How many Hydran FRD's escaped off map...

.... and rather than 'Years' - it is easier for the Hydrans to say how many new non-Alpha Quadrant Alien Invasions will occur (i.e. similar that hold Sol quote of how many Ice Ages will it take for X to happen ) before their fleet is repaired?

Which begs the question - is the new Shipyard or repairs the priority?

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 11:28 am: Edit

Ted,

Do you have a listing of units that fought the first round over the Hydran capital itself (not approach, if there was any). Thx for posting!

--Mike

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Both FRDs had previously been evacuated offmap. The Klingons did TWENTY rounds of 12DBB.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Correction to Richard's info: The Klingons did TWENTY-*FIVE* ROUNDS OF 12 DBB!

@Mike: Here is the first round at Hydrax major (there were 5 earlier rounds with a similar line during which the outer planets were stripped and devastated - approach was declined):

COALITION LINE: C8+ADM(CMD) BC TGA+AL TGA+AL C5 BC DN+PT DN+PT TGC+2*KBP D6M D6S D6S LAV(Form) D6S(FS) 3*D6D(DB) SAF = 150 Compot 14ew

HYDRAN LINE: (static) PAL(frm,flg,adm) MON(V) LB LM(PT) 3RN LAV SB Hydrax
(mobile) LB LM(PT) 3RN TG(SP,FRS) = 207 Compot 5 EW


The damage exchange was as follows:

On rolls of 2/3/3 at a base BIR of 5, I (Coalition) do 38, you do 41 (Alliance).

Coalition direct instructions: Maul the MON-V to death for 9. It's 6 fighters bring down the damage another 6. Take 23.

Alliance direct and damage application instructions: *Take 3 to Hydrax's RDF, 9 to Hydrax, take 10 fighter factors (replace 5.5 from FCRs), cripple a RN for -7 next round. rn will retreat to 0517. *Fleet is down 11.5 fighter factors (from FCRs). *Take 41.

Coalition damage application instructions: 41: Cripple D6M (10), 12 fighters (22), cripple 2*BC (42) and -1.


Post Combat Resolution Rolls:

-No capture.

-SAF rolls "3" and scores 2 SIDS. (This would be something like the last SIDS done until something like round 15 or thereabouts, they were dribbled out until the very end when the abandoned SB went down like a rock on round 26).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Just for fun, here is what was NOT crippled at the end of the capital assault:

HYDRAN: PAL, TG+A, 2*LB, 2*LM, DG, CR, 3*FCR, TG+0, FLG, 2*APT.

KLINGON: 2*TGA+AL, 2*F5L, F5, 7*E4, CVT, D5V, 3*D6V, 2*AD5, 3*F5E, E4R, 4*D6D, D5S, 3*F5S, E4S, D6J, 2*F5J, D6G, D5H+N, 2*F5G

LYRAN: 2*CC, 8*FF, CLS, 2*DWS, SC, DDG, LTT, 2*FFT, F5L, 2*FTS, 2*FHL, LAV, SAV

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 10:57 pm: Edit

The Lyran LAV died.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, February 25, 2022 - 10:40 am: Edit

@Richard, thanks. I'll update the map.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, February 25, 2022 - 11:27 am: Edit

Thx Ted that's an interesting and thorough readout. Huuuuge EW advantage for the Coalition.

What is this abbreviation for: TGA+AL

Also, curious as to the Coalition strategy of not SIDSing down the SB ASAP? Seems like the Hydran SB had lots of extra rounds to sling damage at the Coalition?

Or perhaps the strategy to try to keep the Hydrans engaged as long as possible so as to inflict as many casualties upon them as possible, knowing they will struggle to repair/replace ships once forced off map?

No judgements here, your game, your strategy. Just a curious spectator.

--Mike

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, February 25, 2022 - 12:01 pm: Edit

TGA+AL refers to the Klingon Tug-A (8 compot/defpot). The AL designation refers to the missions from the rules. In this case it is one combat pod and one drone pod (resulting in a 12/4 (1)) unit with a 10 command rating.

Using SIDS to take down a SB is inefficient. Spending 18 damage points to do 4.5 damage points is costly. Even with a mauler, it's inefficient at 9 vice 4.5. That damage does hurt the Hydran navy, as identified above.

Generally speaking if I have gone in with sufficient reserves to take down any opposition at a SB assault I do not use SIDS. I simply let the damage fall (unless I'm there to do something else, like kill cruisers) and then let the Alliance decide if they're going to take cripples (which can be hard to repair at a reduced economy) or quickly use up fighters and SIDS and watch the base go down.

One exception is when I have enough reserves to take the SB, but not enough to outlast the defenders. Then I will SIDS kill the SB as rapidly as possible and then retreat. This costs me a lot in terms of dead and crippled ships and much lower Alliance casualties, so it is not preferred - but when that SB "just has to go" that's one way to do it.

Another partial exception is when the opponent takes 4-6 SIDS *voluntarily* - or if I get lucky with SAFs and/or G ships. Then I will direct SIDS to cripple the SB and then one shot the crippled SB with a mauler. This can save damage int the long run.

I could have done that here and probably saved considerable damage to myself. However, Richard was demonstrating a clear willingness to just keep taking damage for the opportunity to dish it. Yes, I'm hurt, but IMHO the Hydrans are hurt a lot worse. Their economy is a wreck and a very sizeable fraction of their navy is crippled, including the bulk of their heavier units. In contrast it will take me only 2-3 turns to completely clear the cripple backlog, and the only real opportunity cost will be a somewhat slower pace on infrastructure (e.g., building a SB over the now renamed New Klinshai....)

I have never seen Richard do this before. Typically he fights hard, but not THIS hard - he usually likes to keep the Hydran fleet strength up and then use that strong fleet as a permanent threat that reduces pressure on the Feds or increases pressure on the Lyran home systems.

Richard is a very good player, so I'm certain he has perceived an advantage to fighting hard - but I was happy to cripple his fleet. We'll see how much effect that will have on this game!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, February 25, 2022 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Edit: Richard will repair those ships and rebuild the Hydran navy - it will just take more time and heavy depot use.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, February 25, 2022 - 10:42 pm: Edit

Thx Ted, nice commentary. I usually refer to that kind of tug as TGA BP/DP, but to each his own. It's a very useful tug combo for sure.

It will be interesting to see how these combat decisions over the Hydran Capital play out as the game unfolds. Perhaps Richard has a new trick up his sleeve? Or perhaps you do. :-)

--Mike

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, February 26, 2022 - 11:36 am: Edit

If there is a new trick, it's Richard's. I was following "standard doctrine."

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 02, 2022 - 11:09 pm: Edit

"Which begs the question - is the new Shipyard or repairs the priority?"

Why not do both? I'll build a medium shipyard for 8 EP a turn, plenty left to pay for repairs, build new ships and do conversions (plus I'm sure to utilize the depot).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 02:49 am: Edit

Richard - had forgot about the Medium Shipyard... but things will still be tight

SB and 2 x FRD could blow 22 Ep's a turn in repairs.

A CU at the SB is 2.5 Ep's.

Hydran economy is probably in the low 20's ?

Spending 8 Ep's a turn on the Medium Shipyard is certainly easier to squeeze in than up to 15 ep's though - and Depot will reduce the long term cost (and thats probably a good use of a cripple CR!!!!) - so the choice isn't too bad, but not ideal?

But - I wouldn't want to put down many RN's and HR's through Depot - those fighters are needed now

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 10:43 am: Edit

I've run some numbers. The Hydrans can and will repair their navy in 4-10 turns depending on whether they use ADS, build a medium yard vice a full yard, whether they build any new small ships, etc.

IMO it's totally worth sending a few heavy ships (especially CCs) through the depot, and then repair and upgrade (using CDR) the DGs to LBs - very cheap and effective. The TRs and FFs are also depot grist.

One thing the Coalition has to be careful of in a situation like this is not to leave too little behind while the Hydrans rebuild their navy. With a big ADS bolus the Hydrans can repair many ships all at once and then suddenly out-pin the Coalition and do some real damage.

The problem with the strategy (from the Alliance side) is that it does buy me a few turns where, if I'm careful, I can send more ships to the Fed front to get a temporary advantage there and then capitalize on it.

I guess we'll see. What is done is done.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, March 13, 2022 - 04:14 am: Edit

In the Hydran theatre, the Coalition destroy the two remaining BATS and capture 0519 (killing a MON here).

At 0416, things go a lot less well for the Coalition. They send a weak battleforce of around 10 ships which gets pounced on by a strong reserve.

The Coalition selfkill an SAV and three small ships to avoid possible pursuit, crippling (by directed damage) a THR in return.

The only fight in the Kzinti theatre is 1401. After one round of combat over a devastated major, the Coalition kill 18 fighter factors, an RDF and cripple a couple escorts or something but lose a DN and some fighters. They then retreat, having rethought this attack.

***

The Coalition withdraw their cripples in the Hydran theatre, put a reserve at 0411, 0718 and five reserves in the Kzinti theatre, ignoring the Kzinti diplomatic protests at this act.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 14, 2022 - 08:32 pm: Edit

*A6 SY171 other alliance powers' eco:

*Federation:

*Old treasury 6 DIP:
*A5 income: 1910(3 DIP EP) 3415(3 DIP EP) +DIP INCOME(3EP) = 9 DIP EP.
*A6 expenditures: CL->LSC(4EP) CA->TG(4EP, mothball), 5DD->5DE(5EP, 2 in mothball), CA->CC(7th Fleet, 2EP)
*PWC: [CVA+ECL+2xDE], 3xNCL, 3xFF, FFS (First Fleet)

*A6 new treasury. 0 DIP.

*Gorn:
*Initial treasury: 5DIP EP.
*Income: 3DIP(Midketh) 3DIP EP.
*Production(PWC): DN, HD, 2xBD (Home Fleet).
*Conversions: (4402) CL->TG(4).
*New Treasury: 7DIP EP.

*Tholians:
*Production: 2919:
DP PC.
*Conversions: 2919:
PC->DD

*No neutral planets change status.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 14, 2022 - 08:34 pm: Edit

*Start survey total: 59.
*Survey roll: 6+2(PT)+1.
*New total: 68.


*Treasury 6.83EP, 0FFF(end of A5 eco).
*A5-C6 borrowed: 0
*A6 Wyncovia = 10.5 (start).
*A6 trade rights =5 (start)+6 (new) = 11.

*A5-C6 Salvage: FFT(0.63).
*A5-C6 DBB 1.2EP(1401 A6) = 1.2.
*A6 start turn treasury: 6.26 EP.
*A6 debt at turn start: 15.7 EP.
*CPs: 1.

*Income:
*On map (outside capital hex): 4 (1401 1702 1801 1704 -disrupted) + 3 (Dmitris)= 7.
*Off map: 17+6 = 23.
*Capital: 5 (Kzintai) + 6(3 dev major) + 4(4 dev minor) = 15
*Captured nz: 0.
*Captured provinces: 0.
*Captured planets: 0.
*Other income: 4(DIP).
*Total income: 49EP.

*National debt: 15.7EP.
*Borrowing limit: 10.
*Interest payment: 1.57EP.
*Current treasury balance: 52.79,12FFF.


*Production:
2.5 FF(sub DN)
2.5 FF (sub BC)
24 4MEC(sub 4CM)
17 FFK FKE 4FF(one OM one 1704) (sub 6FF)
0 Activate PT
2 Callup POL (1302) FLG 1401.
0 (OM) MSY-CM#1(ENG)-T3
----------------------------------------
48 Total


*Conversions:
5 EP, 6FFF (1401) BC->CV
1 EP (1704) FFK->FKE
-------------------------------------------------------
6 EP
*Repairs:
8 (1401) 2MEC FKE 2EFF
-----------------------------------------
8 EP

Depot
BC CLE enters depot
-----------------------------------------------------------
62 Total

*EPs Borrowed: 9.31.

*New Borrowing Limit remaining: 0.69.
*Current debt: 25.

*Treasury: 0EP, 6FFF.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 14, 2022 - 08:38 pm: Edit

A6 ODM Hydran eco

*Old Survey: 44
*A6 Survey roll: 4 + 2 + 1
*New Survey Total: 51.

*Previous Treasury (A5 end eco): 0EP 0FFF
*C6 salvage: (LC RN HR LN CU 2PGS MON-V MON LAV SAV FTL FTS LAS 2FHL ) 20.5.

*Income: 1.5FFF, 8 EP(Onmap) 17 EP(Offmap) + 4EP(survey) +5 (Guild treasury 1/6) = 0FFF 34 EP.
*National Debt: 21.04EP
*Pay interest: -2.1EP
*Borrowing limit 10.
*Pay debt 7.5.
*Extra exhaustion turns: 1/2.
*Current Treasury: 46.9 1.5FFF

*Production:
5 FFT CU(OM 0215)
8 Med SY (turn 1 of 6)
5 CP
2 FLG(callup)
5.4 Refill FCP.
Free POL Callup(0215) PT
----------------------------------------------------
25.4 EP

Conversions:

Repairs:
1.5 EP SR (OM)

Borrow EP.
Borrowing limit remaining: 10EP.
Treasury at end eco: 20EP, 1.5FFF, 1CP, 13.54EP debt.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, March 14, 2022 - 08:40 pm: Edit

Hydrans do not raid (they remove 2HR PTR from the raid pool).

Kzinti raid with DNL, BF, FFG. FFG disrupts a Kzinti province, DNL raids 0906, attempting to destroy a G2 but failing. The captain will get demoted to command an LCS. The BF disrupts province 1107.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, March 16, 2022 - 09:19 pm: Edit

In operational moves, the Kzinti theatre, the Kzinti send a small force to dislodge the four ship picket at 1401 and a 99 compot carrier force to bully pickets in western Kzinti space.

6CV and a SB then fighter strike 1502, followed up by most of the remaining Kzinti fleet (the Coalition react over a ton of ships from 1403).

***

In the Hydran theatre, the Hydrans avoid engagement, turtling up over SB 0215. They send 4 EPs to SB 0215. Most crippled Hydrans without fighters go offmap, most of the rest to 0215.

***

The Coalition send good reserves, one to 1001, two to 1502. The Kzinti lose an FFT (captured), kill a FFT and at 1502 they offer approach, it is declined, and the Kzintis retreat to 1401.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 18, 2022 - 06:53 pm: Edit

During retrogrades, the Kzintis send about thirty percent of their ships to 1704, leave 50% at 1401 (where they have a SB and 16 PDU) and 20% to make two strong reserves offmap.

The Hydrans make modest reserves in 0215 and offmap and otherwise stack most of their ships at 0215 (a lot of cripples go offmap, but a lot don't.

The Coalition are set up for a strike on the Fed 3rd or 7th SB. They have a lot of ships in the Kzinti theatre (but not in range of 2204). The Hydrans are pinned out from 0617 and the Lyrans have decent defense of 0411, though the Hydrans could possibly take it if things are left as they are.

Apart from the reserve below, 0215 is defended by SB PAL BT 2LGE 2LB 2LM DG 5RN TR 5HR 6CU 3HN FFT 3FCT TG(FCP) PGS SC 5POL PV 2FLG FTS LAV 2SAV SAS and a bunch of crippled ships (for even more fighter factors). Killing SB 0215 will be expensive.


*Treasuries:
*Kzinti: 20EP 6FFF. 1CP. Wyncovia: 1.54 WYN trade rights: 10.31.
*Kzinti national debt: 25.69.
*Hydran: 1.5FFF. 1CP. 1/2 turn penalty toward exhaustion. 4EP at 0215.
*Hydran national debt: 13.54.

*Reserves:
Fed:
4th (2204): ADM PT BT DN CC 3CA 3NCL 3DD SC
Kzinti:
1st(offmap): 2PT 3CV 3MEC 2FKE EFF FCR CLD
2nd(offmap): FFK 3CV 4MEC 2EFF SF
Hydran:
1st(offmap): 2KN 3LN CU
2nd(0215): ADM MMG 2PT TG(BP) 3KN SA HN GRV LNG SC

185.5 fighter factors in 0215. 65 SEQ of just ships for 95.5 SEQs.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, April 04, 2022 - 01:05 pm: Edit

CT7 Eco:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2o3ea6citfu8t96/Coalition%20Klingon.xlsx?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxceqh9pz8d0a8g/Coalition%20Lyran.xlsx?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4dpleqr6nunxave/Coalition%20Romulan.xlsx?dl=0

Highlights:

We have decided to use the new rule 537.11. This has resulted in MAJOR consequences to both eco and strategic play, because the way the rule is written the following consequences are mandated (assuming that the rule must be ready to select two different ones of the list of required units to prevent automatic rebellion).

Short version: Must have two of PDU, IGCE, or G-ship in orbit. In this game that as read as being two different ones from that list. Note that an IGCE cannot be purchased without a PDU or PGB being built first, and laying down one of those takes at least a turn. Therefore, any planet AUTOMATICALLY goes into rebellion on the turn of capture (because you cannot have two separate units from the list of named units in 537.11).

This has some profound consequences.

1) The Coalition MUST spend *a minimum* of 4 EP per captured planet (3 for a PGB, 1 for an IGCE, and then have a G ship in orbit) to derive income from a captured planet (otherwise, the planet goes into auto rebellion and will not derive income).

2) Planets in rebellion are valid targets for reserve fleets under the new rule (which is necessarily going to happen on the first turn of capture for the above-reason).

As a result scores of EPs will be spent to derive meager income with a substantial ROI - and additionally *ONLY A FEW* planets that can be ACTUALLY HELD over many turns will get the required anti-rebellion units. Otherwise, the Coalition will spend, turn after turn, many EPs to try to garrison planets that will frequently change hands as the Alliance drives off picket forces.

In this particular game, because it's an ongoing game, we decided to allow me to retcon and hold some of the Kzinti captured planets. However, the Hydran capital went down on CT6, and it is now CT7. Therefore, all planets in the Hydran capital have gone into auto rebellion, as I will not be able to lay down PGB/PDU (and then purchase IGCE) until CT8.

It also means I had to put out a HUGE bolus of cash to pay for PDUs. The Klingons spent 45 EPs in PDUs and IGCEs it otherwise would not have built, and the Lyran spent 24.

Ask me how happy I am about the new 537.11 rule... I would have rather lived with all the die rolls.

Summary:

Klingons:
-Current debt: 111 (35 this turn to help cover the massive cash outlay for PDUs).
-Construction: 118.5
-Repairs: 45
-Conversions: 19
-BB's: 10
-Minor Shipyards: 10 (with 4 under construction)
-BB#1 at 13 (rolled 2 this turn - horrible rolling overall). BB#2: 5 (first roll).
IWR Activated.

Lyrans:
-Current debt 65 (ditto)
-Construction: 64.5
-Repairs: 39
-Conversions: 10
-Minor Shipyards: 15 (5 under construction)

Romulans
-Used DIP income to convert 2*SP->2*FH and WE->KE

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 04, 2022 - 01:37 pm: Edit

Ted, how happy are you?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, April 04, 2022 - 02:08 pm: Edit

537.11

That seems rather 'interesting' - I can't see how having every planet automatically rebel after being capture, being good for the game?

At best, Coalition will capture 1 or 2 planets per turn - and keep huge fleets over them on their turn to avoid a reserve turning up to kill the PDU/PGB being deployed and tug.

In effect, it would force the Coalition to keep doing Homeworld Assaults to try to keep reserve fleets going to help these rebelling planets.

Saying that - it does mean the Coalition will be alot weaker.... and the Alliance will suffer the same effects later in the game as no doubt the Alliance Counter attacks will occur sooner.

Is the intention neither side captures enemy planets (other than a key 1 or 2) and they use MB and Convoys to get supply to the deeper areas into enemy space?