Archive through June 06, 2022
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through June 06, 2022
Graham
You may be looking at the wrong hexes?
Example used was
Lyran Reserve in 411
Klingon Reserve in 1013
Hydrans attack 413.
'Everything' pre Reserve movement is in supply.
Klingon Reserve goes from 1013 to 413 (a legitimate Battle hex).
Coalition player then says 'the Klingon Reserve Fleets does not have a valid supply line because 714 blocks it - and so the Lyran Reserve in 411 can go to 714 to open the supply line to the Klingon fleet in 413'.
So one side can manipulate the Out of Supply rule to allow them to attack hexes which originally were safe (and other then 'X-Ship Reserve Movement', there is nothing the Attacker can do).
OK?
From Lawrence's original question:
So the option they want is 0913. The Hydran fleet 36 SEs vs 6 Klingon Fighters.
Lyran RESV #1 - 11 SE intends to move to hex 0913. This is done via 0513 and NZ 0613, 0713, 0813 to the intended. There is nothing in the path blocking its movement.
Lyran RESV #2 - 11 SE. The Lyran player now predicts in a future supply check, that the current situation they just created will potentially put L-RESV1 out of supply from BTS fighters blocking the NZ path back to Lyran space. Using this future supply check they intend to unblock their future supply situation by sending this RESV to 0714 and attacking the Hydran BATS and PV+POL.
The battle hex in question is 0913 and the Lyran reserve is coming from 0411. The question is whether or not "supply" to 0913 can be opened up via a "reserve attack" on a Hydran BATS. It is my position it cannot because supply to 0913 is open from 0810, regardless of the availability of a supply route on the line the reserve actually traveled.
I don't think the question actually asked is a hard question.
I agree that in the absence of the supply route to 0810 the question might be different, and that the question also might be different if Klingon supply to 0413 were the issue.
Hi Graham
Sorry missed the example hexes from Lawrence.
The answer though is there is insufficient information to give an answer 
But - assuming 1010 and 1011 have ZERO Coalition ships in (and assuming there is no other supply source/route through Klingon space etc) - hex 911 is blocked and cuts the Lyrans in 913 off from Lyran supply (as bases can only cut supply, they can't re-open supply in adjacent hexes - 411.32.) via the Northern route and 714 cuts supply through 713 for the Southern route.
So as per the rules, 203.731 COULD be used to send a Reserve Fleet to 714 or 1010/1011, to allow supply back into 913.
The fact the Hydrans might be able to re-cut 913 off from supply during the combat phase, doesn't matter - it's all down to whether the reserve re-opens supply after the Reserve Movement phase or not.
(By using the example hexes, it makes it alot harder to check Supply routes etc - hence 1013 and 413 are easier hexes to use).
In effect, it's a single 'Yes/No' question and answer after each Reserve Fleet has moved?**
Is the forces in question in full supply (and not deemed supply) if Combat occurred now? >
Yes - 203.731 can't be used
No - 203.731 can be used.
** - Noting multiple reserve fleets can be used to re-open supply.
Paul you are using player commentary and extrapolation rather than official rulings to make your point.
Context:
Your initial reference to Jimi's question misses the context that Jimi and the group in Sac are making the mistake of considering RESV movement works like Retrograde Movement instead of Operational Movement. I know this because this is the group I now play in and they admitted this. They assumed it then and until yesterday assumed it. This wrong assumption wasn't addressed and has taken things down the wrong path (no one pointed it out).
The fact is there is no Supply check at or during RESV movement because that supply level is checked at the beginning of OpMv. Ships in the RESV fleets have already earned their supply. The example I brought has the Lyrans wanting to aid their ally 6 reacted Klingon fighters (perfectly fine) and the ally in this example is also in supply. They can make the journey through the NZ and cannot attack the BTS.
There are no exceptions that work here:
(203.731) is ruled out because they have a clear path to the hex and the Klingons are supplied.
(203.732) is ruled out because the L-Resv was already in supply and even if there was a supply check in the middle of a RESV movement (which there is not) the first RESV has two supply paths.
The shorter path to the 0810 major is opened by a pinned Klingon RESV at the minor.
Separately and I am sure this will all come up for review during StratCon but the Drone ship thing seems easily solved.
Assuming the whole RESV and any included Drone ships in said RESV are in supply they would be able to move to the combat hex.
If the combat hex itself is out of supply they will not function. As you say (309.31) discusses the requirement. If any exceptions are required they could go there in (309). I don't believe this should alter a RESV requirement as the ship is still in supply just cannot use the drone special abilities.
This seems specifically related to tracking back the cost of the DB usage expense to the treasury as well as resupplying the drones. (Again since it started in supply I believe it would not be a stretch to be able to pull that cost back to whatever grid supplied it).
(One option to discuss with ADB would be to make a limited use exception for the drone ships to work as they began in supply and are loaded up for combat. This could be as a restricted number of shots, or limited to a single hex (in case of fighting retreats), or just used until combat is over. I could also see it going the other way as an intermediate step and having a 'no use' rule could be put in place as rule (410.55) SPECIAL ABILITIES LOST covers what happens when these ships are outside supply routes. It would still provide EW if its the type with scout channels and used in that type of role.
Okay, so Paul had almost convinced me, but his reasoning is based on the assumption - which he is making but I did not - that there are no Coalition ships adjacent to 0911.
But there is another problem, Paul:
What about the chain 0913-1012-1011-1010-1009-0909-0809? That is also six, does not travel through the relevant neutral zone hexes adjacent to 1010, and takes a route through Klingon space where there are friendly bases.
[But query what "friendly" means in this context because those are Klingon bases, I am AFB, and I've been burned by odd definitions before.]
(600.321) ... An ally could set up a mobile base in the area of an unreleased fleet, but could not upgrade it and could not build it in the hex of an existing base to include a mobile base, of any other empire.
So the Lyran MB can be placed in the Capital.
Historically, I've interpreted the last line of that rule above as meaning that the ally (the Lyrans) cannot deploy a MB in the area of a Klingon unreleased fleet where a base already exists.
So to the extent to which the Klingon Home Fleet is not yet released, and the deployment area includes the Capital (1411) then the Lyrans are prohibited from deploying a MB in the Klingon Capital until the Home Fleet is released.
The Lyrans could place a MB within the Home Fleet deployment area prior to Home Fleet release if they were to choose a hex without a base already in it like 1410, for example. Although that may not be what the Lyrans want to do as it may not give them the benefit they are looking for.
Again, this is just how I've historically interpreted it. It may not be how the rule actually works. :-)
--Mike
And you would be correct (as was Rich, who actually has a possible tacnote for a logistical workaround).
And here is the ruling:
Quote:By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, December 07, 2013 - 04:52 pm: Edit
Q600.321. What does the last sentence mean with respect to setting up an allied MB in the unreleased fleet area of a friendly empire? The last clause is confusing. "An ally could set up a mobile base in the area of an unreleased fleet, but could not upgrade it and could not build it in the hex of an existing base to include a mobile base, of any other empire." I think that this means the answer to my question is 'the MB can't setup in the unreleased fleet area.' For example, on Coalition turn 2 the Lyrans attempt to set up a MB in the Klingon capital (hex 1411). This hex is part of an unreleased fleet province (Home fleet is not released until the Hydrans invade or Coalition turn 4, whichever comes first). Opponent asserts the Lyran can't setup a MB in hex 1411 on Coalition turn 2 due to 600.321, but must wait until Coalition turn 4. Is opponent correct?
FEDS: An empire cannot set up a MB/OPB in any hex of an unreleased fleet that contains a base (MB/OPB/BS/BTS/STB/SB) of an allied empire.
By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 - 01:27 am: Edit
"...
In my mind this is a straight up issue (this is not YET an official FEDS ruling):
1. Are enemy units blocking all supply paths to friendly units in combat (which are not stacked with valid friendly base) at this very moment?
2. Would the dispatch of one or more reserve fleets to one or more of the locations of blocking enemy ships open a supply path to said friendly units in combat? [Note that supply can flow through a battle hex under (411.2).]
..."
May be relevant. I don't think there was ever a subsequent ruling that was authoritative from a quick search.
Lawrence
I am going off SVC's ruling : -
"ANSWER: This one was upheld by SVC, the tactic is legal. Rule (203.732) shows that each reserve fleet's movements are sequential, not simultaneous. See Cap Log 32."
It's a valid point you raise about there being no 'formal' supply check at that point in reserve movement and as I said early on - I don't like the ability to create a reserve fleet being out of supply to attack a new hex - the ruling was unfortunately made.
Perhaps a new appeal could be done with the SOP being used to explain why the Fleet remains in supply?
On your 913 hex query though, if there is a Klingon ship in 1010 - there is a valid supply route from 810 through 911 (Klingon Pinned Reserve/Ship), 912 (913 ships) into 913 - the Lyran Fleet as per the current ruling and at the point of moving Reserve Fleets, remains in supply and so 203.731 can't be used.
(Hence why I assumed the Northern Supply Route would be blocked, but on this occasion, it isn't).
So for your game - the Hydran BATS in 714 is safe
On your second post - Chuck didn't want to create complex rules to cover Drone Ships or Salvage (or buying extra G's etc) where an active supply line is needed - which does make sense.
Graham
Your right, "0913-1012-1011-1010-1009-0909-0809" is a valid Supply Route and so 203.731 can't be used (and in effect is the northern route I mentioned, which I assumed wasn't useable).
The Lyrans can't assume the ships WILL be out of supply to activate 203.731 - you can't use a possible future event to dictate you can do something now to counter it.
The key part which allows it is there is Coalition ships in 1010 which allow supply to 913 - so even if a Hydran ship was in 912, supply could flow the long way round to 913.
Head Masters Report.
So, Mr Howard - you need to read ALL the 'question' and ask for clarifying points before given an answer.
Sorry for adding to the confusion - but in summary
If any Supply route gets the Reserve in supply (in Lawrence's example -0913-1012-1011-1010-1009-0909-0809 is clearly a valid supply route (if there was no Klingon reserve in 1010) and so 203.731 can't be used.
i.e. if there is a Reserve in 1010 - the Short route 810>913 can be used, if there isn't, longer route 809>913 has to be used - either way, it's in supply.
The fact the Hydrans can do other battles first to then cut 913 off in the Combat phase, doesn't matter and can't be assumed to happen.
Can someone do a one paragraph explanation of what the "resources= 3xF-15, 3xF-14" on the FED OOB actually refer to and how to set them up properly?
Do they replace the normal fighter modules on a base? Added to them? Are they fighter modules rather than fighter storage depots (as I think they must be due to YIS?)
Hi Graham
502.95 confirms how these Special Fighters are deployed.
I wold guess they do replace the normal fighter modules, but that is unwritten in the rule - the basic game effect is they just add 2 fighter factors to those 6 SB/Planets.
The (3xF-15, 3xF-14) concept is replacing one squadron (12 SFB fighters, 6 FE fighter factors) of unspecified lesser quality Federation fighters on those 3 specific planets and 3 specific Starbases with an exact number of replacement F-15s (planets) or F-14s (Starbases) respectively.
However, since the F-15s and F-14s are higher quality (gatling phasers, more/better drones, better dogfight rating, etc) one squadron (12) of fighters which would normally be 6 F&E fighter factors is 8 F&E fighter factors instead.
There are no new fighter modules or depots. The Starbase, for example, still has the exact same number of shuttle boxes assigned to servicing those 12 fighters on the SSD. It is just the fighters flying out of those boxes are stronger and the Fed player enjoys the +2 FE fighter factors for one squadron at that Starbase/planet.
To deploy (in the paper game at least) a player places 3xF-15 squadron counters on key planets (one per planet) and 3xF14 squadron counters on key SB (one per SB) in step 2B9 and you are done. The factors activate at the instant of placement and are ready for the next combat phase. The better fighters replenish indefinitely while in supply just like regular fighters do.
If the base or planet gets destroyed, the F-14 or F-15 counter is not destroyed but rather is freed up and can be placed on another Starbase or planet, respectively in the next step 2B9. This can be done over and over again as bases/planets are destroyed, so IMHO it is often best to be aggressive with these special fighters and get them out on the front lines ASAP.
However, some players may prefer to place their special fighters on Starbases/planets farther back, although this means they may not ever move and may not see much combat. They largely function as a small deterrent when deployed in this manner.
--Mike
Thank you both. That is what we thought, but there isn't a lot on the OOB defining what those actually are... so we weren't sure.
Graham:
Quote:(502.95) SPECIAL FIGHTERS
(502.951) The Federation player may (in Spring Y171) designate
three starbases or sector bases‡ to each have a squadron
of F-14s based there. This gives these starbases two extra fighter
factors.
(502.952) The Federation player may designate three planets to
each have one squadron of F-15s based there; this gives each
of these planets two extra fighter factors.
(502.953) If the PDU or starbase is destroyed, the special fighter
squadron may be designated at the start of the next Federation
turn as being at another planet (F-15s) or starbase (F-14s). There
is no other way to move the squadrons to another location and
there is no provision to increase the number of squadrons.
Thank you, Chuck. I knew there had to be a rule somewhere but the online OOB didn't have a reference to it!
Yo Ryan! ;)
Already fixed in the draft.
This is just a weirdness, not a question, really, but in my current game it appears that the Kzinti capital will fall and the Hydran capital will not (at least, probably not immediately).
So in 709.211 and 709.213, it says that if the capital DOES NOT fall (which is the only way the Hydrans will be producing ships in Y173 anyway...) The Hydrans use this schedule:
Y173S-Y176S: PAL,RN,3xCW,KN,3xDW,3xFF
Y173F-Y176F: CC,DG,3xCW,LN,3xDW,3xFF
Rather than the normal schedule in 709.211. This is obviously great since it trades 3xHN for 3xDW. However, it also delays the production of NCAs by a year (although conversions would remain available). Is that right? It seems odd that the Hydrans would produce an NCA sooner if and only if they lost their capital.
(Noting that in 709.211 starting in Y176 the Hydrans produce an NCA for one CW, as is the normal situation, but this is not duplicated in 709.213.)
Grahm,
I'll take a look at this when i get out of the hospital (kidney stones so I only wish I was dead).
I plan on an updated set going out at the end of June first part of July.
Ryan
Another Fed Note.
The Online OOB I have says the Feds can't build more (in addition to replacements) CVL's "unless using SO".
The Online SIT I have says the Feds can't build more (in addition to replacements) CVL's "for replacement only unless using AO."
Since we are using AO but not SO, this is a thing. I will try to look up the rules and figure out which is right on my own tomorrow but I figured someone would want to know this.
[OOB at 702.23, SIT obviously on the CVL line.]
Graham
Hydrans - Remember everyone (other than the Romulans*) can build 3 Ep ships at SB - so the Hydrans can always build a CU or HN at any SB's - but they can also build ships at the Guild Ship Yard if they lose their capital.
(Ignoring the Minor Ship Yards etc).
* - Or rather 1 SN - as their normal FF's costs 3.5 Eps!
On the Federation CVL - it's a complex hull as it covers in effect multiple hulls - it's a Survey Ship and so to build additional ones - I would guess the AO comment is wrong, as it's SO which allows you to build more Survey Ships and survey slots.
Paul:
I should have been more clear. I know that SB's can produce ships, but losing the SY makes the build schedule mostly irrelevant which was the point.
I think you are probably correct about the CVL, but we'll see what the powers that be say.
>> as their normal FF's costs 3.5 Eps
Technically the Romulan SK is a War Destroyer (goes all the way back to mid 80s SFB), although the 5/3 F&E factors are of course identical to some other empire's frigates.
The Roms just have to be content with building something like Snipes or Seahawks at their SB.
--Mike