Jeff:

We've been using the online OOB that fixes some balance issues with later years; the Lyrans build 4CW on turn 1, but otherwise the same as you note here, which sounds correct for 2010 vanilla.

The cost break applies to all "war" ships. Most races have easy to identify CW, DW and FF classes that cost 5, 4, and 3 respectively. Overbuilds cost double the build cost. So an overbuilt CW will cost 10, an overbuilt FF cost 5.

As to variants, that depends on the SIT you are using. We're using 2015, and in that one the Lyrans have DWS available on turn 1, in addition to the SC you noted (which is a variant of the DD, not the DWS so it costs more). Other variants are available if you use SO, PO.

You can always build an FRD, MB and any number of PDUs. See 431.2.

By Jeff Johnson (Jeffro) on Friday, June 16, 2023 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Dang. I got that all completely wrong.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, June 16, 2023 - 05:57 pm: Edit

The DWS is also available on T1 and an FF can be converted to a DWS at each SB (437.21 allows this, even though the conversion costs 4 EP).

FF>DWS is one of my favorite early war conversions, when the Lyrans are still rolling in money.

By Jeff Johnson (Jeffro) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 09:26 am: Edit

Okay, to check and see if I have it right...

Klingon production for turn 1:

D7C (9), D7 (8), D6M for D6 (10), 8 D5 (40), D5S for D5 (8), F5Q (10), F5V for F5 (4 + 8), 2 F5E for F5 (8), E4 (2.5), 2 E4A for E4 (7) = 114.5

Convert one existing C8 to C8V at a starbase: 4 + 24 - 6 (free fighter factors) = 22

Total Spending: 136.5

Man, the Lyrans are really boring compared to the Klingons during this year!

By Warren Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 09:30 am: Edit

The F5E is not available until Y170 per the YIS on the SIT.

C8 can't be converted to a C8V until Y174 per the YIS on the SIT.

Otherwise it is correct.

By Jeff Johnson (Jeffro) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 09:35 am: Edit

Shoot, so close!

But thanks

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 01:08 pm: Edit

C8 to C8V is a major conversion so ca only be done at the capital.

Also a Free Fighter Factor is 2eps of fighters.

So it woul be 4+24-12=16

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 18, 2023 - 04:07 pm: Edit

On a relevant game point - I wouldn't waste 1 ep per E4A- just use a F5 as an Ad Hoc Escort.... same compot and harder to kill!

By Sean Dzafovic (Sdzafovic) on Monday, June 19, 2023 - 11:35 am: Edit

Personally, I'd still use the E4A for the escort bonus. YMMV.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, June 19, 2023 - 11:51 am: Edit

I also use E4s and F5s as temporary, ad-hoc escorts, and then mass produce F5Es in Y170 to catch up - though it can take a turn or two for the new escorts to catch up with all the carriers.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Tuesday, June 20, 2023 - 10:39 am: Edit

Although I am a Klingon fan I am not an E4A fan. IMHO it is just about always better to use plain D5/F5/E4 as ad-hoc escorts rather use E4A, particularly early game. In my experience, the population of E4A the Klingons start with are often relegated to support echelon escorts (where COMPOT doesn't matter) or are simply used as pin count.

The poor E4A are hardworking ships, don't get me wrong, they are just small and numerically weak.

--Mike

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Tuesday, June 20, 2023 - 11:15 am: Edit

The most fun I have had in a SFB game was a fleet action where I had a lowly E4A. I ran out of ADD rounds killing stingers which were ignoring me to go after my FV and the Fleet flagship, a C8.

The Hydrans just ignored me as all I had was P-IIs and ADD. I could go fast and erratic with impunity.

Now, onto F&E, I am like Mike E. The E4A is never built and are used for garrisons and compot.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, June 20, 2023 - 11:48 am: Edit

Don't get me wrong - some E4A's are good to have - but often the starting dozen or so they have is plenty.

i.e. you use the them to safely take cripple damage on,to avoid a ship being easily directed on in persuiit.

A fv+e4a+E4 group for example resolevs 9 damage plus the fighters in in a round - it can then retreat and the Kzinti are unlikely to get 22 damage (plus owed) to kill the group and 12 is still needed to kill the E4 (Ok 14, if it's an E4A).

I probably wouldn't waste 1 Ep on more E4A's thouggh 9unless they had all pretty much been killed and having a couple early on would help, before F5E's can replace them all)

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Tuesday, June 20, 2023 - 11:40 pm: Edit

I concur, I never build E4As. Tehre are enough in the starting OB for escort purposes.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 04:28 am: Edit

There is simply no game-play reason to build any frigate-based (defensive value '4') escorts that cost 3.5EP when one can buy a plane, ad hoc 3EP frigate (defensive value '5').

6xE4A=21EP
7xF5= 21EP

As outer escorts for standard carrier groups (heavy/medium/light) they take destructive directed damage as follows:

E4A (w/escort bonuses): 15/14/13

F5 (ad hoc): 16/16/16

Total Damage absorbed:
6xE4A: 90/84/78
7xF5: 112/112/112

One spends the same amount (21EPs), but gets one more pin count with the F5s. Salvage is also better with the 7xF5 = 6.3EP; 6xE4A = 3.75EP.

=============

F5E = 4EP
F5L = 4EP

As outer escorts for standard carrier groups (heavy/medium/light) they take destructive directed damage as follows:

F5E (w/escort bonuses): 19/18/17

F5L (ad hoc): 18/18/18

Salvage is also better with the F5L = 1.2EP; F5E = 0.9EP.

=================

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 07:49 am: Edit

The F5E does, however, have better offensive compot (4) than an ad-hoc F5L (3). Whereas the ad-hoc F5 has the same offensive compot (2) as the E4A.

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 08:25 am: Edit

Chuck

Why does the E4A has 3 different damage scores as outer escort for different types of carrier groups?

I thought directing an escort is always double its defensive value plus 1 extra point for the escort bonus, which makes 13 for the E4A. The other two numbers confuse me.

Any rule I overlooked?

Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Soeren Klein

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 09:37 am: Edit

@Chuck Strong: Two Questions

1) Will you email me the latest version of your economic form?

2) Email me the status (if any) of planetary occupation rules. Or call me if that's easier. To satisfy my curiosity and/or discuss.

I'm busy this week in the mornings, but otherwise am mostly available.

Thanks!

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 10:08 am: Edit

Soeren,

Directing on an escort is double its defensive value plus 1 extra point for EACH escort in the group.

F5V(E4E) -- direct on the E4E for 13 pts.

D6V(D5E,E4E) -- direct on the E4E for 14 pts.

C8V(2 D5E,E4E) -- direct on the E4E for 15 pts.

Fed overpadded CV-battlegroup of CVA/CVS(4 NAC,DWE,FFE) -- direct on the FFE for (5+3)x2,+6 = 22 pts!

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Dang,

Thx Kevin.

I must read the rules more carefully. Such a single word and such a big outcome.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen,
Soeren Klein

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Wednesday, June 21, 2023 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Your welcome!

On occasion, I still find such lines in old games I've played for years. I often have to check with the designer or others to find out if I've been playing it wrong, or if the phrasing is just odd, and everyone else has long ago adjusted for it.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Thursday, June 22, 2023 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Two other reasons I like D5/F5 as ad hoc escorts over E4A:

1. D5/F5 are "odd" ships and E4A is an "even" ship so the cost to repair per damage point is less, thus saving the Klingons a little money.

2. Once the battle is over and the group is disbanded, D5/F5 are just regular ships then available for a range of missions, where the E4A is a weak specialist escort that can't do as much.

--Mike

By John de Michele (Johndemichele) on Thursday, June 22, 2023 - 02:52 pm: Edit

The cost to repair an E4A is exactly the same as an F5 (i.e., 2 repair points for 1 EP), so you don't save any EPs there.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, June 22, 2023 - 03:23 pm: Edit

20 pts of damage.

Cripple 4 F5 frigates, repair cost is 4 ep.
Cripple 5 E4 frigates, repair cost is 5 ep.

Put another way, cripple an F5, repair cost is 0.2 ep per point of damage.
Cripple an E4, repair cost is 0.25 ep per point of damage.

Over the long haul, crippling your odd-numbered ships will generally save you money over your even-numbered ships. This is generally true for the 7 point ships, the 9 point ships, though the effect becomes less the higher up you go.

Watch out for oddities. The Romulan SNB and Hydran CR both are 5/2 ships. They cost a full 1.5 ep to repair. (Or did they finally fix this, I dunno.)

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Thursday, June 22, 2023 - 10:11 pm: Edit

VERBOTTEN