True. The FRD may still die, but at least two cruisers will do more damage in return than a tug would.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, December 07, 2021 - 05:06 pm: Edit

The ships towing the FRD can be assigned at the moment of retreat; I asked and got this answer in the past.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, December 24, 2021 - 11:18 am: Edit

Rule 421.3 says that both the tug and the FRD count against the limits for strategic movement. If one (or both) of them is newly constructed, I assume it would still qualify for free strategic movement, correct? E.g., an existing tug moving a newly created FRD would only count as a single ship against the strategic movement limits.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 08, 2022 - 05:38 pm: Edit

"
By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, January 08, 2022 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Trying to understand what is the status of the Tholians on turn 28. Per 604.152, their "limited partner" status ends on that turn, and they need to get back inside their space. That much is clear. But what is their status with regard to Coalition units on that turn? Can they move into a hex containing Coalition units? If they do, is there a battle? Or can the Tholians just keep moving?

Similarly, can Coalition forces react to Tholian movement on A28?

And what about strat movement?"

Good question.

For what it's worth, I think they would go neutral at the START of turn 28 - and their forces are ignored - unless attacked.

Bases built outside Tholian space can be attacked without the Tholians defending them or getting involved (and we have a Tholain BATS and PDU in 2518 - the base can be ignored by both sides I would also guess - and recaptured if there is no Fed forces there).

If the the Tholians have used an Expeditionary Fleet - with permission it can use Allied SMN's to get back to Tholian space (and in theory Coalition bases - but they might not grant permission!).

The reason why I say at the start of turn 28, is that the Coalition could try to block Tholian forces getting back into Tholians space and bankrupt the Alliance (10 ships would be 100 Ep's....).

Of course, this is just my 2p and best guess!!

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, January 08, 2022 - 11:16 pm: Edit

I propose that any Tholian units in illegal territory (Coalition) would be interned, any in alliance territory would be counted as destroyed. This should encourage a Tholian player to be in Tholian territory to avoid these penalties.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 01:57 am: Edit

When 604.152 is invoked I propose that all Tholian units of all types outside Tholian territory be immediately removed from the board.

These units have received an emergency recall message to return to Tholian territory immediately to respond to the Seltorian arrival?

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 02:58 am: Edit

Well, the good news is we have 3 turns to sort out what happens?

Only game on the board which got past 28 was Richard's and Peter's - it just say they went back to Tholian space - how did you handle it?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 08:14 am: Edit

In Q+A, William wrote:
>>Trying to understand what is the status of the Tholians on turn 28. Per 604.152, their "limited partner" status ends on that turn, and they need to get back inside their space. That much is clear. But what is their status with regard to Coalition units on that turn?>>

(604.152) seems pretty clear to me; all it says is (essentially) "All Tholians need to be back in Tholian space at the end of AT28; the Alliance is charged an EP penalty for any Tholians not in Tholian space at the end of AT28".

The Tholians are otherwise unrestricted on AT28. They can do whatever they want on AT28 (within their regular restrictions). They just all need to have moved inside of Tholian space by the end of the turn (retrograde, etc.).

If the Tholians want to go berzerk and blow up the Klingon SB in 2318 (with their Detached Fleet) on AT28, they can do that. They just all need to be back in Tholian space (or, well, vaporized) by the end of the turn.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 08:27 am: Edit

Paul wrote:
>>Trying to understand what is the status of the Tholians on turn 28. Per 604.152, their "limited partner" status ends on that turn, and they need to get back inside their space. That much is clear. But what is their status with regard to Coalition units on that turn? Can they move into a hex containing Coalition units? If they do, is there a battle? Or can the Tholians just keep moving?>>

The Tholians aren't restricted on AT28. They just all need to be back in Tholian space by the end of AT28 (are you looking at the rules in the 2K10 rulebook?). They can fight, interact, the Coalition can react and pin them, whatever. They just all need to be back in Tholian space by the end of AT28, or the Alliance is changed an EP penalty.

>>Similarly, can Coalition forces react to Tholian movement on A28?>>

Yes. The Tholians are a regular force on AT28 with only one restriction. If there are any Tholian ships on the map, outside of Tholian space, the Alliance is charged an EP penalty.

>>And what about strat movement?">>

Why wouldn't they be able to strat move? If some Tholians started AT28 on an SMN, and had a valid strat move path back to Tholian space? They could strat move there.

>>For what it's worth, I think they would go neutral at the START of turn 28 - and their forces are ignored - unless attacked.>>

That's not remotely what the rule says. The rule says, and I quote:

(604.152): "This limited partnership status ends on Turn #28 (due to Seltorian arrival) and all Tholian ships must be back inside Tholian space by the end of this turnor the Alliance loses 10 EPs per Tholian ship outside of Tholian territory per turn until this is done."

The Tholians are totally normal on AT28. They just all need to be back in Tholian space by the end of the turn.

>>Bases built outside Tholian space can be attacked without the Tholians defending them or getting involved (and we have a Tholain BATS and PDU in 2518 - the base can be ignored by both sides I would also guess - and recaptured if there is no Fed forces there).>>

The base and PDUs are not ships. So they are ungoverned by this rule. The Coalition can freely attack a Tholian base and PDUs on a planet outside of Tholian space after AT28, and the Tholians are't penalized for them being outside of Coalition space. As they aren't ships.

>>The reason why I say at the start of turn 28, is that the Coalition could try to block Tholian forces getting back into Tholians space and bankrupt the Alliance (10 ships would be 100 Ep's....).>>

Yes. Saying it should start at the start of AT28 is completely making up a rule. The Tholians know this limit is coming (they have read the rulebook also...). If the Tholians don't want to get caught out of Tholian space at the end of AT28? Set up to avoid that on AT27.

The Coalition can't realistically blockade the Tholians from Tholian space, *if* all the Tholians start AT28 inside of Tholian space. Or close enough that if they are pinned outside of Tholian space, they can fight a round and then retreat and retrograde.

Lesson: The Tholian Detached fleet needs to start AT28 close enough to Tholian space that it can't get blockaded out.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 03:11 pm: Edit

Peter

Thanks - my printed copy isn't too clear on the relevant page (pages got stuck and seperated.....with the ink not necessarily following the paper!).


Certainly what you have said makes sense and it would require some of effort to stop the Detached Fleet getting home (but possible) - but I am guessing all 12 ship will die on turn 28... (poor Tholians!) to avoid the penalty?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 03:38 pm: Edit

Yeah, it seems *real* hard to keep the Tholians out of their home space by the end of T28; most of them can't be more than 2 hexes away anyway (and those can't be prevented from getting home in any possible way). The detached fleet could, conceivably, be caught far from Tholian space, but how far are they? Like, why aren't the within 6 hexes of Tholian space still in the first place? And if they aren't, they should be able to get back to within 6 hexes by the start of T28.

And worst case scenario, the Tholians can scuttle their ships (301.9) at the end of the turn anyway.

Like, are you in a situation where the Tholian Detached fleet is, like, off in Kzinti space or something?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 04:50 pm: Edit

I mean, maybe I've been really missing some potential, but it seems like really, the best thing to do with the Tholians from T22-T28 is just mess up everything they can within 2 hexes of Tholian space (2BATS, Major planet), and then just keep the Detached Fleet in Tholian space at the end of every turn to strike out on the Alliance turn, which gives them another 9 targets to kill (including 2SB and another few planets to capture and/or liberate), which forces the Coalition to stack a dozen ships on each of those SBs, and/or have reserves to be distracted, and prevents the Coalition from messing them up on the Coalition turn. And given such a plan, it seems pretty much impossible to prevent the Tholians from all going home at the end of AT28.

I mean, maybe sending a dozen Tholians to Kzinti or Gorn space might have some legs, but it seems like forcing the Coalition to move a bunch of ships to near Tholian space is much more productive to the Alliance than sending the dozen Tholians to some other front that is already swarming with Coalition ships anyway.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 05:04 pm: Edit

I agree - scuttling seems to make the penalty go away.

William pretty much has done what you have said - the Tholians have so far avoided 2318 - but they did (with Fed help) mess up the Romulans a bit and took 3518 down.

Playing 'Suicde Tholians' though just doesn't seem right - but there is no rule to stop it (and William did try and get this changed).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Suicide Tholians may be a bad idea if the Seltorians (with Coalition help) then go take Tholia.

The alliance doesn't want the Coalition to get those VPs, so don't get too crazy with the Tholians.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Paul wrote:
>>Playing 'Suicde Tholians' though just doesn't seem right - but there is no rule to stop it (and William did try and get this changed).>>

The Coalition can still go and attack Tholian space; if the Tholians blow up too many of their ships, the Coalition can just squash them.

Unless the Coalition really play into it, it is hard for the Tholians to burn up that many of their ships. And other than, like, saving a SB, there isn't much incentive to keep fighting the Tholians when they come out. Pin them, fight a round, retreat. The Coalition gain very little by taking damage from the Tholians, and gain very little by aggressively killing the Tholians (assuming it costs them something to do so).

The Tholians are gonna tie up a bunch of Coalition ships for those seven turns; they'll probably kill a few BATS and probably take planet 2518. They'll cost the Coalition some money, score some VPs, and then vanish.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 09, 2022 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Richard, we are playing a basic game. There are no Seltorians.

I just counted. The Tholians are down to 39 ships. Even if I were to somehow to get them down to zero, which I won't, I doubt the Coalition would have much chance of taking Tholia. Even assuming he pins out the fighters and PFs in the five adjacent hexes, Compot there will be:

SB (72) + 16PDU (16*15=240) = 312.

The Romulans are too hard pressed to send a significant force. Their nearest hardpoint is 14 hexes away (BATS 4318). And the Klingons are in no position to do it on their own. So it's not going to happen.

And I agree, my Tholian suicide strategy makes zero sense in terms of how the Universe is presented. I tried to get a rule to prevent this, and y'all didn't agree. So I feel perfectly entitled to abuse it to the max.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 12:53 am: Edit

Certainly, but the Coalition can certainly take Tholia if they have few or no ships there, at least in some games, and that's a lot of VPs (and EPs).

I think the rules don't need changing; if the alliance is doing so well that Tholian suicide is an option, the Coalition have probably lost in any case.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 03:38 pm: Edit

>> The Tholians aren't restricted on AT28.

Excellent analysis. I hereby withdraw my prior proposal and pledge to read the rules more carefully next time. :-o

As a side note, since 604.152 speaks only to Tholian ships, could the Alliance help the Tholians build a Starbase or two in strategic locations on the Klingon/Fed and/or Rom/Fed borders? After 604.152 kicks in the Tholian ships leave, but the Tholian bases (and their advantageous web defenses) would remain behind?

--Mike

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Yes, but the Coalition can blow them up without pissing off the Tholians. See (604.151).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 05:35 pm: Edit

William wrote:
>>I just counted. The Tholians are down to 39 ships. Even if I were to somehow to get them down to zero, which I won't, I doubt the Coalition would have much chance of taking Tholia.>>

How did you burn out so many Tholian ships? There is basically no incentive for the Coalition to fight hard with the Tholians, and no incentive for the Tholians to fight hard in the face of overwhelming odds (say, the Detached Fleet vs a reasonably defended SB; what is gained by letting those ships burn up other than making harder to do something next turn?).

The Coalition can simply write off the, what, 2 BATS and planet in range of the bulk of the Tholians, and make it hard to kill targets for the Detached Fleet, such that the Tholians gain nothing by fighting hard at those targets (or just kill them for nothing). The Coalition gains nothing in the long run by killing Tholians, or taking damage fighting the Tholians in even fights. And the Tholains gain nothing by suiciding ships in uneven fights.

I mean, yeah, I guess the Coalition could fight the Detached Fleet hard over a BATS or something, and the Tholians could burn up ships trying to kill the BATS, but it really seems like this is disadvantagous for both sides, and the Coalition should really just be either stoping them dead (in which case the Tholians gain nothing by fighting) or just letting them kill a BATS to avoid damage.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Peter, he recently posted in the other thread,

"In my current game, I just self-killed 8 Tholian ships in order to drag a big battle out a little longer, thereby crippling maybe 5 more Klingons. The Tholians I self-killed included 2DN.

Easily worth it IMO. The Tholian ships effectively disappear on turn 28. So who cares if they are dead?"

So, yes, he has the Tholian detached fleet fighting hopeless battles over coalition hardpoints and simply blowing up ships.

Unless he gets the Tholians down to less than 15 or so ships, there's little or no downside, so why shouldn't he do so? There is no "next turn" for things to be harder to do as far as the Tholians are concerned on turn 28, and 26-27 are pretty similar, blow up this fleet, and form another one next turn, where is the downside?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Thanks for the pointer; I missed it.

I think more the point is "why is the Coalition fighting that hard"?

Why was there that big of a battle? The Detached Fleet is small. And easily pinned, and then after a round, the Coalition retreats. As they gain nothing by fighting other than taking damage.

But ok!

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 05:59 pm: Edit

If you put a full fleet on every target within six hexes of the detached fleet, then you could pin them out.

But if you have even one major planet or SB within range that doesn't have a fleet sitting on it, the Tholians attack there, and then fight to the bitter end. Are you going to not reserve to your SB because doing so might get a few ships crippled rather than a SB detonating?

Even if you pin out, if the Tholians are in a suicide run, they fight one round, and then remain forward deployed.

Or if the Feds can reach the area (not unheard of by turn 28) then they can open the way for the Tholians to suicide run someplace by pinning the coalition prior to Tholian movement.

How many ships are you committing to be able to pin the Tholians out everywhere?

I don't think you can avoid fighting someone who really wants to fight and doesn't care about losses.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 10, 2022 - 08:24 pm: Edit

There are only so many targets the Tholians can reach during their time on the map. Most of them, the Coalition can afford to lose (a few BATS). The SBs, the Coalition can drop a dozen ships on. Make them reserves. If the Tholians go near one, they react out, fight a round, and retreat. The other reserve goes somewhere else. That's 2 dozen ships.

If the dozen Tholians fight over a SB with a dozen ships? The Tholians will get mangled very quickly, and them burning themselves doesn't accomplish anything.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 11, 2022 - 02:52 am: Edit

Peter

"I think more the point is "why is the Coalition fighting that hard"?"

We was fighting over a BATS - Tholians Detached+Federation Homeless supplied and there was a way if I won, I would have a supply line (via a Tug) to 3111 - which had a very large battered and out of fighters Klingon fleet...

Alas William didn't retrograde as expected and they remained Out of Supply (I think I also 'hoisted myself with my own petard' as some Federation had also got cut off and couldn't retrograde).

The Tholians have self killed alot to avoid crippling anything.

But the key point is - the Tholians need probably 20-30 ships left to ensure any post turn 28 attack remains too painful on the Coalition - and William has enough to do that.

100 Vp's is a lot though - and perhaps 30+ might be needed - as losing say 50 ships would be worth it - I think I overlooked it was worth the full 100 VP's? (Getting say 100 ships in range is probably the difficult issue)