Archive through May 09, 2022
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through May 09, 2022
You're reading too much into it. The "carry over" is not a weapon fired today that affects a ship in the next battle. It is more nuanced than that. It means things like using up spare parts, fuel, ammunition, and the nervous stomach acid of the enemy commander. The fact that "plus points" carry over to the next battle is NOT RELATED to the rules that the reserve cannot be hit. There is no contradiction.
>> On the retreat priority question
Ted, this is a really nice writeup. This kind of analysis of an extended example I think really helps to explain complicated rules.
--Mike
Thanks! I'm glad it was of help!
>> It means things like using up spare parts, fuel, ammunition, and the nervous stomach acid of the enemy commander.
Respectfully Steve, doesn't it amount to the same thing?
The overage damage is still ultimately being applied to units which were not in the original battle force. Those damage receiving units were in the reserve at the time the overage was generated. It is just sleight of hand to wait until the next round's battle force is formed to apply the overage. One could just as easily apply overage damage directly to reserves if the original battle force is completely destroyed.
--Mike
Not really. If you retreat instead of fight, the lost spare parts and fuel and stomach acid got replenished.
To be clear, the rule is correct and logical as it is and will NOT be changed.
Sorry SVC, I don't know what your answer is.
Example 1 :
Kzinti BC, FF, CVE+EFF, SF forces attacks a minor planet which has 1 PDU on it left, in 1411 (while a main force attacks the Capital Planet - and so they expect the Coalition not to defend it) - and the Klingons decide to send their main mobile forces to defend this minor planet.
Coalition does 50 damage - the line can only take 42 damage though.
What happens to the 8 damage not resolved if the Kzinti attack that planet again?
What happens if instead of staying, they retreat after that battle round?
Example 2 - (Chucks example) - Deep Space battle.
2 x crippled B10's and a crippled E4 gets jumped on and just the E4 fights and the Alliance does 16 damage in the battle - so leaving 10 damage not taken.
B10's retreat and get caught - what happens to the 10 damage not taken?
Thanks
Paul
The rulebook answers that.
SVC
The rulebook states the owed points ARE carried over....
...but Chucks 2013 ruling stated they are ignored (i.e, NOT carried over).
(Ruling posted here)
"By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Monday, April 22, 2013 - 01:07 pm: Edit
I'll restate this:
The intent of plus points is to carry over damage points that COULD have been given up (but was not) to resolve damage but did not meet the REQUIREMENT where the remaining number of unresolved damage points is less than half of the smallest defense factor of the remaining units in the Current Battle Force.
The damage absorbing player must have a remaining unit in the current battle force in order to carry-over any plus points into a following round battle (or pursuit).
Absurd example for illustrative purposes:
Three crippled ships (B10-, B10-, and E4) remain to enter the first round of battle verses a Hydran fleet of PGF and 11xHN.
The Klingon selects the E4 to face the Hydrans and exclude the 2xB10s as unchosen flagships; the crippled B10s have no part of this battle round.
The Hydrans manage to score 15 points of damage; the crippled E4 does no damage.
The E4 is destroys leaving 13 points unresolved.
The Hydran player cannot claim there are 13 plus points available to take into a following standard battle round OR even three points into a pursuit battle round BECAUSE there are NO remaining units from the current round that could have taken the excess damage but did not meet the minimum damage requirements.
FEDS SENDS"
So in the B10 example - the excess owed points are cancelled out - and hence the confusion.
Chuck's ruling should stand. Please let's not change rules back and forth multiple times.
This was handled a long time ago. (In case you don't understand, the phrase "the existing rules" or even "the existing rulebook" includes all updates and rulings.) I would rather spend my time doing new products than re-re-re-redebating issues long resolved. Now, I assume that is in the core rulebook which hasn't been updated since (2010?) and when it is updated I will review every update one more time and confirm 99% of them and discard anything bad that slipped in. However, I am NOT going to do that on the fly when in the middle of other projects.
However, there is one point to consider. This ruling was in 2013. Has it been reprinted in Captain's Log since then? If not, then you might argue that (1) FEAR forgot to put it into his input for the next issue and it should have been or maybe (2) Steve Cole reviewed the ruling and rejected it (meaning it hasn't had force since the CapLog after it was posted). Let's start with someone checking which Captain's Log (or two) came after the posting date, and do those issues repeat the ruling or make any comment about rejecting it. If that is not the case, the next step is for FEAR to check and see if he sent it to me or not.
But that kind of review is a VERY different thing than asking me to overturn the ruling itself. If I already did, I already did (at a time when the entire staff would have given it a deliberate review). If I did not reject it then, I will not overturn it now. If it was not submitted to me, then we have another question.
From Jeff Wile posted in "why" section:
"Would older technology tugs (W or Y) be able to deploy middle years technology PDU’s?
IIRC the YIS date of the TT Federation Tug is y135, while the middle years PDU modules (ground based phaser 4, for example and other rule R1.14 and R1.15 ground stations ) YIS 120.
I assume a tractor beam is required... is there a minimum power level for a tug? In other words, we know the regular tug can deploy a PDU, but I can’t recall if a theater transport could handle the job of installing a PDU.
For that matter, a Theater Transport couldn’t move an entire PDU by itself(and move at a speed faster than a convoy). Could a military convoy(one with better/military engines) rendezvous with a theater transport to deploy a PDU?
Just curious!"
I found this in the 2010 F&E rulebook:
"(509.1-K1) Deliver PDUs/PGBs: A tug can be assigned this mission (508.32) during the Phasing Player Turn at the moment it begins Operational or Strategic Movement. One LTT can carry one battalion. Groups of theater transports can perform this mission (509.22). The transport is subject to (308.453)." This covers tugs, LTTs, and theater transports.
Although it is not a hard and fast rule, I am understanding that an LTT is about half a tug, and theater transports are about 1/3 of a tug. There are exceptions to this thumb rule, and combining different sizes of tugs makes this thumb rule less than mathematically accurate which is why I used the word "about".
I found nothing in the rules which allow convoys or military convoys to move or deploy any ground bases. I am happy to be corrected as that will improve my understanding of the rules.
It has been added under (414.6) that a (military) convoy can move, or set a PDU (also to be added to the appropriate (509.1) rules) ... CL #52 pg 107 ...
Stewart, thanks for the correction. Currently my rule books are either digital or small enough to carry with me to work (where I have more time to read them than at home). My collection of CLs are currently stowed away for the time being.
"
By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, April 27, 2022 - 12:14 pm: Edit
After rereading (511.22) I'm curious. Recognizing the extremely low chances of its happening, can the Tholians conquer planets and receive the production per (508.2)?
Nothing I can find prohibits this or would require a “first servant species”."
John - no - you missed last sentence of 511.223.
The Tholians return those planets to 'dust'.
The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbVvsFneS64
Paul, I did not miss that sentence, and my question didn't limit the Tholians to just the Lost Colonies. Nevermind the how, what if the Tholians managed to capture the planet in 2518? What then?
John
Sorry - wrong question answered!
Yes, the Tholians can capture planets outside Tholian space - but outside 2518 in effect you would need to use the Expeditionary Fleet rule - and so the requirement to garrison the planets would be difficult.
Plus unless they Coalition stop them going neutral - the Alliance will have less value for them from turn 29.
So yes can be done, but not ideal!
A major planet has a single crip parked at it. It is late war and the planet has 4 squadrons of fighters and 2 squadrons of PFs. The defending player would like to preserve the crip. I'm pretty sure this can't be done in a base battle. But what about the approach?
And if the defender can offer an approach battle without using the crip, how much do they have to include in their battle force for said approach?
The defender can decline the approach battle and risk nothing. See (302.22) as the attacker is the one required to offer the approach battle.
Thomas
What we are getting at is, when can Fighters/PF's be used to generate a block - noting 302.26?
303.77 Gives Fighters/PF's a Command Rating of '3' if they are the only units in the hex.
Which isn't quite 'correct' - as what happen if a normal BATS or SB accepts an approach battle and uses just the Fighters or PF's in the approach battle?
So what legal forces can be created by :-
A+C or B+C
A: 4 x PDU (with 24F)
B. BATS (with 6F)
C. Cripple Ship
Approach Battle>
18F from PDU's or 6F to 18F + Crippled ship
6F from BATS or 6F + Crippled Ship
Base Battle
4 x PDU +or 4 x PDU + Crippled Ship?
A Base Battle with just the BATS is possible though - and the crippled Ship can be an Unchosen Flagship.
The two issues are 'crippled' ships are not Unchosen as they are just excused and so the Minimum Force rule would require the ship to be included?
i.e. If you have a single ship and no other Flagship, the minimum force rule may require it to be included (accepting the approach to generate ship equivalents to cover 302.36 requirement).
(The only way the crippled ship might otherwise survive is to use the Withdraw before combat - but a normal pursuit in effect applies, as the base doesn't block it).
Didn't matter for the battle - the brave D7 stayed and the defenders took down a Federation FF before the planets was smashed.
Paul, I was only replying to the first of William's questions. The first one was also worded incorrectly because the attacker is the one who is required to offer the approach battle.
As to the second of William's question I'm not sure as I haven't looked at the various rules more closely. One of the things that can be done would be to exclude the cripple as an unchosen flagship candidate because it is crippled under (302.32). It would be excluded from minimum force rules as you have excluded it from being a flagship.
Thomas
The 'issue is' (and my brain can still go to mush sometimes) is that the crippled ship appears to be the only valid Flagship - as PDU's can't be used.
I think we may believe excused and excluded flagships are not the same, for minimum force sizes.
Excused can be used by any crippled ship (but doesn't affect minimum force size)
Excluded can be used by up to 2 ships and it can effect minimum force size.
Honest answer is probably not to send crippled ships to a planet without any other ships going ... always send them to a MB/BATS/SB (as they can be the Flagship) 
Now if said planet had an existing PRD one might be inclined to send cripples there. Still to your point having a RESV in range at minimum or sending along a cadre of uncrippled units might be best.
FYI
Per rule, PDUs have a command rating of ‘0’.
Chuck
PDU's can never serve as Flagships and don't need a Flagship (303.4)
So they can't allow the crippled ship to escape via the Rejected Flagship rule