The value of PDU is roughly quadratic with their number.

I haven't looked at your map, but if the Kzinti have only 4 or less PDU, I might just go for ships to defend the SB and for the long slog of counterattacking from off-map while the new shipyard comes on line.

The Hydran capital, with a denser fleet and more PDU to start with should probably max PDU, but the Kzinti just aren't going to build up enough to matter. Get your repairs in so you'll have a fleet to support the SB till it dies.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, April 27, 2022 - 11:12 am: Edit

Well, opportunity costs.

The reason you might want to buy the PDU is that with 8 PDU and only 1-2 maulers for the Coalition (and only about 4-5 12 point ships between them... the Coalition lost 5 DN and a mauler on CT4 and multiple maulers CT3), the Coalition might actually have some trouble killing all the PDU efficiently, and walking into the starbase fight with a max line under 100 is a recipe for disaster. I need to look at his fleets again to see exactly what there is that will be repaired for CT5 ...

On the other hand, the 28 EP buys you (assuming the original plan was to build CV (for BC) and everything else downsubbed to FFs per "you can sub anything with an FF"):

18.5 points of repair (something like CC,MEC,FKE,2xFFK, and 4 and 6 point ships and escorts.)
+
[7 Upgrade of 2 frigates to MEC builds on the schedule.
.5 Upgrade of 1 frigate build to FFK
1.5 Upgrade of 1 frigate build to FKE]
or
[9.5 Upgrade an FF (the DN build) to a substituted CV [6 FFF]]

...or some combination of all that.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, April 28, 2022 - 11:57 am: Edit

Actually, given that the Kzinti were skipping frigate builds just to get the 28, this may actually get reconsidered just to avoid losing the permanent SEQ. I gained a lot of ships last turn but I don't want to backslide.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 07:18 am: Edit

"[The exception. In hex 0705, the Lyrans had a single CW. Our view was that it had to be on the line, so the Kzinti killed it. The interaction with a base defense and fighters isn't 100% clear, however. So if not, the CW will live.]"

Normal force construction applies.

So you to select a Flagship - which is either the BATS or crippled CW.

CW can be excluded as it's crippled - or via the normal Flagship exception rule - and the minimum force then applies (which allows you to include or exclude exlcuded flagships) - so the CW doesn't have to be included.

The only issue is if it's NOT used, the attacker could select both BIR's - and getting 21 damage to kill the BATS - would have then allowed the Kzinti to attempt a pursuit on the crippled CW.

So, defender needs to think - will the attacker get 21 damage (2+ on BIR 8 with 68, noting EW might might it a 3+ needed) or hope the defender can do some damage by some other means (if there are fighters present)?

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 02:48 pm: Edit

If I remember the rules correctly.... (doubtful)

Big fleet approaches BATS with crippled CW. Attacker offers approach (required), defender says yes, and sends only the fighters from the BATS to fight the approach battle.

Fighters die inconsequentially, but that's the end of the round, so crippled CW retreats and attacker cannot pursue because there's this BATS still in the way.
2nd round sees BATS die, but CW lives.

Paul, can you confirm? Or has my years away from the game dulled my senses?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 03:14 pm: Edit

I always have trouble with the difference between "ships", "ship equivalents" and so on.

I thought that because there was only one "ship," if the CW was the only eligible ship for the approach, if an approach was accepted it would have to fight?

Because there has to be a flagship for the approach and it can't be the base because it is an approach?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 04:36 pm: Edit

The fighters have an assumed command rating of three for such situations. It is perfectly legal for a hex with BATS(6) cw(crippled) to send just the fighters to an approach battle and retreat the cw behind the base so it cannot be pursued.

Note that the defender does NOT have to accept an approach battle, ever.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Richard:

I don't think so, because 303.7 provides that the command rating is three only when "the only friendly units in the Hex are Fighters/PFs." If there is a cripple in the hex, it is still a friendly unit.

Or at least, that was how we reasoned it out...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Even so, clearly they have that assumed command rating if they are the only units in a battle force. Think of the case of two BATS in a hex with their 2 squadrons of fighters, but no other friendly units.

Are you arguing they can't send both squadrons to the approach battle because there is no eligible flagship? Clearly this is absurd, as there are many examples in SFB of independent fighter strikes.

Clearly if you took this to Q&A, the question would be resolved in the way I have stated. YMMV.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 05:52 pm: Edit

I think probably so, but can't the base serve as a flagship even if it is not in the battle force. I believe that per rule 303, the base can serve as a flagship if it is in the hex (but can, and must, be in the BF only if it the battle takes place at the base).

So maybe the base can shield the CW while the fighters fight an approach (the CW is an excluded flagship), the CW retreats, and then the base (probably) dies alone?

Independent fighter strikes are a different thing, right? This is just the fighters being used independent of the base, and it has to be possible (just as those fighters could jump out a hex in reaction movement).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, May 02, 2022 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Flagships have to be in the battle force. If you don't think so, you can try Q&A. Good luck with that! :-)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 03, 2022 - 02:33 am: Edit

If my brain was fully working, I might be able work it out.

Crippled unit's can be excluded (rather than excused) - which means the CW doesn't have to be the flagship - but from what I remember, as its not excused it does count towards minimum force size.

Don't have time to do a Keyword search on 302.31 - but what I remember the minimum force requirement DOES distinguish between Excused and Excluded.

So a BATS (with 6 Fighters or 3 PF's - or combo to get to an equivalent) and a crippled CW could accept the approach battle ands use the Fighters/PF - and not exclude the CW - as although that does meet Flag requirements, it does not meet the Minimum size equivalents.

So worth checking previous Q&A's on 302.32 (as we/I might have got it wrong)?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, May 05, 2022 - 02:32 am: Edit

Well, we're going to assume one way or another the CW can retreat before being targeted, so there is a CW in 0706.

And on to CT5 (probably Saturday).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, May 10, 2022 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Well, terrible things happened to the Coalition in 1401. They waltzed in thinking they would capture - or at least down the Starbase - this turn, but eventually turned tail without touching the Starbase at all, due to one-sided dice (as you can see from the spreadsheet in the game thread, after outrolling the Alliance on the little fights, the first four rounds in the Shipyard went 1-5, 1-2, 3-5, 2-6 (with an autokill) which dampened their enthusiasm. Sticking around for eight more rounds would have been possible, (they had a lot of ships!) but accepting that many cripples would have been an invitation to disaster on AT5 and potentially the breakdown of the offensive. As it is, they killed all the remaining PDUs, directed a TCB (which is, at 20 EP, irreplaceable) on the line, and fled. No doubt they will be back.

The Alliance saved devastated planets 1001 and 1105 but let 1502 go; there was the possibility that the Alliance could save 1502 with both reserves, but doing so would have committed the Kzinti to fighting hard against another high quality fleet, crippling even numbered ships for odd-numbered ships at some point... in the end the choice was made to embarrass the random collections of ships on 1001 and 1105 and leave 1502 to its fate. The sole remaining Kzinti PDU anywhere is the one sitting on Zimdars (1202).

Trent is pretty philosophical about bad beats, which is good; one nice thing about F&E is that while the rolls feel crushing at the time, the scale of the game is such that you mostly don't lose on the spot. The Coalition is still very much in the game (and even have another capital assault coming this turn).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 - 07:29 pm: Edit

Thoughts on Alliance Operational Movement on Turn 5

Well, the Kzinti are screwed. The Coalition is a little short of CR 10 ships (especially with the Klingons) but they can put up lines like:

DN/adm/form + D6S/sct + [Klingon carrier group] + [Lyran BG] + some random thing or maybe a mauler and get close to 100 COMPOT which is more than enough to reliably SIDS the starbase over the shipyard. After which... are the Kzinti really going to fight in open space down probably 20-30 COMPOT?

[Well, I mean, maybe they do, if by that point they have 100 fighters that need to be given up effectively and they can trade 100 fighters for 20 excess Coalition cripples. But they are not going to be trying to win... 20 cripples is a drop in the proverbial bucket.]

But if, perchance, the Coalition is a little light and the dice are friendly, the Kzinti want one more turn of production if they can get it. So they will have the fleet in 1401.

Meanwhile, the Hydrans are faced with combined Lyrans and Klingons for the first time, with a Lyran MB going up in 0914. They do not have the SEQ to get in and kill it, nor do they have the ability to batter down 0411. So Hydran operations will probably be pretty dull unless the Klingons react out of 0914 for purposes other than simple pinning.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, May 18, 2022 - 09:59 pm: Edit

I would be surprised if the Coalition could SIDS down SB 1401 and then still have superiority over the Kzinti fleet, presumably most Kzinti ships of note would be at 1401?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, May 19, 2022 - 10:53 am: Edit

Well, my plan is to have the entire fleet, less six ships who are for some reason still more concerned that the Feds might invade, in 1401. I haven't been able to build more DNs, but I have 2xDN, 2xDNL, TCB (the second TCB went last turn), a couple CC's, several BC's, and eight CV's, although not all of them have modern escorts.

The problem is that the Coalition can cripple 50 ships SIDSing and then still have as many active ships as I do.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, May 19, 2022 - 11:43 am: Edit

A MON-V is generally worth the investment at 1401....

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, May 19, 2022 - 01:02 pm: Edit

They would be, but in this game we aren't using Monitors. So that's a thing that matters to the defense of Kzintai.

I mean, sure, the Coalition fleet will be demolished, and I'll be able to retake 1401 on AT6 in all probability if I spend my EPs fixing ships, because I'll be able to burn all the fighters again. But if the Coalition wants to finish the job, there's nothing stopping them doing so, I don't think, apart perhaps from another string of bad dice.

They may even be able to drop damage on 1401; the question is whether spending 8 rounds SIDSing is worse than spending that many rounds killing exclusively fighters.

Still, taking a Capital CT6 and retaking it CT7 is fine for the Alliance; the recapture is free (because the Kzinti are likely to defend 1704 and 1802 rather than 1401 if there are no fixed defenses) but taking a capital this late means the Feds get less pressure.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, May 19, 2022 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Sure. Also don't forget that losing the Kzinti capital gives them tremendous freedom due to the size of their offmap zone. It's a nightmare for the Coalition, in the long term.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 - 11:26 pm: Edit

Well, it's interesting you say that, Ted.

Entering CT6, the last turn before the invasion of the Federation (we assume), the Coalition can (maybe? probably?) take 1401. However, there is an argument for not doing so, simply because if the Kzinti have to defend 1401 on Turn 7, it makes it really hard to also defend 1704 and 1802. On the other hand, Turn 6 is Y171S, which means if the Kzinti produce, they get to make and convert MSC's for the first time, which will make attacking more difficult, not less.

So it's interesting that 1401 is a real tactical liability right now as well as a big strategic benefit.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, May 26, 2022 - 01:33 am: Edit

Map as of the end of AT5 (I think maybe the COMCON move got reverted at some point, it should be in 2003, and is on the map as it exists on our screen at home.)

MAP [END OF AT5]

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, May 29, 2022 - 03:14 pm: Edit

A bit of a status report at the beginning of CT6.

The Coalition hasn't held a lot of territory through to its turn (although they denied the Kzinti and Hydrans a lot of EPs), and are in attack position within 6 of both capitals with both empires with full supply, but haven't got advanced support points inside enemy territory.

Ships, per the Empire Ships tab which counts Auxes (this is just ships, ignoring fast ship bonuses and the fact that a bunch of Klingons are still in IWRs and Mothballs):

Klingon: 417 (and 136 fighters)
Lyran: 162 (and 30 fighters)
Kzinti: 157 (and 169 fighters)
Hydran: 128 (and 193 fighters)

The Coalition is prepared to take the Kzinti capital (Probably? There's still a Starbase...) and destroy 0716 and do some other mischief this turn, or to go straight to 0617 if they so choose (although there are 13 PDU on Hydrax now...). But they also need to get ready for CT7 and the invasion of the Federation (if they are going to do that).

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, May 29, 2022 - 03:36 pm: Edit

>> and some various supercool Lyran escorts which don't lose offensive COMPOT

A man after my own heart!

--Mike

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, May 31, 2022 - 01:25 pm: Edit

>> In the capital, approach was (predictably?) declined and the Coalition went straight for the shipyard.

Can you post the initial lines for Alliance and Coalition?

--Mike