

So between 4107 and 1401, there was a big swing in pincount (by the standards of these things) in favor of the Coalition this turn. The Alliance fed hulls to the meat grinder to get strategic objectives accomplished, and got their targets, at the cost of a bunch of ships that won't be coming back (and a lot more that will after repairs.)

In return, they keep half the Lyran fleet anchored to 1401 for the foreseeable future, and probably maintain the Gorn capital another turn or two, as the Romulans now have a grand total of one FRD in range of 4402, when three wasn't really enough.

Maybe their uncrippled ships (plus all the fighters coming back) will be enough, but it's far from clear that this is the case, and if the Gorns do get to churn out a couple more turns of production, that would be more valuable than a few Federation FF's.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Graham

What can the Feds sent to the Gorn capital?

Quality and EW is needed.

Over 1401 - the liens shouldn't have used FF (other than to fill it out) - but kept the best hulls for the first round over the planet.

i.e. DN in form, 3 x 3CV and FF's.... or something….. might have saved a round or 2?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 10:12 pm: Edit

The Feds can't get a lot of quality to the Gorn Capital at this point, although they already have a lot of meat (FFs) there.

Over 1401 the first three rounds on approach were all CV+EFF+EFF+FF + 6FF or something with an Admiral. I forget exactly, maybe there was one good escort in there. I thought that was pretty good strategy, although I would have added more fighters. He just has to survive 3 rounds with the good stuff intact.

The problem was the 10 PDUs on Kzintai, which has been the problem ever since they started building up.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Tuesday, October 12, 2021 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Note the Lyran CVA is conjectural. And thus is not normally buildable. It looks like you were building one - were you allowing that?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, October 12, 2021 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Tim:

Yeah, pretty much everything conjectural is going to be allowed unless it requires rules that we don't want to mess with or which aren't in 2010/AO/FO/CO. So the Feds get to make 4 point scouts out of CL hulls, the Lyrans get to make a CVA now and then, the Gorns get mauler-analogues, etc.

We're pretty sure this is going to balance out generally speaking, or at least be "insignificant next to the awful strategic mistakes we are both making." This being our first game and all.

I mean, maybe this is a mistake, but it's fun to have options.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, October 12, 2021 - 11:22 pm: Edit

>> I mean, maybe this is a mistake, but it's fun to have options.

And that's the point of the game, isn't it? To have fun?

I'm certainly having fun reading along!

--Mike

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Wednesday, October 13, 2021 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Ah, cool. I never got to build one, sniff. My opponents always said no, then I generally did not use anything conjectural in later games.

The one conjectural thing I did use once was the various war dreadnoughts. In the hopes it would let the alliance afford some. Did not really matter, though the Klingons spammed WD5's for the few turns before X-ships were available.

Fun!

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, October 14, 2021 - 12:59 pm: Edit

So a belated state of the war message now that exhaustion has hit.

Economically, the Coalition is doing pretty well. The Klingons and Lyrans managed to develop modest war chests in the last couple of turns before exhaustion, and can mostly build their schedules without too many downshifts from their basic income and conquered territory. The Romulans are a little worse off, as they have a huge repair backlog, and will probably get in trouble at some point. However, they also have a much lighter build schedule than the Klingons, so they can repair more because they have less to do with the money.

The Alliance is churning along; both the Hydrans and Feds have problems keeping the capital connected to the main grid in the offmap, and the Kzinti are stuck offmap, but the Federation economy has been mostly stable for a few turns now; the Klingons can't take a lot of new territory without leaving themselves open to counterattack, and the Romulans have stripped the Federation frontier and are barely over the border due to the demands of the fight in Gorn space.

Pincount is probably a little bit in favor of the Coalition at this point; nobody has really been overbuilding a lot of ships, and the Alliance has probably dropped more damage in this game than in some.

Militarily, it appears that the Gorn Capital will eventually fall (the question is whether or not the Klingons will have to "help" somehow more than whether it will actually happen; the Romulans can keep pounding and the Gorns do not have the repair capacity to keep up now that the fixed defenses are gone). That gives the Coalition two capitals - assuming it happens - and probably a significant VP edge.

Looking forward, however, neither the Romulans nor the Klingons have made any provision to deal with the coming Tholian menace; there may be some hell to pay on that score since neither empire (prior to Turn 16) had even a dozen SEQ within 6 hexes of Tholian space. In addition, the Coalition's determination not to allow effective resistance in the Western galaxy means that the Klingons and Romulans really don't outnumber the Feds and Gorns that much; and the Lyrans have barely entered Federation space at all (the only Lyran combat ships that have entered blue hexes were cripples that had to catch up with the Lyran FRD park in the vicinity of 2204).

Still everything to play for, although speaking as the Coalition player, I'm getting more confident.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, October 23, 2021 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Combat is going, and full report to follow. The Hydrans traded a couple of hulls on approach but didn't defend the outer planets, and the Klingons redevastated them without a lot of event.

In Federation space, everyone lost a few hulls but no one fought a battle lasting beyond a single round (Other than the Klingons demolishing BATS 3206.)

In 4402...

7 rounds in, the casualties have been heavy on both sides, and the Gorn/Fed alliance has dropped two autokills in addition to directing every other turn. The Coalition hasn't rolled that well, but have held their own due to an EW advantage, and have mostly been chasing the Federation CVA group off the line so far (successfully, but it managed to burn its fighters first). The Romulans still have a lot of fighters, and haven't taken too many cripples, but they may run out of carrier groups before fighters, and the Alliance has shot some expensive ships (2 FHM, some maulers, and so on.)

The fight continues.