Paul, I would say that (310.11) covers this explicitly as the pursuit round is still a part of resolving the battle hex.

I understand the SSC rules, one and only one retreat maybe taken in a given combat phase of the battlehex. The second casualty done to the retreating unit cannot be resolved as a retreat so it would be resolved as a crippled ship given the above circumstances you cite. Now the Attacker, could take his casualty as a retreat, but that would force him to retreat from the battlehex, so the situation for the attacker may result in a crippled ship in order to remain in the battle hex for other purposes.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, November 04, 2021 - 05:33 am: Edit

(310.51) STANDOFF: If neither player retreats [either as retreat action (310.32) or normally under (302.7)], continue using the Small-Scale Combat system for additional rounds if necessary. If one player retreats and the other player elects to pursue, then follow the procedures for pursuit (307.0) normally but use these Small-Scale Combat procedures for resolving any pursuit combat. Since there is no option to retreat during a pursuit round, the player suffering a casualty cannot take the “retreat option” and must resolve the casualty on a valid unit.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, November 08, 2021 - 07:53 am: Edit

About the Tholian question I just asked in the main Q&A: I will say that I don't much like the sentence in the rule that is the subject of the question:

Ships can be sent to this Detached Fleet to replace losses, but must enter a hex containing a ship of the detached fleet during the same Movement Phase that they leave Tholian space.

That's confusing on at least three points. Non-detached ships don't have to be in Tholian space, intended movement may be blocked by pinning, and it's unclear when the additional ships are designated. Lastly, why have an additional mechanism for adding ships when the expeditionary fleet rules already provide one (namely, adding ships at the start of a player turn)?

I would prefer the rules to work like this:

The 12 designated ships can be changed at the start of any Tholian player turn, provided, that any ships outside the 2-hex limit remain designated.

That's easy to understand and does allow a mechanism for replacing losses at the start of the Tholian turn.

That said, I also agree with Richard's frequently-made point that the rules need to be interpreted as they are.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, November 08, 2021 - 08:53 am: Edit

For what it's worth.

I believe the phrase 'can be' was included to indicate that replacement ships can be sent, rather than once 12 ships have been designated, no further ships can be desgnated.

My best guess of interpretation is like Homeless and Expeditionary ships, the Detached Fleet is designated during 1G (if also using the Expeditionary Rules) or 1H (if not) - and that designation applies to the current player turn and opposing player turn.**

Like Homeless and Expeditionary Ships - if a ship which was so supplied is destroyed - that can't be re-allocated to another ship until the following own player turn.

** - i.e. If the fleet is likely to be used on the Tholian Supply Grid - it is just a Designated Fleet and can operate outside of 2 hexes of Tholian space - if it wants to operate (in supply) beyond the Tholians Supply Grid range and outside of the 2 hex limit, it is both a Detached and Expeditionary Fleet.

I can't see any interpretation which allows ship designation to be changed outside of the Tholian's Phase 1 - but it would help if 503.331 did refer to which Phase it should occur in.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, November 24, 2021 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Step "e" in the auto-kill rule (302.617) makes reference to a "'free' Directed Damage attack." Is this something in one of the expansions? I can't find another reference to it in the rules for the base game, and the few references to it that I can find on the BBS suggest it might be in one of the expansions.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 02:19 am: Edit

John

This is the normal permitted Directed Damage attack on a single permitted target (single unit or group with an escorted unit) - so you either choose to do the Directed Damaged attack or allow the Auto-Kill rule to be applied.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 07:13 am: Edit

It does need a rules cross reference.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 09:27 am: Edit

Hi Paul,

I'm not sure that is correct. The entirety of 302.617 subrule "e" reads: "The force scoring the damage does not use Directed Damage (other than a "free" Directed Damage attack)." To me, this sounds like a "free Directed Damage attack" is something different/distinct from the standard Directed Damage attack.

If subrule "e" is simply setting up a choice between using the standard Directed Damage attack or allowing the Auto-Kill rule to apply, there's no need for the parenthetical.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 09:58 am: Edit

Hi John

Ahhh...

Just the basic rules with me- but it may be referring to the additional directed damage attacks you get if G (or SAF???) units are being used on a Base attack - and I am guessing in Marine Assault/Combined Operations the term used will be 'a free additional Directed Damage Attack, per eligible target'?

i.e. if you attack with 2 G Ships - the defender can direct on one or both of the G Ships as Free Directed Damage Attacks (normal directing damage required etc) AND still do a normal Directed Damage attack - or allow an Auto Kill to apply.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Thursday, November 25, 2021 - 10:11 am: Edit

Thanks Paul. That makes sense. When I searched for the phrase "free Directed Damage" on the BBS, the only two places where it came up were marine assault discussions.

It sounds like something that doesn't apply to the base game, and therefore I would just ignore the parenthetical. That was my best guess, but wanted to be sure.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Tuesday, November 30, 2021 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Rule 509.1-F allows a tug to be assigned to tow an FRD during step 5-7D of the Sequence of Play as part of a retreat out of a battle hex, provided that the tug has not been assigned to any other mission that turn. Rule 421.23 allows two uncrippled ships with a defense factor of seven or more to tow an FRD instead of a tug.

Q1: If a retreating force does not have a tug, but does have two uncrippled ships with a defense rating greater than seven, can those two ships be assigned to tow the tug during the retreat to avoid the destruction of the FRD under Rule 302.742(C), even if they had not been towing it prior to the combat?

Q2: If the FRD was being towed by a tug prior to combat, but the owner believes that two large ships might give the FRD a better chance of surviving the slow unit combat round, can the owner of the FRD switch from having the FRD towed by the tug to having it towed by two ships with a defensive rating greater than seven for the retreat (and thus for the slow unit round of combat)?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, December 01, 2021 - 08:03 am: Edit

John, Q1: I will leave this one to FEAR.

Q2: Yes, 7 is the minimum defense factor required for each of the two ships required to tow the FRD. However, 8 points of damage is all that is needed to direct upon the FRD to kill it regardless of the towing ship(s) defense factors.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, December 01, 2021 - 09:48 am: Edit

I noticed this morning that I wrote "greater than seven" in my questions when I should have written "seven or greater." It doesn't change the questions, but they're not quite correct as written.

Also, for Q1, would the answer be the same if the retreating force doesn't have a tug because a) there wasn't a tug in the hex to begin with or b) there was a tug in the hex, but it was destroyed by directed damaged prior to the retreat?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, December 05, 2021 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Following up on Q2:

I agree that 8 points is all that's needed to direct on an FRD to kill it, but a smaller force may not be able to direct that much. For example, a pursuing force totaling 15-20 ComPot may be willing to take on a tug towing an FRD, but may not want to take on two heavy cruisers towing an FRD. So the owner of the FRD may be incented to transfer towing responsibility from a tug to two cruisers if he is able to do so.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 02:18 am: Edit

John

There are perhaps two factors you may be overlooking -

1)The Slow Battle 'Pursuit' force can put up a full line - but I accept, in a very very small battle, you might have a low compot.

2) The Sloe Battle 'Persuit' force picks both BIR's.

So, 2 x Fed CA's+ FRD would be 17 Compot

If the Slow Battle Persuit force was F5 plus 4 x E4 is 21 Compot.

(Less than that, what would the FRD force be retreating).

Both sides do 20% - which is enough to force a ripple on both sides.

Fed's can't cripple a CA, as the FRD will also then die as it's no longer being towed by 2 7 DC+ ships - so the FRD is self killed - and a E4 is crippled.

With slightly more compot - if 10 damage is done by the non-FRD force - it would kill the FRD and cripple a CA

So small FRD towing forces will almost always lose the FRD (about the only FRD towing forces which MIGHT 'get away' are those with a SSC or Hybrid fighters (or AUX carriers are also present) - a Fed CVL+CA for example, or 2 Hydran RN's..).

A bigger force might get some of it's FRD's safely out of the battle

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 10:01 am: Edit

Still, the question is valid for that one time that it might make a difference.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 11:00 am: Edit

Hi Paul,

It is safe to say that I am not confident in my understanding of 302.742. Let me try to explain what I think happens, and please correct me. I only have the base game so will use towing an FRD as my example.

Let's say the Federation has two NCLs, two FFs, a collection of cripples and an FRD, and attempts to retreat. The Klingons have five D7s, five F5s and a scout (keeping both fleets relatively simple for this example).

The FRD is slow, so must fight a slow-unit battle. The two FFs must retreat with the cripples. If the two NCLs were towing the FRD before combat, then they have the option of staying with the FRD or retreating with the cripples. My Q1 above was asking whether they have the option of being assigned to tow the FRD if they had not been towing it beforehand.

If they do not tow the FRD, it automatically dies per step C of 302.742, so let's assume the NCLs stay with the FRD. There will then be two combats: a pursuit battle with the FFs and cripples and a slow-units battle with the FRD and two NCLs.

The Klingons then have to form a legal non-pursuit battle force. Since a D7 can command 8 ships, the strongest force that can be put together is the leading D7, the four additional D7s, four of the five F5s, and the free scout. This force is then divided between the pursuit battle and the slow-units battle. The Klingons select two D7s and four F5s for the pursuit battle (the scout cannot be included in the pursuit battle), leaving three D7s and the scout for the slow-units battle. Plus/minus points (if any) are also divided between the two battles.

If I understand the statement "each escort added to the slow retreat force allows the pursuer to add a ship" correctly, this means that because the two NCLs stayed with the FRD, the Klingons can add up to two ships to the slow-units battle. However, in my example, they have already assigned all the ships from the original battle force so don't have any additional ships to add (the fifth F5 could not be included in the original battle force and so is not available).

There is now a single round of combat for the FFs and cripples vs. two D7s and four F5s under the pursuit battle rules, and a single round of combat for the two NCLs and FRD vs. three D7s supported by a scout under the normal combat rules. However, the Klingons can select both battle intensity ratings for the slow-units battle. After both rounds of combat, all surviving Federation ships are combined and retreat to a hex per 302.73.

How close am I to being correct?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 11:45 am: Edit

Hi John

Probably raising more questions than answering....

Pretty close (or probably correct*)

The 5th F5 can be added to the Slow Pursuit battle- as under 307.742 B - the additional ships are taken from eligible ships which could have perused.

Although I hate to say it, it does perhaps raise 2 new questions : -

Are Tow's for FRD's considered escorts? From the Exception - it appears not*, so just the initial non-persuit force (less pursuit battle ships) would be involved.

Part B doesn't refer to eligible ships - so could cripples be included. Probably not, but it is not clear.

So, in effect your answer is correct, as I don't believe any escorts have been added.

The one thing which they don't have to do though is include the uncrippled FF's in the pursued battle force - you don't have to add 3 uncrippled ships (all depends if you will lose more than just the crippled stuff)

So

Pursuit battle of 2 x D7 + 4 x F5 v the cripples (and possibly 2 x FF's - pursued player choice) and 3 x D7 + Scout v 2 x NCL+ FRD


and for whats it's worth, originally I did think the NCL's can be tasked with emergency towing of the FRD at the point of retreat - but that could fall foul of the 421.21 rule that only one towing unit (or pair) can tow a FRD during a given turn.

Example

E4 and a TGB tows a FRD next to an enemy unit - and is reacted into by 1 enemy unit. The TGB drops the FRD and continues on it's move (E4 meets the pinning requirements).

Later in the turn, 2 x D5's enter the hex and more stuff reacts in (or a reserve arrives).

E4 fights and dies - can the 2 x D5's now tow the FRD - and the answer technically is no, as another unit has already towed that FRD thus turn.

I doubt the Powers that be will want players tracking whats towed what though - and so emergency towing of FRD's out of combat would probably be permitted?

As Kevin said though - perhaps a formal ruling is needed.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Thanks Paul,

I didn't word my direction about the FFs very well. You are correct that they have the option of retreating with the cripples, but don't have to. I was just attempting to say that they have no option to be in the slow-units group.

So the additional ships referred to in paragraph B are ships beyond what was included in the original battle force - in my example the 5th F5. If in my example the Klingons had had six F5s in the hex, they could have added both of the F5s. This was the part that was confusing me the most: where the "extra" ships in paragraph B came from.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 12:43 pm: Edit

In your example, since the E4 met the pinning requirement, did the tug have to drop the FRD or could the tug and FRD have continued moving out of the hex?

Your question about the D5s is a variation of my Q2: can an FRD be towed by a tug during movement, but then towed by two cruisers during retreat?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 04:15 pm: Edit

TGB and FRD could have potentially continued (FRD can't enter a hex with enemy units) - but it was the easiest example I could think of

As the rules are written - 'no', I would say.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 06:58 pm: Edit

I'm not seeing in the example above a reason that the Fed FFs had to be with the cripples.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, December 06, 2021 - 07:38 pm: Edit

The FFs didn't have to be with the cripples. That was careless wording on my part. My intent was to note that they did not have an option to be in the slow-units battle, and thus must be elsewhere. However, "elsewhere" included being in neither battle.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Tuesday, December 07, 2021 - 11:05 am: Edit

This has been a good discussion on 302.742; I think I finally get it. However, we still have my Q1 and Q2 from above (repeated here in corrected form):

Rule 509.1-F allows a tug to be assigned to tow an FRD during step 5-7D of the Sequence of Play as part of a retreat out of a battle hex, provided that the tug has not been assigned to any other mission that turn. Rule 421.23 allows two uncrippled ships with a defense factor of seven or more to tow an FRD instead of a tug.

Q1: If a retreating force does not have a tug, but does have two uncrippled ships with a defense rating of seven or greater, can those two ships be assigned to tow the FRD during the retreat to avoid the automatic destruction of the FRD under Rule 302.742(C), even if they had not been towing it prior to the combat? Does it make any difference if the retreating force doesn't have a tug because a) there wasn't a tug in the hex to begin with or b) there was a tug in the hex, but it was destroyed by directed damaged prior to the retreat?

Q2: If the FRD was being towed by a tug prior to combat, but the owner believes that two large ships might give the FRD a better chance of surviving the slow unit combat round, can the owner of the FRD switch from having the FRD towed by the tug to having it towed by two ships with a defensive rating seven or greater for the retreat (and thus for the slow unit round of combat)? As noted above, it probably wouldn't make any difference to the FRD's chances of survival, but a situation could arise where it does.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, December 07, 2021 - 11:48 am: Edit

>> but the owner believes that two large ships might give the FRD a better chance of surviving the slow unit combat round

Does it make a difference if the owner specifically believes that? What if the owner simply believes that changing the towing ships will potentially result in a somehow more favorable combat outcome?

--Mike