On 4402...

Hence why all those LSC's were needed in Gorn space rather than being used (and lost) in deep space battles.

Can the Coalition capture 4402 this turn?

It may not be as bad with the expansions - but I do find the Romulans very vulnerable to be left with a lot of ships for a battle - but not able to make up a good Battle Line due to a mismatch of too many Carriers and not enough Escorts (and normal ships) to fill the line out.

i.e. 4 x SPB carriers with a single escort each are not only vulnerable in major battles - but you can only use 2 groups per round!

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, October 24, 2021 - 12:48 pm: Edit

The Romulans have a lot of carriers, but I have a lot of escorts too, including a bunch of FHM's (although the Alliance has also shot some of them) and so far the Feds and Gorns have been happy to kill 9 and 10 point cruisers over escorts some of the time.

All that said, the number of frigates the Feds and Gorns can put up in battle groups and cripple is ... a lot. And neither of us have indicated we are more committed to the fight than the war so far; no one has dropped damage unless it was the Feds accepting an autokill with a CVA line.

The Romulans are running out of cruisers, and their line is dropping into the 90s to keep the carriers up and feeding fighters into the maw of the Alliance war machine.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, October 24, 2021 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Graham

That is just the problem - you don't use Frigates when defending a Shipyard (outside of 3 if your building and using Battlegroups and the other 3 slots should be NCL's).

What are the compots and EW?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, October 24, 2021 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Gorn/Feds have had a 5-15 COMPOT advantage but are giving away a 2 shift, in part because they have been burning their fighters. They could do better. Paul, this isn't the first fight over the shipyard; everyone has a repair backlog (the Romulans more than the Gorns, but still). This is turn three of the assault and both sides have a bunch of frigates along simply because once they run out of good ships they'll need something to put up (although maybe it will be better to run).

The Romulans arrived with five non-mauler heavy cruisers (SUP,2xKRC,K7R,KE). Total. All the others are under repair or haven't made it back North. For what it's worth, mostly the Gorns and Feds haven't put up a lot of FFs yet.

[I think that may be a mistake - and have said so - and that the strategy may be to put up three FF's every turn and make them the first thing taken as damage every turn, aggressively crippling them to use the damage and keep fighters and bigger stuff, even if it means lower COMPOT early on. The Alliance has chosen to maintain COMPOT, and has been rewarded with a couple of autokills...]

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, October 25, 2021 - 12:07 pm: Edit

>> the strategy may be to put up three FF's every turn and make them the first thing taken as damage

In longer fights, I'm definitely a fan of reserving a portion of the BF for damage absorption, be it war cruisers, frigates, or whatever lower end ships you have on hand. It helps keep your better ships in the fight longer (which can boost overall damage dealt), and helps steer incoming damage towards cheaper to repair ships (on an EP/DP basis).

This can also lead to having a larger number of better ships exit combat uncrippled, thereby providing better options for retrograde and the preparation of subsequent defensive positions.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, October 25, 2021 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Graham

The main issue is -2 on the dice in major battles, is a huge issue

Example
Alliance 115 Compot and -2 due to EW
Coalition 100 Compot

Both sides get 30% - so 25% for the Alliance

Coalition does 30 damage.... and Alliance only does 29 damage.

At lower rolls - Coalition does even better and at higher rolls Alliance does better

i.e. 15% v 20% = 17 v 20
30% v 35% = 35 v 35

Winning 'EW' is a major force multiplier.

In other words - those LSC's should have been sent to Gorn space years ago

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, October 25, 2021 - 06:17 pm: Edit

I certainly agree EW matters and further that it matters more in big fights [although as mentioned, the dice have been giving the shift back, so far], but that didn't happen in this game.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, October 30, 2021 - 01:21 am: Edit

Heading into Round -fourteen- in 4402. The Romulans are about to finally run out of fighters, after which they may run, or may not. So far, apart from autokills, everyone has been playing the long game and shooting ships.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, October 31, 2021 - 12:26 am: Edit

>> while the Coalition dropped rocks from orbit

Orbital bombardment FTW!

--Mike

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, October 31, 2021 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Something about the high ground, I believe ...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, November 01, 2021 - 12:23 am: Edit

I've always assumed that "devastating planets" just involved dropping rocks, because if you have a tractor beam, why would you waste ammunition. Maybe during a firefight, with directed damage, although who directs planets that don't have defenses? (Not me, I don't think.)

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, November 01, 2021 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Nothing says we won quite like using mass drivers on your enemy's cities from orbit.

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, November 01, 2021 - 01:49 pm: Edit

Taking stock after CT16:

The Hydran front has been static for a long time, with the Capital surrounded but the Hydrans able to smuggle in EPs via transport on a fairly regular basis. The outer planets have been re-devastated, and there is no end in sight, but to maintain the status quo, the Coalition has to keep more, and better, ships in the quadrant than the Hydrans have. So this isn't a terrible situation for the Alliance.

[Except that, if the Gorn Capital falls, the Coalition may well throw caution to the wind and abandon some space to get the hulls needed to take Hydrax...]

The Kzinti sector is also static. The Kzinti are still hiding in the off map, and have virtually no chance of holding anything anytime soon. But, again, the Lyrans are keeping as many and better ships in the sector to hold them off, so this isn't a terrible trade for the Alliance. They have also kept a Starbase off of 1401 thus far, although at great cost.

Federation space continues to be a game of cat and mouse. The Klingons have not been willing to come within 2 of the Capital, but have continued to spread out through Federation space. Off and on the Feds have gotten rambunctious and retaken some planets (which they can totally do whenever they want) but mostly the Federation is happy to sit and build hulls and generate a pincount superiority in the theater for now; apart from killing a bunch of frigates garrisoning provinces every turn the Feds don't do a lot (other than help the Gorns...) The Federation total economy (between the off map main grid and the Capital main grid) is still ~150 EP, so they are able to do most of what they need to do.

The Gorns are going to lose their Capital eventually (I think?) as there are no more fixed defenses, and the Romulans can keep bashing away. The Federation has come to help, and could certainly send more ships, but committing to fighting a huge open space battle for multiple rounds every turn - and maybe on both turns if the Romulans start setting up fixed defenses - is not necessarily what the Alliance wants to be arranging.

However, this is AT16, so the Tholian entrance into the war is looming, and the Coalition has -nothing- facing Tholian space right now. The Romulan side just has a couple frigates holding Federation provinces, and the Klingon side has a small fleet that is in Federation space, fighting Feds, and a few cripples getting repaired on SB 3518.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, November 13, 2021 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Two questions

1) "The Federation does have one fleet within 12 of 4402 however, at BATS 3203 (Essentially four full reserves from CT16 that chased off a significant Klingon fleet.) So they can still get those into the Gorn capital if they want, with BATS 3804 still alive to support them."

Whats cutting te SMN link from Sol to 3203?

(As if 3203 can SMN to 4402.... I can't see what the break is )

2) Why no new Scouts for the Feds or Gorn?

The Alliance have been giving up 5+ Damage per round of combat - and they absolutely must build some good scouts (and not throw them away in irrelevant Deep Space Battles).

Even if the Turn has started - Trent really must correct this massive issue for the Gorns.

(Otherwise, the Alliance is playing Suicide Chess very well.)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, November 14, 2021 - 10:55 am: Edit

Stewart: Good point; I'm guessing he forgot for five seconds that Fed FF's are 3. I always do.

Paul
1) The Romulans took 3509, the Klingons took 3306, 3005, and killed BATS 3206. There is no path from 3203 to the capital because of the garrisons, and 3706 is too far from the capital inner ring starbases with no intermediate stopover point (even though the path is open, it's seven hexes long).

The Feds will have no trouble regaining a path, but for now, at the end of CT16, the path is cut.

2) The Feds converted two four point scouts(?). I don't know why the Gorns didn't make any, but I'll ask.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, November 14, 2021 - 11:42 am: Edit

Ahh

So after combat - the Alliance may have a SMN route to the Gorn Capital.

However, a retreat in the wrong (or right) direction could scupper that - so it's crucial the Gorns have more EW now.

Easy thing to overlook - playing all the Alliance is more difficult than all the Coalition.

Easy to mistake to make - I played World In Flames with all the expansions about 15 years ago - and I was the Axis. After about 8 turns - I noticed I had overlooked one of the Plane classes and so it took a while to correct it (IIR there are 10 different classes of plane)!

(WiF is one one of the few games with not only MORE Counters than F&E - but far more complex counters!!!!)

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, November 14, 2021 - 05:35 pm: Edit

>> (WiF is one one of the few games with not only MORE Counters than F&E - but far more complex counters!!!!)

That's one of the beautiful things about (original) F&E. It was designed by someone who knows the perils of an overly complex game and so many good decisions were made to abstract complexity and simplify play.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, November 15, 2021 - 09:18 am: Edit

Eeek - sorry missed this in the builds :-

"The Hydrans are putting up fixed defences on the minor planet in the capital system, having the maximum in the capital already."

There is perhaps no greater waste of Ep's for the Hydrans than building PDU's outside of the capital planet (unless they are able to also build a SB over that planet too).

PDU's are far too easily killed - and don't generate even close to their cost in Damage back to the Coalition (3 PDU's might add 20-30 damage done if you had 4PDU's and go to 7 PDU's say) 30 Damage is 5 CW's crippled.... and 7.5 Ep's to repair.

Paid for PDU's potentially only work if they are in large numbers (as they get to fight for multiple rounds and may allow you to cross the damage threshold to enforce self kills**).

** - On a Pure EP exchange basis, that is perhaps the only time a PDU will do more EP damage than it cost (accepting the Strategic Benefits it gives),

Build the Pal or RN instead - far better use of the EP's

The Federation has built PDUs as well but they have not yet begun set up and may go elsewhere.

Same thing as above - outside of Earth - a waste of money (unless you can get a SB over it to) - and the Feds look like they are short of Ep's too.

Fed Carriers in Gorn Space.

Remember the Gorns can set up Homeless Supply lines (410.5) for the Feds (accepting they go to nominal strength with standard fighters) - so paying for the CVA and FCR to be in full supply will give them 12 Fighters and 6 back ups - for the cost of just 2 Ep's (2 ships and 1 CV surcharge).

Really important to keep them supplied.

Depending on fighter numbers and EW on both sides - might allow a spoiling attack to be made (or help keep a SMN grid back to Fed space)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, November 21, 2021 - 04:43 am: Edit

Gary

The additional PDU's are not for the Capital planet - so max is 10 (for the majors).

So 10 PDU's will take 3-4 rounds to kill (owed points etc) and once 6 are dead - Coalition would probably be happy to kill key hulls over more PDU's?

Those 42 Ep's would be better saved (if they do need to retreat to the Old Colonies*) or ensure full construction and carriers where needed are built, IMHO - the Hydran Economy can't afford to waste Ep's!

* - I have seen in more than 1 game, the new Ship Yard being delayed as the Hydrans can't sometimes afford both 15 Ep's for the Shipyard and repairs to repair the battered fleet - so one gets delayed.

You may get more value in some games than others, but I don't think the Hydrans will get better value than not buying non-Capital PDU's

By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Sunday, November 21, 2021 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Hi Paul, all,

I don't think I would ever build a non-capital PDU. Perhaps 1 single PGB to hold a planet, maybe. In addition to being expensive, it takes too long and too many resources(tugs) to emplace them. The benefit over the capital is that you keep them in front of the SB longer. Sure, compot is cool with 10 PDU, but they melt fast, and they are so dang expensive. Huge effort for the smallish Hydran economy, and exhaustion is close....

And, PDU really are too expensive. 5 EP might even be too much. One reason why the game has gotten out of balance in favor of the Coalition, but that's a discussion for a different day.

Hydran shipcount is especially important if they are kicked offmap - as it is too easy to keep them pinned out offmap and not able to be an effective threat. Even in this game, where they retain the capital - keeping the line open is not only a quality but quantity question.

Hydrans are difficult for sure.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, November 22, 2021 - 02:35 am: Edit

Sorry - must be mis-reading the the Battle Chart

3210 1 Coalition 0 0 Cloak fails. SSC (2 casualties) (SNB retreats)
Alliance 0 No casualties (2xFF in combat)

518 1 Coalition 0 0
Alliance 0 Dead 4xHR


2 Casualties in SSC would require the SNB to be crippled and the Federation could then persue (yes, only 1 in 6 chance of a sucess with 2 ships).

What would cause the Hydrans to attack with with no fighters it seems and then self kill 4 x HR?

(SFG present perhaps would be the only thing that could cause 4 x HR's to die in 1 round....)

Thanks

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, November 22, 2021 - 09:38 am: Edit

>> I don't think I would ever build a non-capital PDU.

One circumstance in which non-capital PDUs can be useful is when the Coalition takes a strategically located planet in enemy territory and then builds a base (probably a Starbase) over the planet. PDUs placed on the planet can then serve more or less the same purpose as capital planet PDUs.

But generally, yes, I don't see a lot of efficient economic use for PDUs. They are somewhat more useful now than they were in the early editions of the game. In my mid-80s play group we never built PDUs at all -- they were considered too easy to kill and too expensive for what you get. Important locations were defended with multiple bases, which isn't doesn't really seem to be a thing these days with the "focus of the attack" rules making such deployments much less useful.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, November 22, 2021 - 03:09 pm: Edit

Mike

I agree - I was refereeing to the Hydrans (and the Kzinti can probably be included it it too - they don't have a huge surplus of Eps, although not as short as the Hydrans).

Coalition should be building a small number to help defend key captured planets

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, November 23, 2021 - 05:56 pm: Edit

So, given the situation the Hydrans find themselves in in this scenario (large home fleet, SB + 20 PDUs on home planet), does it make sense to try and further fortify the home planet with an additional base?

Or do the "focus of the attack" rules effectively make multiple bases in the same system not particularly useful for capital defense?

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - 02:28 am: Edit

Well, I dunno, we're new to this game. I think the analysis goes like this, though:

1. The Coalition has taken 1401 and has a big fleet and 10 PDUs there, while the Kzintis are out of 10 CR ships after kicking down the last starbase construction project and have no ability to fight pitched battles. They can maybe keep the next starbase from going up, but they aren't taking back the capital.
2. The Gorn are still in 4402, but they are down two capital hexes and are getting beaten into submission steadily by the Romulans, who have a huge advantage in fighters and available repair sites.
3. If the Gorn capital falls, the Hydran capital becomes the 3rd Capital to fall... which means the Coalition wins if they take it (Maybe? I guess I'd better actually look back at the scenario rules but I thought 3 capitals was a knockout. Maybe one of them has to be Earth or something?). So making it as difficult as possible to actually take the Hydran capital hex is something that could make sense. Also, if the PDUs survive more than a couple of turns, they get heavy fighters soon.

Now, whether building more big ships is better than more PDUs, I don't know; PDUs are pricey. But they do get to fight alongside a full line, whereas a new ship has to wait its turn.