Beginning in Y178 the SKs can be built at SBs and SFs.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, June 18, 2022 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Only know of 1 game (here is looking at you Peter and Jason!) which got to the end - so have asked a formal Q&A - but what does the Peanut Gallery think?

Rule 603.3 - Victory Conditions

The 'end of game' Calculation on Economic Points - how is that 'done'?

Example
Alliance capture a planet on A33 - does that count?
Coalition capture a planet on C34 - does that count?

i.e. Does the normal timescale of Ep production for captured (or re-captured) planets apply?

The same thing applies for Devastated/Recovering Planets.

If a plant got to the 4th turn of recovery on turn 34, does it count at full or devastated value at the end?

I am guessing, the same planet status that applied at the start of turn 34 is applied - and you don't in effect do a turn 35 economic turn?

i.e. a Planet captured on turn 32, WOULD count towards the Victory Points, but a Planet captured on turn 33 WOULD NOT.

A planet liberated on say turn 30, recovering on turns 31, 32,33 and 34 would produce the reduced Level of EP's for the Victory Point calculation - (as 508 has the table which helps confirm when Recovery and Full EP value).

Thanks

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, June 18, 2022 - 02:52 pm: Edit

My answers would be to use the current value as of the end of C34. In particular:

* A major planet captured on A30 would have full value as it recovered during A34. Therefore, as of the end of A34, it would be worth 5EP and 10VP. Similar reasoning would apply to planets captured during C30.

* A major planet captured anytime between C31 and A32 would be worth 2EP and 4VP.

* A major planet captured C33 or later would be worth zero, as we would not have reached the "second subsequent turn of continuous possession". The fact that a planet captured on C33 would, if there were to be a turn 35, be worth 2EP at that point, is irrelevant, because the game ends at the end of turn 34.

Provinces are a bit less obvious. If a province produced income for the Coalition during C34, but was controlled by the Alliance as of the end of A34, my gut is that it creates VP for the Alliance, but this is based on a vague memory that I am unable to substantiate. Said memory is of seeing somewhere that VPs were calculated based on "current value". But I can't find it, so I don't know.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, June 18, 2022 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Willliams, planetary recovery is usually X+5 ... although I don't think that chart is for captured planets, the middle chart is for devastated but remained in friendly possession and the bottom chart is liberated planets.

Captured planets fall under (448.28) and recover after annexation ...

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, June 18, 2022 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I would think that the victory point value should be based on the full income of the planet - as in, you owned it at the end, it's yours, and you get to draw income from it for years to come (theoretically).

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, June 18, 2022 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Stewart Frazier:

But per the chart in 508.0, a planet captured on turn N, SoP Y, recovers on turn N+4, SoP Y. So if (for example) a planet is captured on turn 30, it recovers on turn 34, SoP Y (Y would typically be the combat phase, but not necessarily always). It would therefore be recovered as of the end of turn 34. Per (603.3):

Each side makes the following calculation: Take the total economic income (ignoring exhaustion, including devastated planets at their reduced levels) and multiply it by two.

However, as the planet has already recovered before the end of turn 34, it is no longer a devastated planet. It's just that full income is not normally produced until turn 35. But as a recovered planet, the text of the rule about "devastated planets" would not seem to apply.

Kevin Howard:
That might make sense from an in-universe perspective. But the rule as quoted above is pretty clear that devastated planets count at their reduced levels.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, June 19, 2022 - 10:42 am: Edit

Yeah, I see. Solidly clear.

I also agree with your reasoning - if the planet has recovered by the end of turn 34 (not awarded that turn, but recovery finishes that turn), then for victory conditions should be based on that condition going forward.

However, just as my reasoning is shot down by the solid writing of the rules, your reasoning might be too. I dunno. Is the victory points awarded by the income levels as per your last turn (adjusted for any trades of territory, of course), or of what your income would be on turn 35?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, June 19, 2022 - 12:13 pm: Edit

For planets, it seems pretty clear that if something is devastated as of the end of turn 34, it is reduced at that point, regardless of whether or not it "would" recover on turn 35.

The provinces part is less clear to me. The problem is that income is not normally counted at the end of a turn. So, for example, I'm not sure what is "current" value in the case of provinces like these:

A) Coalition held a conquered Alliance province at the start of C34 and collected 1EP. Alliance liberated it during A34 and has a ship in it as of the end of the game.
B) Coalition province was held by the Coalition as of the start of C34, and they collected 2EP. During A34, the Alliance moved a ship in and ejected the Coalition.

What is the "current" value? There isn't one. The C34 income is a "past" value. C35, or a hypothetical A35, would be "future" values. So I don't know what current value is. My gut is that we will need a ruling for these cases. I should probably post them to the main Q&A. Just waiting a bit to get the question exactly correct.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, June 19, 2022 - 11:24 pm: Edit

Willliam, you're misreading that chart -

The top chart is for captured planets becoming part of the opposing supply grid and supplying he opponent with EP.

The middle chart is for devastated planets in friendly hands recovers

The bottom chart is for liberated planets recover

None of them have captured recovery, just friendly recovery ...

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, June 20, 2022 - 12:15 am: Edit

My planet answers were intended to be about friendly recovery. Looking at how I wrote my answer, I see this is unclear. Here is a corrected version:

My answers would be to use the current value as of the end of C34. In particular:

* A major planet liberated on A30 would have full value as it recovered during A34. Therefore, as of the end of A34, it would be worth 5EP and 10VP. Similar reasoning would apply to planets captured during C30.

* A major planet liberated anytime between C31 and A32 would be worth 2EP and 4VP.

* A major planet liberated C33 or later would be worth zero, as we would not have reached the "second subsequent turn of continuous possession". The fact that a planet captured on C33 would, if there were to be a turn 35, be worth 2EP at that point, is irrelevant, because the game ends at the end of turn 34.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, June 20, 2022 - 12:16 am: Edit

For captured enemy major planets, the schedule would match the above, except that the full value level is unobtainable. The max value would be 2EP and 4VP. At least that's how I read it.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 - 01:15 pm: Edit

No formal answer yet...

But my 2p worth would be (and the first part being based on Chuck's 508 Chart).

Recovery and Economic Production are two different things.

So a Planet liberated on A30, will recover by the Alliance A34 turn (for re-devastation purposes) but until 'A35', does not produce full income.

So a Major Liberated on C30/A30 is worth 4 VP's at the end of the game and a Minor Planet Liberated on C30/A30 is worth 2 VP's.

The only time a planet produces full income 'early' is if the Alliance are able to liberate a planet on the Coalition Turn (i.e. if the Alliance liberated 2708 on C30 - and it remains in Alliance hands for the rest of the game, it would be worth 10 Vp's) -as the 'full income' value has been reached (X+4).

Otherwise liberating a planet on the other persons turn 'has less potential value'?

On provinces, I think their are a couple of 'logical' conclusions, but the most likely one is : -

You check who owns the province at the END of turn 34 - and only if you owned it for the C34 or A34 check, does it count.

i.e. Both sides can stop the other person claiming the Economic Income and VP for a Province - but you can't can't convert a province that was claimed by the other side into a province which produces your VP's.

This ensures 430.13 is followed AND perhaps partially explains why the 'cliff edge' end of the rule was accepted being acceptable and balanced originally?

i.e. the Alliance can reduce the VP's the Coalition Scores - but you can't get a double effect.

Is 1 province worth possibly a 6 Vp swing?

It's C34 and a Coalition Province gives 2 Ep's to the Coalition (which would be worth 4 Vp's at the end). Is captured though on C34/A34 and Alliance claims 1 Ep and so 2 Vp's at the end of the game.

So if the Alliance does capture it - it's worth 0 Ep's and 0 Vp's to both sides.


The Alliance can still more easily 'boost' their EP/VP totals by ensuring as many provinces contain Alliance hulls at the end of A33 (so effect what the Coalition get on C34 and the Alliance gets on A34). (The Coalition can't fully counter this, on either C33 or C34, so going last is still very powerful).

(Peter and Jason..... your 2p would be much appreciated - as would anyone else who won a game by the VP route.....)

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, June 22, 2022 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Paul,

See my answer from 9:23pm of June 18 for why recovered planets should not be reduced.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, July 06, 2022 - 04:21 pm: Edit

Q502.6 As PF are deployed under PF1, PF2 and PF3 does this deployment take place at the beginning of the turn regardless of who is the phasing player or only when they are the phasing player? Note (530.212) and (502.6) are not clear on this.

Don't initial PF deployments take place in step 2B4? Which then by (105.0) applies to the phasing player only?

--Mike

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 06:55 am: Edit

Looking at Paul's recent question and mine, one might ask whether or not it makes sense to have both (302.721) and (302.741). They are almost the same rule.

(302.721) If there are units in the hex which cannot retreat (bases,
PDUs), the Battle Hex is not resolved and will require additional
Combat Rounds, but the non-retreating player cannot pursue the
retreating ships. Devastated planets without PDUs (even those
with Residual Defense Factors) do not block pursuit. See
(302.742) when “slow” units are involved.

(302.741) BASES: If the unit left behind is a base station‡, battle
station, mobile base, PDU, or starbase (or other bases and colo-
nies in future products), a retreating force is not able to take these
units with them. Such a unit, left behind after ships retreat from a
Battle Hex, remains functional and forces the players to return to
Step 2 of the Combat Procedure (302.2) above. Ships leaving
these units behind cannot be pursued.

Should both of these rules exist?

In any case, neither handles the case of undevastated planets without PDUs.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 10:13 am: Edit

To add to the above discussion (and I am guessing it comes up less often than Tholia being captured) - but is relevant for most games I would hope.

As I think Undevastated Planets do block persuit, the following assumes all planets are devastated (so in a normal battle, persuit could occur).

302.723.

Easy question.

Assuming ALL bases have been destroyed and all planets are devastated (or Status does not matter), can the Attacker pursue forces which do a Partial Retreat?


Two views

1) Yes than can, it is a retreat after all

2) No they can't, as it's a different type of retreat

(302.723 states "This is known as a “partial retreat” and is separate from the more general retreats covered by (302.7)."

Key word being 'seperate'.

The rules do not say persuit can or can not happen though.

On a practical logical basis - it would seem unusual to allow the Attacker to persue every force which does a Partial Retreat (so in effect, small groups would never Partially Retreat).

So the attacker could get up to 1 persuit per round in effect.

Capital Hexes already permit the directing of cripples which are NOT in the battle force (at 2:1) so there is already a big weakness of having cripples in the capital hex.

The Partial retreat option at least allows them to not be risked - but the defender loses them for the ability of both defending the hex and using those ships in persuit battle - so there is a cost of keeing them safe.

But if they could be pursued - it would give the Attacker multiple opportunities to kill defending ships - over and above the normal '1 persuit battle'.

On a related question (I was hoping for an answer and I found another question).

307 - How many persuit battles can be fought in an hex?

Normally, there is a maximum of 1 Persuit Battle - but could you have 2 if the Defender withdraws crippled forces prior to a battle?

Is the Persuit Force v withdrawn ships (which includes 1 or more cripples) fought immediately?

After the normal combat - is there another pursuit?

(which could weirdly be for both sides if the attacker then retreats and the defender has something which could pursue - unlikely, but a large dice imbalance or ships being captured could allow the defender to 'win' and the attacker has to retreat).

I am therefore guessing (but it's not in the rules) the answer is C and D?

A) There can be as many pursuits in a hex as the defender declares either a Withdrawal before combat or Partial Retreat, plus 1 for the normal pursuit at the end.

B) There is only ever a maximum of 1 pursuit battle in any hex - which is done either as a Withdrawal before Combat pursuit or a normal pursuit.

C) There is no pursuit allowed when the defender uses the Partial Retreat rule

D) With Withdrawal before combat, the single pursuit battle takes place at the end of the battle - and crippled ships which Withdrew, are included in it. (To be fair, I am not sure I like this answer, but it is better than A or B.. - so could be 1 per side be the answer and the attacker decides to do it immediately or at the end?)
.

I'll post both in the formal Q&A section - which are cleaned up - but what do people think?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 11:05 am: Edit

302.721 doesn't say that undevastated planets block pursuit. It says devastated planets and RDFs do not.

307.1 specifically refers to "any retreat" and to withdrawal before combat. I suppose it is possible that it means "any Rule 302 retreat" and does not include partial retreats under the capital defense rules. Indeed, partial retreats would be, um, less good if they resulted in additional pursuit, although as a practical matter it only matters after the Starbase falls.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Graham

As it refers to devastated planets... I think they infer Undevastated do block -as otherwise 302.721 makes no sense.

On 307.1 - I have re-re-re read it, it seems 302.7 DOESN'T actually apply???

"This is known as a “partial retreat” and is separate from the more general retreats
covered by (302.7)."

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 03:09 pm: Edit

I haven't delved into these arguments, but if I'm reading it right (which I may not because I only skimmed) my crystal ball says you're getting nowhere trying to argue that an undevastated planet blocks pursuit.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 04:05 pm: Edit

An undevastated planet does not block pursuit, this has been ruled before.

My opinion is that if you do a partial retreat, pursuit is blocked if there is a base present at the battle round of the retreat. If not, then pursuit is not blocked.

In the case of multiple partial retreats on different battle rounds (imo), only the units that retreat without a blocking base can be pursued, and all such units (combined with any normal pursuit) conduct a single pursuit round as per the normal rules, if pursuit occurs at all.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 04:41 pm: Edit

This should be pursued further.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 04:43 pm: Edit

...I'll pursue him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round perdition's flames before I give him up!

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 04:59 pm: Edit

>> ...I'll pursue him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round perdition's flames before I give him up!

Unless he leaves a base or PDU behind.... :-)

--Mike

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Exactly! LOL!

I will admit to taking one liberty with that quote. Khan actually said "I'll chase him...}

But I figured it fell within poetic license to make the point!

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, July 12, 2022 - 07:48 pm: Edit

Partial retreats can be crippled ships withdrawn during either Step #4 or Step #8, or a static ship that the Defender feels at risk (Step #4) and withdraws from battle. These ships are now not part of teh Defending Fleet but are still in the capital hex and their fate is resolved at the end of the BATTLE (Capital) Hex.

If the Defender wins, those ships that partially retreated, fully retreat. If the Defender retreats, those partially retreated ships join those retreating ships.