FED DHD & HDD
They can be used in battlegroups but do they count as CW or DW?

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Unless overruled by ADB, Battle Group qualified Federation HDD and DHD hulled ships are treated as war cruisers in Battle Groups due to their size.

FEDS SENDS.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 30, 2022 - 11:28 am: Edit

Feds have a squadron of better fighters at an SB, per (502.95). Then the third way comes along in earnest and "doubles" its fighter complement (502.91). The question is whether the (502.95) squadron now becomes two such squadrons, or whether a normal squadron is added. In other words, is the ending fighter factor of the SB 26 or 28?

We are playing with the basic game only.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 30, 2022 - 02:41 pm: Edit

William, it would be 26. 1 Squadron of F-14s (8) and 3 squadrons of F-18s (3 x 6 = 18).

The number of F-14 and F-15 squadrons is specifically limited to 3 squadrons each with a maximum of 1 per location.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, January 30, 2022 - 07:55 pm: Edit

Another 3rd way question. About CVBGs, the rule says:

(502.921) These included two carriers, each with the normal number of escorts. (This could include single-ship carriers with newly-assigned escorts. All ships in a CVBG must be Federation.)

What about a single-ship carrier without any escorts? Two examples:

CVA+CVL+2NAC+FFE, or
CVS+TGV (i.e, carrier tug)+DE+FFE

One might argue that zero is a normal number of escorts for either a CVL or a carrier tug. But I'm not sure whether or not that's the intention of the rule. In the carrier tug case, there would then be the further question of how many slots the CVS+carrier tug+DE+FFE group takes up.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Friday, February 11, 2022 - 01:39 am: Edit

If I can't put a foreign base in the same hex as a current base if the fleet is unreleased (600.321), does that mean that I can't put a Lyran MB in the Klingon capital until Turn 4?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, February 11, 2022 - 11:11 am: Edit

"Bump" on this outstanding question: By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, January 28, 2022 - 05:01 pm: Edit. Thanks!

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, February 11, 2022 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Am I correct in interpreting the rules to believe that the Lyrans can get BBs by conversion in 1 turn even if (436.26) is not used?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, February 11, 2022 - 07:37 pm: Edit

Ahmad - The Lyrans aren't allowed into Klingon space on Turn #1, they are allowed after that. Remember that your ally's Fleet status doesn't matter (to you).

John C - nope, they're supposed to get a discount as they still have to build the center part of the hull (instead of 9 EP on four turns, it's 7 per turn to account for the 8 spent previously on the CA). For the regular way, it's either dropping the 40 needed down to 32(?) or getting 2 extra die rolls for converting the CA ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 11, 2022 - 07:47 pm: Edit

You cannot put a foreign base in an inactive area atop an existing base. This means you setup a Lyran MB in 1411 prior to the Klingon Home Fleet being activated. Generally in my games I solve this issue by putting a Lyran tug in 1411 and having it act as a supply point (sending it there on turn two) and just set up an actual base when allowed.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, February 11, 2022 - 09:49 pm: Edit

Richard, in your second sentence, did you intend to say "you cannot setup"? The overall tone of the reply suggests that the word "cannot" was inadvertently omitted. Otherwise, there would be no issue to solve.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, February 12, 2022 - 02:45 am: Edit

Stewart, I believe you. It didn't sound right. Do you have a rule to site, or is it forthcoming?

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, February 12, 2022 - 07:09 am: Edit

John C, see partially quoted rule below on the Lyrans and Turn 1.

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Quote:

(601.1611) During Turn #1, there are no restrictions on the Klingons except that they cannot leave their territory (and only new production ships can leave their fleet deployment zone) and their Lyran allies cannot enter their territory.

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By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, February 12, 2022 - 09:45 am: Edit

Stewart, that rule is for another question. Mine was about Lyran BB conversions.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, February 12, 2022 - 07:41 pm: Edit

John C - (436.26) says one can spend 1/4 of the total EP per turn, the SIT give the CA>BB conversion as 28, 28/4 = 7 ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, February 12, 2022 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I meant cannot, sorry.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, February 13, 2022 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Stewart, (436.26) refers to construction, not conversion. I think you are correct, but the rules for major conversions (433.12) do not limit the maximum size of any major conversion.

Per the rules as far as I can find and interpret, the Lyrans can pull a crippled CA to their Capitol and get a BB in 1 turn if they have the EPs available. The rules as I read them allow this, and no rule I can find prohibits this.

Even if (436.26) is not used, (433.12) says that the Lyrans convert a CA to a BB. The rules are not further defined or limited. By the rules the Lyrans can have a BB in one turn.

For the record, I think this is an abuse of the rules until it's confirmed to be accurate.

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Unless overruled by ADB, conversions of battleships cannot be completed before the Year-in-Service date listed on the SITs or as specified by rule. While some battleships are permitted to be produced via "conversion" from a smaller hulled ships, these conversions still fall under rule (436.26) and still requires the expenditure of no more that 25% of the discounted conversion cost per turn (or a minimum of three points each turn). Conversion of existing battleships to other battleship variants of the same base hull type can be completed in one turn. All battleship conversions must be conducted at a starbase or stellar fortress in the owner's capital shipyard hex.

FEDS SENDS


Rule Reference:

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Quote:

(436.26) OPTIONAL: With mutual consent, players could be allowed to buy battleships directly. The cost is shown on the Ship Information Tables, with a maximum of 25 percent of the cost and a minimum of three points paid each turn. (Turns must be consecutive.) The fighters (if any) cost extra and are paid for when the ship is finished above the 25 percent limit. Battleships do not count against the carrier limit; BBVs and SDSs (which are in an expansion) do count against the carrier limit.

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By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Sunday, February 13, 2022 - 08:11 pm: Edit

I've got a retreat question. It's not urgent, though it might come up this turn.

As the Hydrans, I currently hold 0617 and 0718, and nothing else in Hydran space. It's possible (though not certain) that I will have a valid supply path through 0518 to the Old Colonies. Assume that I do have that path.

Suppose I retreat from 0617. As 0617 does not count for supply for this retreat (it's fallen if I retreat), I can choose to retreat to 0518 by (302.733C) because 0718 is only a partial supply grid.

Q1: What if I do a partial retreat? At that point, 0718 is part of a main grid (presumably, because I still hold 0617), so I must retreat there. Is this true?

Q2: By (302.134), if any units withdraw all retreating units must go to the hex chosen at that time. But (302.723) says that partial retreats are "separate from the more general retreats covered by (302.7)". Does this restriction also apply in the case of partial retreats?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, February 13, 2022 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Q1: You would have to go to 0718 because it is part of a main grid at the time of retreat. Any argument to the contrary pretty much means you are throwing away the retreat priority rules and are in undefined territory.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, February 14, 2022 - 12:40 am: Edit

John C - where did you read that? (436.26) is for 'buying directly' which would include construction or by converasion.

The rule is that it's 25% of the cost shown in the SIT per turn, that covers both by construction or conversion.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 14, 2022 - 11:19 am: Edit

Retreat Priority - 302.73

In effect, the question is 'the intention of the retreat rules, to allow a force to oscillate between a full and a partial supply grid?

An example might therefore be easiest : -


Example Battle in 2507

2708 is in a Coalition Partial Grid
2306 is in a Coalition Full Grid


Battle is fought in 2507... and Coalition retreat towards 2708 (electing to include Partial Grid Hexes) and beat up some ships in 2607

They then retreat back into 2507 'heading towards 2306' (as they exclude the Partial Grid which is closer) - beating up those same ships in 2507.

They then retreat towards 2708 (by not excluding Partial Grids) and repeat....

Doesn't happen very often (and the enemy might retreat) - but including and then excluding Partial grids doesn't sound right.

Is the intent of the rule that once a side has decided on which supply source to retreat towards - it would continue onto that Supply Source (unless that supply source was captured/moved etc - as that could happen)?

(Noting changing the Flag might get you to retreat in a different direction, but at least that would be more limited).

With regard to the example

Neither 2306 or 2708 are retreated from - and therefore the supply source 'retreated hex' exclusion never happens.

But 2507 isn't a supply source and as far as I can tell, there is nothing to stop you retreating back into where you retreated from?

i.e. Priority 3E only excludes the hex being counted as a supply source - and does not say you can't retreat back into it.

Priority 3C allows you to exclude or not exclude Partial Grids and so Priority 3D allows you bounce between the two grids -as if you can keep the Partial Grid Equal or Closer than the Main Grid, you can always retreat in either direction. (If you get closer to the Main grid, than the Partial Grid, that would stop the ability to retreat towards the Partial Grid).

I can't see any reference to saying once you have excluded Partial grids, you have to exclude it in the same retreat chain, in the following retreats.

So, should the inclusion or exclusion on partial grids in effect apply for the entire retreat chain (like 3E imposes) - i.e. once a decision on whether they can be included is done, it can't be altered until any of those ships involved cease retreating?

(Note - as partial support to this interpretation is the partial retreat rules from Capitals - you have to go to the same hex each time).

Thank you

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, February 14, 2022 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Stewart, it's in (436.2) COST OF CONSTRUCTION (copied and pasted). Not a word written in any of the (436.2x) rules mentions or implies conversion.

In (433.0) there are (433.12), (433.15), (433.16), (433.17) which cover major conversions, and define them as costing 4+ EPs without upper limit, but do not limit the amount the Lyrans or anyone else may spend for converting a CA to a BB in a given turn.

Even (431.376) specifically mentions BBs which implies the other rules are to be read as written without further inference as BBs were not forgotten.

In addition, there are base conversions which can cost far more than 7 EPs, so there is a precedent for large EP expenditures for those single turn conversions. To be fair, the words "upgrade" and "conversion" when referring to bases seem to be interchangeable, and not limited to bases of the same size or to changing the size. Also, since each base upgrade step takes one complete turn, I'm not aware of any rules permitting base upgrades to be paid in amounts less than in full. I also see no point in doing so as it ties up a tug for more turns and gives the enemy more chances to interfere with the upgrade. It's better to save up the EPs and do the conversion quickly.

The Lyrans, and LDR, seem to be special, and possibly undefined, conversion cases since they are the only ones who can convert CAs/DNs to BBs.

Also, since (436.26) is optional how would the Lyran CA to BB conversion be handled if (436.26) were not used?

Again, I agree with you about the spirit of the point, I just cannot find even so little as one word in the rules to support it.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 - 02:56 am: Edit

Given that 436.2 is about "cost of construction" but 436.26 simply refers to buying, conversion != construction, except when it does? I mean that for the Lyrans, converting a CA to a BB is how they "construct" one. Sometimes words that have a general meaning (construction) can be mis-applied when they're also used as "key words." I personally think that due to some poor word choice, both interpretations are definitely debatable, but IMO common sense dictates that it's 7 per turn for 4 turns for a Lyran to convert a CA to a BB.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 - 04:06 am: Edit

I strongly suspect that the intent of the Lyran BB conversion is NOT to give them the ability to produce BBs in one turn when all other empires must take four or more turns.

Step back and think about it.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 - 07:12 pm: Edit

All ships in this game are direct purchase, even the conversions as they all take one turn. Battleships take four turns under direct purchase by (436.26) or more when using (436.2) as the fewest turns would be seven.

Also, since (436.26) is optional how would the Lyran CA to BB conversion be handled if (436.26) were not used?

The Lyrans would get some many points to start with (say 8 as the CA parts are already present), or the Lyrans would get 2 addition die rolls on their initial purchase (again for the pre-existing CA parts)...

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 - 04:16 am: Edit

Please keep all discussions of rule questions out of this topic; discussions of F&E questions can be conducted in the Q&A Discussions topic. Thank you.

FEDS SENDS