No. War/Limited War/Peace is something that is an economic rule, not a 'am I at war with a specific power' rule. I suspect that the Feds can go to a full wartime economy and continue to support the Kzinti without going to 'war' against the Klingons (assuming the Feds stay out of Coalition territory and so on).

By fabio poli (Fabioz) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 08:50 am: Edit

(603.122) to all: this rule from the Grand campaign (scenario Hurricane) specify what the Federation could do.
And, for me, it can just stay at Limited war (for combat status) more than 4 turns; it has to revert to peace (at wartime status if it choose so) or declare war to klingons.
We were playing the grand campaign, not the free one.
Anyone cannot decide which rules af the grand campaign use and which not.
Also combat status is not the same of economic level (from 652); when the rules free a nation from costrains you can choose the economy level you prefer, and federation can go wartime lvl economy being at peace, but can't stay at limited war more than 4 turn allowed by limited war.
And if he reverts to peace, all fleet should turn to peace stations (but this is not specified by rules), in any case federation cannot have units in kzinti or neutral space (unless interned), cannot have fleet released (they are relesead by specific events, not by specific turn), cannot do survey (off map or on map), cannot build minor shipyards, cannot build colony, cannot do overproduction or accelerated production, cannot give ep to kzinti and so on.
It is at peace, maybe at wartime economy like the romulans.
IMHO

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Fabio

The two key rules are : -

(652.2) ECONOMIC LEVELS
This is, in fact, a general rule which applies to the historical campaign as well as to a free campaign.

(654.0) -

An empire cannot remain at voluntary Limited War
for more than four turns (652.22) but turns in which it is conducting campaigns in allied territory (engaging in combat with enemy
forces) do not count for this limit.


In other words, if you have a Coalition which avoids attacking the Federation in an attempt to force the Federation to attack the Klingons (thereby allowing the Romulans to attack the Gorns later and keep the Gorns out of the War), the Federation has four options

1) Continue Limited War(as 654.0 explicitly permits this - i.e. the General rule of 4 turns is trumped by the specific rule).
2) Go to full war and attack the Coalition
3) Got to Full War economically,but remain on Limited War Political Status.
4) Go to a Peace Economy (and Political Status).


I don't think the game is intended to have a non-aggressive Coalition though, and as the Federation, I would go option 1 or option 3.

As always, might be wrong though.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Hi Paul,

I assume in your parenthetical: "(thereby allowing the Romulans to attack the Gorns later and keep the Gorns out of the War)" that you misspoke and that you meant: (thereby allowing the Romulans to attack the FEDERATION later and keep the Gorns out of the War)?

As I understand this gambit, the point is to force Gorn neutrality by having the Federation attack the Klingons, which then allows the Romulans to declare war against the Federation without also triggering a Gorn entry into the war.

BTW - has anyone ever played out this scenario? I assume it ends badly for the Federation/Alliance.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 06:30 pm: Edit

BTW, if the Romulans declare war on the Federation, the Gorns then have the option to support the Feds with their own Limited War (adjacent borders and all) - [although if the Roms stay in the 7th Fleet district, they may not be able to] ...

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 07:51 pm: Edit

>> 1) Continue Limited War (as 654.0 explicitly permits this - i.e. the General rule of 4 turns is trumped by the specific rule).

To me, this seems like the best option for the Feds if the Klingons do not attack. The Feds can begin bolstering their defenses (particularly of the vulnerable SBs on the Klingon border) and building more ships. The Feds can also begin directly assisting the Kzinti and start to deal some damage to the Coalition.

It just doesn't click with me why the Klingons would ever want to wait to attack? I know the waiting strategy is a thing, but the juicy Turn 7 opportunity to attack the Federation seems too good to pass up.

--Mike

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 08:37 pm: Edit

The Federation (or any empire) cannot be at limited war and full war at the same time. They can go to a full wartime economy and assist the Kzintis, and as long as they do not enter Coalition space, they are not 'at war' with the Coalition. Imo. Essentially this means the Coalition will usually attack the Federation on turn 10 - time's up!

By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 09:48 pm: Edit

Stewart,

If the Federation attack the Klingons or the Romulans, the Gorn do not go to war (to include limited war). They become in effect an armed major neutral until somebody attacks them. This would be because the agreement between the Fed and the Gorn is a mutual defense treaty, and an aggressive Fed violates the defense clause of that treaty.

(603.54) If the Federation starts a war with the Romulans or Klingons, the Gorns do not enter the war at all unless somebody attacks the Gorns (and they join the other side).

This is largely a balancing rule against a successful Hydran Expedition. Hydran Expedition succeeds, Feds declare war, Gorn sit it out. But it can come up if the Coalition decide to delay an attack on the Fed so that they can finish off another Alliance capital.

And yes, we're playing it out now. It is going very badly for the Coalition. As a general concept, if things are going so badly for the Coalition that they are willing to forgo attacking the Fed long enough that the Fed consider going to full war and attacking the Klingons on turn 10 or later, the Klingons are probably already in a serious world of hurt. We took down the Kzinti capital on turn 10C and were trying to get ships into position for a final push on the Hydran capital. Our Hydran player is very good and had us flummoxed up till that point.

The Fed decided not to wait on us and went full war on 10A. The Klingons had the border fairly well covered, but giving an enemy the initiative is always problematic. The already mobilized Home Fleet cut north into the Kzinti-Klingon NZ and punched the Klingon fleet out giving the Kzinti a turn to regroup.

Its so bad that I'm expecting to see the Klingon Capital under siege by turn 15A at the latest as the Hydran are no-loner defending their capital. Its not under threat. The Kzinti just retook their capital on turn 13A; and are about to force most of the Klingon fleet out of Kzinti space.

The NR starbase is already gone (killed on 12A). The saving grace is that the Kzinti will be hard pressed to reach Klinshai by turn 15A. The Fed took a pounding at the NR starbase, so will only have around 40 ships. Unfortunately the Lyrans are in complete disarray and the Hydrans are in position to hold off the Lyrans and strike into the heart of Klingon space.

We know this game is over. Its a done deal and we can stick a fork in it any time we want. The Klingon player however has asked us to play out till the end of 15A to see how the Coalition handle being the defender. Brave of him.

Our bright spot is that there are nearly 40 Romulan ships in range of Vulcan. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure that there are almost as many Fed ships in range of Vulcan as the Rom have, and they're on average a bit bigger. I simply cannot do enough damage to slow the Fed economic engine with the Klingon fleet in such disarray. I'm certainly not in a position to assault a well defended capital. So turn 14 starts this Saturday.

"Today is a good day to die."

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Wednesday, November 02, 2022 - 11:34 pm: Edit

So my personal experience with this strategy has a sample size of 1, and when the coalition forgoes attacking the Feds so long that whether or not the Gorn join the alliance becomes a factor, that game went _very badly_ for the Coalition. Allowing the Feds to sit and build at wartime economy without interruption for any length of time, as near as I can tell, is basically a loss state for the Coalition.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 03:20 am: Edit

John

Yes - Brain failure on typing.

Roms can attack the Feds and keep the Gorn out of the war

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 03:26 am: Edit

Richard -

Just in case I have missed the point, which bit of the above/rules are you referring to?

(As 652.211 allows a nation to be Politically at a Peace or Limited War Status and Economically at a Full War Status - and Hydrans and Romulans for several turns have a mismatch between the two - accepting that may in effect be a special rule, rather than the general rule).

(652.211) The actual combat conditions are not related to the economic level. An empire can be on a Wartime economy (431.4) without attacking another empire or being attacked. Limited War is considered Wartime for purposes of production restrictions, mobile bases, defense battalions, etc., but not for base upgrades.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 03:45 am: Edit

Accepting if the Coalition is doing badly - and the players want to continue the game, is the intent of the game, should one side decide to do it, keep one Empire out of the game?

On the most practical basis - if you have a single player playing each Empire, it's hardly fun to sit waiting for 11 turns and be told 'your not yet needed as the Gorn are not able to go to war yet'?

On the game mechanics point of view, can the Coalition increase the chance of winning by Vp points by NOT attacking the Federation?

i.e. Sit back and destroy the Kzinti and Hydrans.

Turn 11 to 33 - wait to see if the Federation attacks the Coalition.

If they do - Coalition get to use all three powers v a destroyed Hydran and Kzinti and a strong Federation.

If they don't - Coalition can attack the Federation on turn 33 or 34 (as there is no limit on when they can attack) to reduce Alliance Economic Income.

(Any attack by the Gorns are likely to be pretty minimal).

So Coalition have all of L/K/Kz/H space - plus disrupt all the outer Federation provinces.

Coalition might have enough extra ships to kill several of the Federation SB's too!

Could the Alliance win on that basis?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 04:18 am: Edit

That rule does not mean you can be at limited and full war at the same time Paul. You are reading it wrong.

It is entirely possible for the Feds to go to full war economic level on turn 10 without invading the Coalition (and setting the Gorns to permanent neutrals). This does not forbit the Feds from continuing to assist the Kzintis. It is not the limited war rule that allows assistance of the Kzinti - that rule only affects the empire using it to determine their economic level.

By Stefano Predieri (Preda) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 12:19 pm: Edit

In our game, the coalition isn't in a bad situation, it's in a strange situation.
During turn 4 the Kzinti, in order to make a turn 7 attack on federal SB 4 harder, attacked and destroyed the 2 northernmost bats in the east fleet area, thus activating the east fleet and freeing the costruction in the fleet area.
Than the coalition decided to change their strategy and instead of a Hydran first than federation, decided to crush the Hydrans slower and defend HARD the federation border.
They pursued the cheapest possible attack option every time. Hydran capital fell turn 8 and Kzinti still have 3 planets behiond Kzintai undevasted(1 Major in capital hex with 9 PDU, 1502 with 8 PDU end 1902 with 6 pdu 1 BS and a Lot of federal ships on).
Meanwhile they bolstered their economy and shipbuliding at maximum possible level (max extra survey offmap, 2 colonies in production at all time and 1 extra engeneer each building small shipyards). And with all the extra economy they have instead of spending in repairs or overbuilding they spent on Starbases. There are 5 extra Klingon SB (1407, 1009, 1611, 1714, 2216) and 4 extra lyran SB (0705, 1413, 1916, 2518); as 6 of this new SBs are on planets, on that planets PDUs have been added (max for 1407, a few for the others. Extra construction works are in progress in the Hydran Capital and 0416.
I assume they have planned to win the war at points defending.
As they have attacked all the hardest targets with SAF support, they also housbanded their shipcount, and as of the turn 10C end, they have 300ish pin advantage.
If I would have been forced to declare war on klingon on turn 10 and than lost the gorn support, even with a federation that is so well defended that will hardly lose more than 20/25% of it's territory, we will probably never be able to obtain ship parity, and than how we can beat the enormous quantity of points the extra SBs, the hydran capital, a probable Tholian capital (make sense to get it with a difensive strategy) and a mostly intact territory they will get?
If I would have been forced to stop my support of the Kzinti after 4 turns (Thanks to Mike for pointing out the exception to the 4 limited war turns in 654.0, we missed it) and revert to peace to not declare war, they could have crushed the kzinti and at least temporarily take their capital relatively fast and than attack me with even more pin advantage (due to 6 turn of kzinti minimal production), even admitted i Could go to full war production meanwhile.

If I can stay at limited war status but with full war economy, the situation is tense but probably manageable for us. They will have to attack me sooner than later, or long term the extra economy will let me overbuild so many ship that I can even let the Gorn stay home and attack by myself, even with the big handicap of no survey and no minor shipyards.
But can I?
I totally agree with Fabio that scenario rules trump general rules, and so the federation in turns 7/9 can't go to 100 economy because 602.4 specifically state that federation economy can't go behiond 75% unless attacked.
Than (603.122) says: If the Klingons have not attacked the Federation, the Federation can attack the Klingons AND go to full Wartime production on Turn #10. They could, of course, remain on Limited War status until the limits of (652.22).

The rule says I can attack AND go to full production. Can I do 1 but not the other? That's now the answer I want.

Because if not, even staing at limited war might be not enough to stop coalition, as i will continue to bleed pincount as i will not have surplus after building my basic line and supporting the kzinti economically, while with extra survey and minor shipyards they will be able to build more ships than me, even at 75% economy after turn 15...

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 01:01 pm: Edit

Richard, you may or may not be right (I have now got confused ), but some of the rules seem to say an Empire can be at Full War Economically (100%), but politically not be at Full War?

Therefore unless the Federation does attack Klingon space (or Romulan space later) - the Gorn neutrality rule doesn't come in?

i.e. Rule

(652.211) The actual combat conditions are not related to the economic level. An empire can be on a Wartime economy (431.4) without attacking another empire or being attacked. Limited War
is considered Wartime for purposes of production restrictions, mobile bases, defense battalions, etc., but not for base upgrades.

So that seems to confirm the Federation can be at a War Time level (from turn 10, if not attacked early) Economically, but remain under Peacetime or Limited War Political restrictions?

As the Federation have not activated Full War Politically (attack the Klingons or Romulans) - Gorn Neutrality is also not activated?


As mentioned, the confusion perhaps is the rules are designed for the Coalition to attack the Alliance members in turn - not to attack the Kzinti and Hydrans and then ignore the Federation.

For example rule 603.2 - If the Romulans never attack the Federation - it would seem they are not part of the Coalition (and the enabling rule to allow them to become part of the Coalition, is their attack on the Federation - but it is not clear on what happens if they never attack the Federation....?).

Equally, as mentioned by Stefano - 603.122 gives it as an 'and' - and so full economic war may NOT be possibly without Political War for the Federation - hence you may be right.

Hopefully the powers that be will see the Question and formally give an answer

It may be as simple as confirming which is the General Rule and which is the Specific Rule.

Gut feeling is the Feds will be allowed to remain at Limited War, but will not be able to go to Full War without risking losing the Gorns?

(i.e. Empires can be at different Political and Economic Levels - but the Feds via 603.122 can't be at full economic war without also going to full political war AND attacking the Klingons or Romulans?)

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 02:33 pm: Edit

A scenario rule is always going to be "more specific" than any non-scenario rule. The first line of 652.2 even says so, "This is, in fact, a general rule which applies to the historical
campaign as well as to a free campaign."

Economic levels, as has been stated previously, have nothing to do with political status. IOW, the Feds could "declare war" on the Romulans but still operate at peacetime economy, if they have no ships in enemy territory and vice versa, and any other restriction of peacetime _economy_ are met.

The reverse is also true. The Feds could be "at war" with no one, but operating at wartime economic levels, within the usual restrictions (must be at limited wartime economy for 1 turn first, etc.)

_Scenario rules_ may restrict this further, but "declaring war" mechanically is just about which fleets are released and where you can move your ships, not your economic level.

Taken as a whole, the picture looks something like this:
The Federation goes to limited wartime economy on turn 7, for 75% economic production, ability to save EP, and other benefits of LW.

IF no aggression occurs by the Klingons, they _can_ still declare to be on wartime economy on turn 8, however their production is still limited to 75% by 602.46. So this is probably not a great idea, you should probably stay at limited wartime economy in this case.

You can do that for a total of 4 turns (turns 7, 8, 9, and 10). On turn 11, if _still_ no one has invaded you, you must either revert to peacetime economy, or go to wartime economy, but still only receiving 75% production even if you have declared wartime economy. So the clock will start ticking on exhaustion, but without most of the benefits (you could do a few activities allowed at wartime that are not allowed at limited war).

Unless I missed something somewhere else, it looks like _only_ the Klingons entering your territory and attacking a unit removes the 602.46 restriction, so I'm not sure, but the Romulans might be able to attack the Feds while they are still limited to 75% economy. It would also force them to _declare_ wartime economy and start the exhaustion clock but without the economic benefit.

I hope that helps? Just think of 652.2 as its own box, something you must follow and declare your intended economic status, per those rules, each turn, not related to who is "at war" with who politically, and then the scenario limits you to 75% if the Klingons haven't triggered you (even if you've chosen wartime economic status).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Jamey

Sorry, your post confused me even more!

But the Feds can stay at Limited War due to 654.0......

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 05:56 pm: Edit

>> total of 4 turns (turns 7, 8, 9, and 10). On turn 11, if _still_ no one has invaded you, you must either revert to peacetime economy, or go to wartime economy

I think this is incorrect? At the end of (654.0) LIMITED WAR:

An empire cannot remain at voluntary Limited War for more than four turns (652.22) but turns in which it is conducting campaigns in allied territory (engaging in combat with enemy forces) do not count for this limit.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Thursday, November 03, 2022 - 09:33 pm: Edit

Sorry yeah, if you're still doing stuff over in Kzinti space you can stay on Limited war economy indefinitely, at 75%, without ticking up your exhaustion counter.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, November 12, 2022 - 04:06 pm: Edit

99% Confident answer is 'yes', they remain neutral on the main question - but I would think 'no' is probably the correct answer on the partial grid question?

"503.5 - Orion Enclave

503.412 - If the only Coalition Supply Grid is a Supply Tug (or Convoy), it would appear the Orions remain neutral?

Just checking as William thought it has to be a 'full' base or Planet being the connection point, but we couldn't find anything on it.

On a related question (which was asked, but not answered by someone else), if the only connection to a Coalition Supply Grid was a Partial Supply Grid - would that still count as rules do not say yes or no."

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, November 12, 2022 - 07:59 pm: Edit

A supply grid is a number of supply points connected together. A supply tug is not itself a supply point for this purpose. It extends an existing grid but is not part of one.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, November 13, 2022 - 07:39 am: Edit

Just to be clear -- the supply tugs in question are both themselves connected to the main Klingon supply grid. Orion is within 6 hexes of a supply tug which in turn is within 6 hexes of a Klingon planet with a supply line to Klinshai. The question is whether or not Orion rejoins the Federation under those circumstances.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, November 13, 2022 - 03:00 pm: Edit

In this case, Orion remains neutral.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, November 30, 2022 - 10:44 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Wednesday, November 30, 2022 - 06:33 pm: Edit

(446.12) CONSTRUCTION: The developing empire must send
to the hex by operational or strategic movement a tug or two
LTTs [Mission (509.1X)] or a convoy (civilian or military but not
commercial), which must remain in that hex for three consecutive
turns. If the tug/convoy leaves the hex or is destroyed, development
is canceled, and all EPs spent for it are lost. Romulan
KRTs, SPHs, and 3FEs all count as LTTs (516.0) for this purpose.

It takes 6 FEs to establish a colony??? Can this be correct? You need 2 KRTs even though they are full tugs?

---

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Thursday, December 01, 2022 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Three questions came up in my game this afternoon, and we wanted to be sure we handled them correctly. Note - Base game, 2010 rules.

1) A Kzinti FF had reacted into neutral zone hex 0704 as a Lyran group passed through and the Lyrans left a CL to deal with it. The Lyrans had sizeable forces in 0703 and 0803 and outnumbered the Kzintis in both hexes by a considerable margin. Hex 0705 had the Lyran BS and nothing else, and hexes 0603 and 0604 were empty. When the FF retreats, what are its options? The Kzinti player said that the FF could retreat into 0803 under Priority 4 without it being a fighting retreat because all the other hexes had been eliminated by the earlier priority steps (the Wyn Cluster by Priority 1, 0703 and 0803 by Priority 2, 0603, 0604 and 0705 by Priority 3). Is that correct?

2) Are chain substitutions allowed? For example, the Kzintis can sub a CL for a CM. Two FFs can also be subbed for a CL. Can two FFs be substituted for a CM? Similarly, could two EFFs substitute for the two FFs being substituted for a CL?

3) Are independent fighter factors allowed to participate in pursuit battles (for either force)?