PDUs can be flagships and unchosen flagship candidates (302.32) may be excused may be excluded from minimum force requirements:

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Quote:

(302.32) FLAGSHIP: Each player secretly selects one of his units to be the flagship of the Battle Force. (A base can be a flagship, but is still treated as a “non-ship unit”.) This must be one of the three units with the highest Command Ratings. (If four or more units have equal Command Ratings and this rating is the highest, any of them can be used.) Crippled units may be excused from this selection process at the owning player’s option, but the three highest-rated non-excused ships are known as the “flagship candidates”.
Note: There are cases in which an inferior force wants to do as little fighting as possible since it wants to avoid casualties. The player controlling such a force would naturally want to exclude as many “good” ships (important ships that are expensive to replace) from the battle as possible, but still must have a valid flagship. Units with a Command Rating of zero may be used as flagships (if they are one of the three highest rated) while units with no Command Rating (marked “NA” or “—”) can never be.

(302.36) MINIMUM FORCE: The Battle Force must include at least half of that player’s ships in the hex (round fractions up) unless the Command Rating of the flagship cannot control that many units, in which case the player must use the maximum number of units it can control in the Battle Force. Unchosen flagship candidates (302.32) may be excused from this calculation at the owning player’s option. Independent fighter/PF ship equivalents cannot account for more than half (round down) of the Battle Force unless there are not enough ships present to make up their required portion, in which case use all of the ships (if any) and see (303.7). See also (512.2) Tholian webs.

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By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, May 09, 2022 - 09:13 pm: Edit

One key question though is can the fighters accept an approach battle while leaving the crippled ship out of the fight.

If we fight the battle at the planet, while leaving the crippled ship out of the battle, then it's likely that the fighters and PDU's will all be destroyed in one round. The crippled ship would then be pursued and killed with ease.

But if we can accept the approach battle with just the fighters, they the crippled ship can then retreat between rounds of battle with the PDU's preventing pursuit.

So, can the fighters accept approach, leaving the crippled ship out of the fight as a unchosen flagship?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, May 09, 2022 - 09:26 pm: Edit

303.4 appears to be in contradiction with 302.32. From 303.4:

(303.4) PLANETARY DEFENSE UNITS
PDUs and PGBs‡ cannot serve as flagships (and don’t need
a flagship). If combat takes place at the planet (or capital sys
tem), the defenses of the planet are included in the Battle Force
but do not count against the Command Rating.

So PDUs both can (303.32) and cannot (303.4) be flagships.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - 02:27 am: Edit

Ahhh - I wonder if when Command Ratings was amended from lots of units having '-' to '0', the '0' comment about it about it being a Eligible Flagship was added, but the Specific Rule about PDU/PGB's wasn't amended (either in error or on purpose).

As it stands though, I believe the General Rule of '0' being a Eligible Candidate is trumped by the Specific Rule of 303.4?

Edit - also found 302.323 which invalidates the original comment about a FRD being used to hide two crippled ships.

So part of the rule change/clarification does make sense.

I'll post the upper part of this in the Q&A.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - 11:34 am: Edit

Sorry, brain is getting back up to speed.

'Question' for the Gallery.

Can a FRD either Self move or be towed out of a hex, which has been reacted into?

Example
Gorn FRD is in 4911.

Gorn DD and 3 HD's are in 4910

Romulan 2 SK is in 4912

Nothing has moved or reacted : -

First operational move is the Gorn DD goes into 4911... and the 2 Romulan SK's declares a reaction into 4911 and declare the DD and FRD 'pinned'.

As far as I can tell in the rules, the FRD could become unpinned and then move - the fact it is a 'Slow Unit', does not affect movement.

Correct?

Or should the fact it is a slow unit, effect it's ability to be dragged out of harms way?

(Hasn't happened and probably will not happen (but could!), but just something which my brain thought about when flicking through the rules).

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Well from the rules posted it seems the general rule about 0 command rating units would be trumped by the specific call out that from these 0 Command rated units, PDU/PGBs cannot. So no rules contradiction really as it is clearly defined.

Chuck's statement saying they can is not a ruling and not correct because he forgot the specific rule eliminating them.
William's statement is also incorrect (though less so) because of the same points (and he understood the second rule eliminates them).

(One more one-handed edit: ...And upon further reading its all been captured in the proposed update)

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Paul, that would depend on whether the rules use ship or unit when talking about unpinning ...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 - 12:11 pm: Edit

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Quote:

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Wednesday, May 11, 2022 - 09:18 am: Edit

524.12 defines the CPF as the mech links and supplies fitted to "standard warships"

524.221 lists the types of units that may not be included in carrying a CPF

Given the specificity of 524.221, I'd think many "non-standard" ships can carry CPF; basically, everything not in the list of 524.221.

Which suggests that a carrier and its escorts can contribute to carrying a CPF. The CPF obviously still counts against command limits. Am I interpreting this all correctly?

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By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, May 12, 2022 - 03:31 am: Edit

A simple look at a typical Lyran carrier or escort SSD shows that they have mech links...

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, May 12, 2022 - 07:26 pm: Edit

But Chuck, the Lyrans put mech-link on almost every ship they own, so they're not typical when talking about mech-links and CPFs ... .

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Friday, May 13, 2022 - 09:15 am: Edit

Simple look at SFB material yes, but I don't have that handy and this is supposed to be a different game ;). Thanks guys, I really just wanted a corroboration I was interpreting that correctly and you gave me that. Back to the campaign...

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 - 02:22 pm: Edit

>> Clarification for FO rule (515.332)

Interesting observation. The difference in these calculations (if I have them correct) would only appear to affect scouts and drone ships with AF between 2 and 4 used as ad hoc escorts. For Specialist ships with AF of 5+, the two different calculation methods appear to return the same values.

My personal recommendation would be to use the (af/2 rounded down) specialist ship method across the board for both regular warships as well as specialists functioning as ad hoc escorts. The difference is small, and I prefer having a single, simpler calculation method.

--Mike

emp	uclss	type	full_afct	spec_ship	reg_ship	diff
K	D6M	mauler	10	5	5	0
L	STT	mauler	10	5	5	0
R	FAL	mauler	10	5	5	0
R	KRM	mauler	10	5	5	0
F	NCD	drone	7	3	3	0
K	D6D	drone	7	3	3	0
K	D5D	drone	7	3	3	0
R	SPF	mauler	7	3	3	0
R	SPC	scout	5	2	2	0
K	D6S	scout	4	2	1	1
Z	DF	drone	4	2	1	1
L	CWS	scout	4	2	1	1
L	DWS	scout	4	2	1	1
F	NSC	scout	3	1	0	1
G	HDS	scout	3	1	0	1
K	D5S	scout	3	1	0	1
R	SKF	scout	3	1	0	1
F	FFS	scout	2	1	0	1
F	SC	scout	2	1	0	1
G	BDS	scout	2	1	0	1
G	SC	scout	2	1	0	1
H	NSC	scout	2	1	0	1
H	SC	scout	2	1	0	1
K	F5S	scout	2	1	0	1
Z	SF	scout	2	1	0	1
L	SC	scout	2	1	0	1
R	K5S	scout	2	1	0	1
R	SE	scout	2	1	0	1
T	SC	scout	1	0	0	0

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 - 03:44 pm: Edit

I read this differently than Mike (and Lawrence) in a way which I believe resolves the ambiguity.

"(515.332) The following types of units, if used as escorts, lose their special abilities: SFG‡ units, scouts, maulers, ground combat ships‡, and drone ships. These are treated under (515.34) and lose one-half of their offensive value."

By saying "these are treated under (515.34)" the rule is saying that specialty ships are not treated differently from other ships. The statement that they "lose one-half their offensive value" is true, but trivial given that since they are treated under (515.34) they lose 50% (rounding up) or 3 AV points, whichever is more.

Nothing in 515.332 suggests that specialty ships ONLY lose 50% of their value. The last sentence merely restates the general rule of 515.34, it doesn't replace it.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 - 07:12 pm: Edit

I would point out the way in which a specialty ship is treated is the specific rule and is referencing back to the general every other ship rule (except it’s different). You are making a leap by assuming the rest of the sentence is included without saying so. All I am asking for here is to make it clear.
I agree one standard way is best usually but there are examples in this (and other) game(s) where it makes sense to have exceptions.

Also the fact that two players read it differently beg for a clarification eliminating the interpretive room.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, May 23, 2022 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Seeing that you folks had so much fun discussing RESV moves back in 2019 I have been elected to ask the following.

SITREP: F169 - Turn A3; Hydran Theatre.
The Hydrans knowing the history of their neighbors, fearing for their future, and seeing the military build up on their Eastern and Northern borders decided to 'make a move'.

The Hydran attacked the Klingon's in Hexes 1010, 1011, & 1112. The Klingons also created battle hexes at 0913 and 1012 by reacting fighters outwardly from the BTS in 1013 & 1011 respectively. The Hydrans also used a good portion of their Home fleet to secure 0913 to ensure they would not be cut off.

The Lyrans having 2 RESVs (11 SE each) at the EB SB (the 3rd RESV is up north against the Kzinti) decided to send help. Looking at options, hex 1010 their RESVs would not be able to help if the Hydrans wanted to smash the PDUs and would be out of position for CT4 counter attacks if the Hydrans walked away (so they ignored that location).

So the option they want is 0913. The Hydran fleet 36 SEs vs 6 Klingon Fighters.

Lyran RESV #1 - 11 SE intends to move to hex 0913. This is done via 0513 and NZ 0613, 0713, 0813 to the intended. There is nothing in the path blocking its movement.

Lyran RESV #2 - 11 SE. The Lyran player now predicts in a future supply check, that the current situation they just created will potentially put L-RESV1 out of supply from BTS fighters blocking the NZ path back to Lyran space. Using this future supply check they intend to unblock their future supply situation by sending this RESV to 0714 and attacking the Hydran BATS and PV+POL.

Alliance doesn't believe this can be done because:
A) All Lyran forces were in supply due to the AT3 previous check (the one that matters and completed at the start of OpMove) so all Lyran ships are in supply for combat.
B) This action (of attacking the BTS) does not ensure future supply can be achieved...NZ retreats are allowed and the POLs can go to either 0613 if the Lyran do not retreat or to 0713 should the Lyrans go to 0613-0614 closer to their own supply. IF anything is allowed regarding future supply we think RESV to 0713 is their only true option.
C) RE: L-RESV1; L-RESV#1 (already established as being in supply for the OP-RESV move and combat) has no problem hitting the forces in 0913. The Lyrans shortest RESV path (without engaging enemies 203.74) to 0913 is through the NZ. Once they arrive, their shortest potential supply path from 0913 is to MAJ 0810. Rule (203.732) exception #2 does not apply.
D) RE: L-RESV2; Once L-RESV1 is in position at 0913 the 2nd RESV might be able to make a case however, "The moving Reserve Fleet could have as its objective a hex which is not a Battle Hex, but which contains enemy units which are blocking a supply path [see (411.0) and (410.22)] to friendly units in combat, which otherwise would be out of supply during the ensuing Combat Phase." so since we already established the ally Klingons fighters are supplied and all Lyran forces also passed the supply check at the beginning of the turn they will not be out of supply Op-RESV moves or combat.

If they want to move they can with the second RESV also select 0913. We do not see an option to be able to attack the Hydran BTS with the RESV (or even an option to stop in the NZ @ 0713).

As the elected researcher, I put this here in discussions rather than the official spot because I am not quite sure which rule to ask about. I found many ruling and and discussions about RESVs but none that definitively say the above is possible. If it is, please cite the rule and I can request a ruling. We don't play again until next week.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, May 23, 2022 - 05:11 pm: Edit

I don't believe this reserve movement is possible because the Coalition cannot eliminate the supply path for the relevant supply check which is "during the ensuing combat phase." For the purposes of permitting reserve movement, there is a supply path through 0912-0911-0810 anyway, so the "other" potential supply path is irrelevant and no reserve option exists to open a merely alternative supply path.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, May 23, 2022 - 08:43 pm: Edit

Yeah thats what we thought...just found out that in the Klingon Capital there is an active Lyran MB...the West Fleet at 1214 actually provides yet another path to supply at the moment. The Kzinti during this turn's Combat may kill the Northern Lyran MB at 1307 reducing Lyran Northern supply and cutting a support line to this Capital MB but that is a different kettle of fish guts.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 12:42 am: Edit

There cannot be a Lyran MB set up in the Klingon capital on turn three, as it is an inactive area until the Home Fleet is activated.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 01:58 am: Edit

Thanks I will remind the Lyran it’s his third game.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 02:54 am: Edit

Lawrence

Easy answer is to take up 'brain surgery' while riding a Bucking Donkey....

....but reserves going to re-open supply lines, IIRC was answered 'yes, you can do it'.

Certain things (Drone Ships for example) need an active supply line to be used - and to avoid Drone Races being able to dump ships onto random enemy bases/ships wasn't wanted.

So if you send a reserve into a battle which will put it out of supply next turn, you CAN send another reserve to a legal hex to re-open a supply line.

Personally, I don't like it and suggested it shouldn't be allowed (your actively putting yourself out of supply**, so why should you benefit from it???), but thats what the ruling was.

** - Weirdly, it was also all to do with the Hydran Front on turn 3 - basically, Lyrans and Klingons cross over reserves covering 413 and 1013/1213 and it allowed them to attack a Hydran BATS as they put a Klingon/Lyran Reserve OOS over a Lyran/Klingons base.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 07:14 am: Edit

Paul, cite a specific rule # or ruling for your statement:

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Quote:

So if you send a reserve into a battle which will put it out of supply next turn, you CAN send another reserve to a legal hex to re-open a supply line.

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By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 10:32 am: Edit

Thomas

Original ruling was back in 2005 : -

(Page http://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/19171.html?MondayDecember1720070344pm#POST622717)
Jimi LaForm:

Alliance T3
Hydrans hit Lyran space ignoring Klingon space and hit 0413, 0212 and 0411. The question is, can the Klingons (that have 2 reserves at 1013) move one reserve to 0714 (hydran bats non combat hex prior to reserve movement) so that the second reserve can move to 0413 and be in supply of 1013?

The Klingon player is moving reserve 1 to 0413 (which puts his reserve out of supply) then moving reserve 2 to 0714 re-enable supply to his reserve 1.

ANSWER: That looks legal to me. The move to 0413 is legal and moves and puts friendly forces out of supply. That allows the move to 0714 since it contains the units blocking supply (203.731).


and

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 03:29 pm: Edit


Nick - I don't think my 'appeal' was ever answered.

(situation involved Reserve Fleet A deliberately moving out of supply to allow Reserve Fleet B to move to an otherwise "out of bounds" hex under (203.731).)

ANSWER: This one was upheld by SVC, the tactic is legal. Rule (203.732) shows that each reserve fleet's movements are sequential, not simultaneous. See Cap Log 32.

There was various discussions in 2008 and 2014 - but I can't see that it was ever changed - closest we got was : -

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 01:27 am: Edit

As FEDS I am not going to support any interpretation of this rule where in an "F&E + any given module" environment one can make some claim of being out of supply for Reserve intervention and have that same situation not apply in basic game or another given module. In the same breath, there should not be an advantage for having a drone ship in your fleet vs. not having one.

In my mind this is a straight up issue (this is not YET an official FEDS ruling):

1. Are enemy units blocking all supply paths to friendly units in combat (which are not stacked with valid friendly base) at this very moment?

2. Would the dispatch of one or more reserve fleets to one or more of the locations of blocking enemy ships open a supply path to said friendly units in combat? [Note that supply can flow through a battle hex under (411.2).]

How does this test above not meet the intent of (203.731)?

Does the above test work the same for all empires, under the same conditions, and under any combinations of F&E module usage?

...which evolved into this?


By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Tuesday, February 03, 2015 - 10:22 pm: Edit

FEDS CLARIFICATION ON MOVEMENT OF RESERVE FLEETS

Ref:

Quote:
(203.731) The moving Reserve Fleet could have as its objective a hex which is not a Battle Hex, but which contains enemy units which are blocking a supply path [see (411.0) and (410.22)] to friendly units in combat, which otherwise would be out of supply during the ensuing Combat Phase.


Check-list on how to apply (203.731):

1. Are friendly units involved in combat? Y/N (if Y then continue);

2. Conduct an IMMEDIATE supply check on the combat engaged friendly unit(s) (regardless of its presumed supply status for battle). Do the combat engaged friendly unit(s) have its supply path blocked to a main grid by enemy units? Y/N (if Y then continue)

3. Would the dispatch one or more reserve fleets open an immediate and valid supply path to a main grid for the combat engaged friendly unit(s)? Y/N

If all three questions are answered affirmative then the player attempting to send reserves to a valid hex(es) is permitted to do so.

NOTE: Rule (413.1) specifies that there are two kinds of Supply Grids: Main (or regular) Grids are connected to the capital or off-map area; Partial Supply Grids are not and are covered by (413.4). In some cases, a given empire could have one Main Supply Grid connected to the capital, a second Main Supply Grid connected to the off-map area, and one or more Partial Supply Grids.

=============

FEDS OPINION: It is bad for the game to have a core rule (i.e. sending reserves to save out of supply units) that works one way in basic set but then works differently depending on which F&E module is being used. FEDS also finds it equally disturbing to have a rule that works one way for one empire but differently if the empires where swapped but under the same circumstances.

FEDS SENDS

It MAY have been published in a Captains Log as a rule clarification/change??

....but I can't see any comment after 2015/2016 that it was (and I don't have the more recent CL's).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 10:36 am: Edit

To avoid cluttering the 'answer' - from reading some of the posts and from what I remember, part of the issue in resolving the 'potential issue' was different Empires and different rule modules.

If - if you just play the basic rules - the 'send a reserve out of supply' could be used by the Feds/Kzinti/Klingons - as Drone Ships need supply at that moment - but everyone else only needs supply at the start of the turn.

If you play with Salvage - everyone needs supply at the point of combat.

And it got even more confusing

So a single rule is required for everyone/all rule modules.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 12:00 pm: Edit

I think the issue here was that the battle in question isn't actually out of supply because - while the reserve route is an interrupted supply chain from 0913 to 0411 - the supply route from 0913 to 0810 is uninterrupted so any supply check during reserve movement or at the moment of combat comes back positive so there is nothing to "reopen."

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, May 24, 2022 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Backing up a bit the Klingon reminded me of the following Rich:

(600.32) UPGRADES: The ships, but not the bases, of an inactive fleet can be converted at the starbases in that fleet’s area if the empire is on Wartime status. Ships from other friendly fleets can enter the area to use repair/conversion facilities.
(600.321) A new mobile base could be established in that area but could not be upgraded [exception to (433.413)]. PDUs can- not be deployed or upgraded in the area/provinces of an inactive fleet, but can be stockpiled. Mobile bases assigned to inactive fleets cannot be set up until the fleet is released, but a newly built MB or an MB from an active fleet could be brought into that sec- tor and set up. No more than one MB may be built in each hex of an inactive fleet area. An ally could set up a mobile base in the area of an unreleased fleet, but could not upgrade it and could not build it in the hex of an existing base to include a mobile base, of any other empire.

So the Lyran MB can be placed in the Capital.