So after several months of no-F&E, my son has come around to starting another game. As before, "Where Terrible Things Happen" is stolen from Jon Murdock, who in the middle of the "And Now For Something Completely Different, Part Deux" thread coined the phrase "Federation and Empire: Where Terrible Things Happen." And Trent and I regularly quoted that deadpan whenever (in our prior games) a roll completely ruined someone's day/week/battle hex.

Trent wasn't enamoured of playing the Coalition, so I am once again attempting to conquer the galaxy and make the universe safe for people with prominent forehead crests, while he is defending the Alliance position.

All the same rules, specifically a very mildly modified version of the rules Peter and Jason run, mostly deleting any AUX ships not used and replacing specialty hulls with the base hull or nearest hull that IS in the rules we are using:

"...most of CO, FO, and AO, but removing a few rules (as well as a couple from the base rule set). Looking at them all:

-From Base 2K10: Remove ship captures (don’t like having to remember). Add “you can always sub an FF” (i.e. you can always build an FF instead of any ship on your production schedule). Only Klingons get BBs (using B10 construction rule), except for Federation Reaction (from AO). No Orions in any capacity other than abstract smuggling.

-From CO: Remove SFGs, 77th PF Division, 23rd FiCon Division, Monitors, SAF, Ground Combat (replace all G ships with base hull; ignore G Aux ships), Prime Teams, Police Ships (except to react to raids; all POLs are compot 4).

-From FO 2016: Remove Swarms, Wild SWACs. Long Term Capture (mostly to avoid having to figure out map status).

-From AO: Ignore Admiral Quality (use regular Admirals); remove Logistics Task Force (Feds can build FDX like Klingons); Penal ships; use Fed Reaction (opting to use optional rule)."

Different from them, we will be using:

-Ships: Any ship not requiring RULES located outside the expansions noted is allowed if it is on the online SIT. This includes anything conjectural or not-actually-built, but not ships that do not have complete entries or which require rules located in expansions that aren't on the list.

-Logistics Task Forces will be allowed, when we get there, because why not?

Since this is the third game, and we live together, the hope is we can liven up the board a bit and keep steady progress on turns. The first two games were favorable for my side, so once again Trent will get some balance options (in addition, I suppose, to LTF's.):

Alliance:
-More Ships (Feds) (T5) (+4)
-More Ships (Feds) (T6) (+4)
-Quest for Methane (+6)
-Early Carriers (Gorns) (+3)
-Extra Bases (+10)

Coalition:
-Preparation (Converting D6 to D6M) (+1)
-Activite Reserves (Active Mothball D6) (+1)
-Cruiser Production (Lyrans extra CA slot) (+10)

Net +15 for the Alliance, as intended.

I am not sure when the actual first post will go up, but it should be soon. For now, this is the outline of the game and I will post setup and initial Coalition economy when that happens. Tentatively, I think Trent is planning on putting the extra SB in 1502, but I'm not sure how good an idea that actually is... we'll see. Maybe that kind of forces the Coalition into a Kzinti-first just to arrange to kill everything, but I was happy with Kzinti-first last time.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, January 21, 2023 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Woo!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 04:06 am: Edit

Hi Graham

Good luck!


One suggestion though -

"-Ships: Any ship not requiring RULES located outside the expansions noted is allowed if it is on the online SIT. This includes anything conjectural or not-actually-built, but not ships that do not have complete entries or which require rules located in expansions that aren't on the list."

I would suggest you do not play with the additional ships - some of the added ships IMHO would only be balanced by the rules which are part of that rules expansion.

Coalition for example get a lot 'unlimited build' EW 4 ships, with no Alliance equivalent.

In addition, it also makes it a lot easier to play - your not each Economic turn going down the SIT list to see what Ships date of entry become available?

Easy way to unbalance the game without knowing it!

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 04:18 am: Edit

I really can't see that extra base being worth it for the Alliance - the extra CA the Lyrans get is far better. Worst case it falls essentially for free, doing maybe 10 EP worth of cripples. Best case it forces the Coalition to go Hydran first, and the Alliance can keep the Marquis zone out of Coalition hands for an extra turn or two.

Either way, good luck!

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 11:31 am: Edit

Congrats on starting your next WTTH game! May the best player win.

If I did A. Extra Bases (+10) for the Kzinti I'd rather have it off-map. I think that will ultimately generate more value than anywhere on-map.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Mike

Why?

An extra FF built if 1401 is captured, is hardly much of a benefit (and FRDs can always move off map for repairs).

Very much a wasted Base.


As Sam said - the SB probably can't be defended - so probably isn't a good value for 10 Option points?

If the Kzinti have it - 1802 would be far better (as it's safer, early on) or 2306 is perhaps also more defensible (accepting a turn 7 attack would not be nice as the Feds can be overrun, the extra Fed ships could help defend it).

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 03:45 pm: Edit

If my choices are to either have a low value off-map Kzinti SB that will do a little to help the cause all game long, or an additional on-map Kzinti SB that will either be ignored or steamrolled, I'll take the off-map one. Neither is a really strong use of 10 balance points.

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Paul: We had that discussion last time. As before, the most unbalancing factor is that the various galactic empires are being operated by a lawyer and a thirteen year old. Not worried about it, looking for maximum fun.

Sam: I agree, the extra SB (which is on 1502) may not be worth it. Trent disagrees, proof is in the pudding (I took the same thing last game though, and it was nice to have in the Marquis area.)

Mike/Paul: No way you put it off map. The Kzinti are limited by EPs, not SBs, for conversions, so this isn't particularly helpful.

...and we're off!

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 04:57 pm: Edit

Nothing particularly surprising in setup. The Kzinti put the Duke's fleet in 1003 (as it ever was), and the Count's in 0902, with a reserve set from each.

The Lyrans put their stuff as close to the border as they can, because, um, they are planning on charging across it like there's tuna on the other side.

Coalition econs:

Year/Turn	Y168F	Turn 1	Exploration:	0 + 14 = 14			Repairs				Conquer	major	minor	provinces	Total
Starting Treasury		0	FFF:	3			Hex	Ships	EPs	By	G				0
Income	Major	Minor	Province	Total							F				0
On Map	3	3	16	56							N				0
Off Map	2	2	4	24							Kz				0
Capital	4	5		35								0	0	0	0
Captured	0	0	0	0
Transfers
Salvage
Repairs				0
Total Income this turn				115
Total EP Available				115
Schedule	#	Actual	#		Hex	Cost
BC	1	BC	1			10
CA	2	TGP, CA	1			14
CW	4	3xCW,JGP	4			22
DW	3	2xDW,DWS	3			14
FF	3	FF	3			7.5
Total						67.5		Total	0
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
CA	1	DN	1		408	6
CL	1	CLS	1		404	3
CL	1	CLS	1		608	3
CL	1	CLS	1		411	3
CL	1	CLS	1		OFF	3
Total						18
Activations						Cost
Total						0
Other Production						Cost
Fleet Repair Dock						10
KSP	Pair					6
Total						16
Other Costs
CP	4th					5
Total						5
Grand Total						106.5
Ending FFF						3
Ending Treasury						8.5

Year/Turn	Y168F	Turn 1	Exploration:				Repairs				Conquer	major	minor	provinces	Total
Starting Treasury		0	FFF:	6			Hex	Ships	EPs	By	Gorn				0
Income	Major	Minor	Provinces	TOTAL INCOME							Federation				0
On Map	4	7	26	93							Neutral				0
Off Map	0	0	0	0							Kzinti				0
Capital	5	8		49							Hydran				0
Captured				0											0
Transfers												0	0	0	0
Salvage
Repairs
Total Income this turn				142
Available to Spend				142
Schedule	#	Actual	#		Hex	Cost
D7C	1	D7C	1			9
D7	1	TGA	1			8
D6	1	D6M	1			10
D5	9	8xD5,D5S	9			48
F5L	2	F5	2			6
F5	4	F5	4			12
E4	3	E4R,2xE4	3		E4R 1509	14.5
Total						107.5		Total	0
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
D6	1	D6S	1		1411	4
D6	1	D6M	1		1411	5
D5	1	D5S	1		1411	3
D6	1	D6D	1		1509	3
D6	1	D6D	1		1716	3
D6	1	D6V	1	5FFF	2318	2
Total						20
Activations						Cost
d6	2	21 left				2
f5	2	10 left				2
e4	4	15 left	1 free			3
e4a	1	free				0
Total						7
Other Production						Cost
Total						0
Other Costs
CP	4th					5
Total						5
Grand Total						139.5
Ending FFF						1
Ending Treasury						2.5

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, January 22, 2023 - 05:06 pm: Edit

On Coalition Turn 1, the Lyrans move the Home Fleet (less the six ships on the 7 row) to 0803, where every ship from the Duke's except the reserve reacts in. Seeing that reserve floating in space, the Lyrans pile the 7 row ships into 0803 and then use a big detachment of the Red Claw to pin the Duke's reserve (going through 0903 to dissuade reactions.)

By the end of the turn, the only Kzinti hardpoint under attack is 0803, where there are 11 ships from the Count's reserve, every loose Kzinti ship in the sector, against the Red Claw and Home fleets. Then in deep space in 1003, some number of Lyrans are facing off against a 12 ship reserve.

The Lyrans leave TGA/MB in 0705, and LAV,FRD in 0707. The Home Fleet tug is carrying a scout pallet in 0803.

Combat is next.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 03:11 am: Edit

No Lyran CCs is a bold choice. I suppose 3EW is frequently more valuable than 3 compot, but you're going to lose a lot more value when the CLS are directed if you're putting them on the line (and with 4, you're going to be putting them on the line). Plus CDR doesn't do anything for CA->CC like if does for CL->CLS, so you don't have that option. Mind sharing your reasoning there?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 11:27 am: Edit

Sam:

Not at all.

First off, our ruleset doesn't include CDR.

So in this game, because Trent picked upwards of the number of balance points we budgeted, I took extra CA's for the Lyrans, which probably makes my idea less effective. But the idea is this.

Every Lyran CA is a Lyran DN, STT, tug, or heavy carrier in the making. I don't want to be wasting major conversions on CL->BC (because the goal is to have an SB busting group of 12 point ships).

As a result, CL's don't have a purpose other than to become scouts, or get used as 4 point SC 3 ships in battle groups (ick.)

So I convert the CL's now, and only later convert the CC's once I am sure I won't have better uses for them.

In fact, I probably should have done some this turn, but I didn't rethink it after I saw that I could take the extra CA slot... And it isn't going to be a huge deal. I can always convert some as time goes on.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Grahan

You have alas shown why allowing 'all ships without rules' should never be allowed.

What rule or ship offset do the Kzinti or Hydrans have against 12 EW being built on turn 1?.

Thats 9 EW in a Battlegroup..... on turn 1 (or 15 EW if you have 3 DWS's too!!!).

Sorry - IMHO, you have busted the game on turn 1.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Paul:

Once again, all this stuff is exhaustively debated in the last WTTH thread. But to recap: The advantage of the CLS is the ability to use CL hulls that don't have more useful purposes; a EW=3 platform that loses 4 COMPOT is available to the coalition without limits anyway from turn 1 (the D5S); and generally, it seems silly to be debating the game-warping energy of the Lyran CLS.

It's a fine ship, and if you are desperate to win an EW war it does a pretty good job. But it isn't even the best unlimited 3 point scout the Coalition has available on CT1, let alone anything that will break the game.

I mean, the CLS isn't even a ship -affected- by our "allowing ships off the SIT" rule. It's not conjectural or "never built," the CL variants are part of the normal game, I believe.

The first ships to show up that are affected by that rule are the Fed CL-scouts, I believe.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I believe our previous discussion of this topic also highlighted the availability of D6S (CO) and Lyran KSP tug pods (AO), which both amount to EW4 scouts. Even leaving CLS out of the equation, the Coalition can field very powerful EW forces early in the game if they so choose. The "CLS is OP" argument is a bit of a red herring, IMHO.

Personally, I'd prefer to build out additional Lyran conversion capabilities and convert those CL into more BC and BCH (which can much later in the game carry PFs). But of course, everyone plays the game a little differently and we get to see how all these choices work out!

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 02:05 pm: Edit

Graham (and Mike)

Your game, but there are two issues : -

1) The CL isn't good to start with - it's an even ship AND not high enough in compot.

2) The Klingons can't afford several D5S's AND they need those ships for the Compot Boost in Battlegroups (or normal line ships if not playing with Battlegroups).


Mike - Both of those ships are limited (due to pods or until the Feds enter the war) - so in 1 hex, they might get a high level of EW - but they are not cheap to build.

So your basically forcing the Alliance to fight into a -1 or -2 shift for every important battle (including SB's and Alliance Capitals).

Your game - but I can't see the Alliance winning.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Lol, Paul, you make mountains out of molehills.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, January 23, 2023 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Graham wrote:
>>As before, the most unbalancing factor is that the various galactic empires are being operated by a lawyer and a thirteen year old. Not worried about it, looking for maximum fun.>>

This. Right here. I'm always confused as to how folks seem to gloss over this aspect of these games.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, January 24, 2023 - 02:33 am: Edit

Seems I am in the minority

I do agree with Peter though - the intent of the game is fun fun fun!!!


Has combat been done.... and did the Lyrans get to keep ships in range of 1401?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, January 24, 2023 - 10:00 am: Edit

A BG of 3*CLS with 9 EW is just not that big a deal. Even if you force a 2 shift *every battle* (not a reasonable assumption given Zin SB EW capabilities) you just cost yourself 16 compot in each battle, not 12 - because you could have used 3*CW instead of 3*CLS. That's a big number. The reduced compot may not be worth the rather limited effect that EW has on damage - unless the BIR is low (unlikely, as usually someone picks a 3 or 4) or unless the enemy has an anemic line they're just not going to really fight with anyway.

Doing less damage is also going to compensate for taking less damage.

Having 3*CLS for a BG will help in specialized combat situations and may be nice. And having an odd CLS to put into the scout slot will help generally speaking. But that is all. Most of the time it will *not* translate to total Coalition EW dominance in the early game, and in the long run it will make little difference as the CLS is an anemic scout.

As Richard said, mountain out of a molehill.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, January 24, 2023 - 11:46 am: Edit

[We ran out of time this past weekend after getting reserves moved. My job just doesn't allow weekday F&E, so we are probably waiting on combat until Saturday. I am optimistic about being in range of 1401, less optimistic about how combat will go as the Lyrans have 6 fighters to 20-something.]

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Friday, January 27, 2023 - 08:01 pm: Edit

I built some CLSs in the game Sam and I played a while back. I think I only built 3 or 4 total because they didn't really perform as well as they looked on paper. Initially I thought along the lines of Paul's argument, but in practice these ships are seeing action mainly over bases/Kzintai, where the Kzinti can just crank up SB EW to match. Zin bases can do that without losing much offensive power, meanwhile the Lyrans are fielding 2 COMPOT ships here to try to get a die roll shift. And if the alliance is smart (sorry Graham of Trent reads these) they can just direct the ones put on the line to bag an expensive scout for little cost to them. Ultimately I found it better to use the lower EW but cheap and plentiful DWSs.
Re: not wanting to waste converting CLs to BCs; despite having extra CAs, you're still going to want some STTs and CVs in the near future so not all of your CAs will become DNs. The BC is still 10/5 with CR10, which isn't terrible. And while CA to CC isn't a huge improvement, it is 1COMPOT for 1EP, and those CCs can still be converted to DNs later after they're seen a few battles...

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, January 27, 2023 - 09:34 pm: Edit

>> CCs can still be converted to DNs later

One disadvantage here is the CA/CC-->DN cost is the same (6 EP). So if a certain CA is converted to a CC and is earmarked to become a DN later, the 1 EP may be considered "wasted" in some sense (although the Lyrans still enjoy the enhanced factor until the DN conversion is made).

--Mike

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 09:57 am: Edit

Mike-
You're absolutely right the EP gets wasted. It's one of the reasons I don't go for the 3CA->3CC conversions turn 1 (I usually do CA->CC + DW->DWS at the SBs but that's my preference.) Some might say the Lyrans have money to burn, but I'd counter that's only for 15 turns.,.better to share those EPs with the cash-strapped Klingons, and/or invest in the cluster IMHO. EPs are EPs.
It is definitely a point to consider I think...losing an EP (and the conversion capacity) on a hull that is almost certainly going to be converted later. As the game goes on, if you can increase the attack factor by 3 (CA/CC to DN) it doesn't make sense to leave the CCs as-is long term. Plus obviously with the Lyrans CCs give no CR advantage like the CC conversions of other races.
Anyway it is a minor consideration that is nevertheless significant. For many players. The short-term gain, however insignificant, may be worth it. Thanks for pointing it out Mike.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Combat is over on CT1, and the turn is complete as well.

Hex	Round	Faction	EW	ComPot	Shift	BIR	BIR Roll	Tot.BIR	Rolls	%	Damage	Direct	Damage Taken
803	1	Coalition	4	97		1	0	2	2	17.50%	16.975	EFF[15]	2 fighters
		Alliance	4	90		1			5	25.00%	22.5	CW[22]	Cripple DD (-4)
	2	Coalition	4	97		1	-2	3	1	17.50%	16.975	N	17 Fighters
		Alliance	4	90		4			4	25.00%	22.5	N	6 Fighters, Cripple 3xDD [-2]
	3	Coalition	4	103		4	-1	7	2	30.00%	30.9	CLE[21]	10 Fighters
		Alliance	4	90		4			1	27.50%	24.75	DW[18]	Cripple CW [-2]
	4	Coalition	4	102		4	-2	6	3	30.00%	30.6	CLE[21]	8 fighters, Cripple FFK [-3]
		Alliance	4	86		4			3	30.00%	25.8	CA[24]
	5	Coalition	4	102		4	0	8	3	35.00%	35.7	BATS
		Alliance	1	18		4			3	35.00%	6.3	N	Cripple HDD
1003	1	Coalition	0	75	-1	1	1	6	2	25.00%	18.75	EFF[15]	4 Fighters
	4 DBB	Alliance	1	80		4			6	37.50%	30	Cripple BC
	2	Coalition	0	70	-1	4	-1	7	1	25.00%	17.5	CL[18]
		Alliance	1	74		4			3	32.50%	24.05	N
	3	Coalition	0	70	-1	4	0	8	3	27.50%	19.25	N	Cripple 2xCLE,SF, 2 Fighters (+1)
		Alliance	1	68		4			2	27.50%	18.7	BC[15]	Cripple DD [-1]

Actually a fair amount of death and destruction for CT1; both sides kind of got into a situation where it made sense to avoid being pursued (the Coalition) or wanted to burn fighters (the Alliance) and therefore three rounds of what looked like a one round battle occurred in 1003. In 0803, the Coalition shot escorts on the assumption that if they did, they might be able to give the Kzinti some trouble protecting carriers later on; COMPOTs were relatively even even with the BATS, so the Lyrans hung around making no effort to kill the BATS quickly.

Dice favored the Alliance, because the Lyran commanders were apparently caught unprepared by the fierce resistance and/or had too recently been basking in UV lamps in the fancy new third hull of the command ship. The Coalition averaged 2.125 and the Alliance, 3.375 over eight total rounds.

After combat, the Lyrans moved cripples back but still have lots of ships in 0803 and 1003; we'll see if the Kzinti feel like trying to do something about it on AT1, or if they can. On the upside (for the Alliance) the Kzinti have one disrupted and zero captured provinces (and the Lyrans didn't even manage to grab the northernmost neutral hex on the Kzinti border.

New construction moving north was the only strategic movement for the Coalition.