New general war game between Ted Fay (Coalition) v. Gary Quick and William Jockush (Alliance Team)

Full rules, all expansions, no optional rules.

House Rules: The following are exceptions and provisos.
1) No "special" raids, except blockade runs.
2) No E&S missions.
3) No diplomacy, except economic trade.
4) No SFGs. The Klingons replace the currently existing D7A with one D7C in the same fleet.
5) Interpretation of new "failure to secure" rule (537.11). Any two Gs (whether or not on the same ship) in the same hex as a captured planet prevents the auto-rebellion at one planet in the hex. Roll events (537.12) normally. Example: in a captured capital hex, one FTL (with 4 Gs) could secure any two planets in the system.

Special Gameplay Procedures:
-Playing on Cyberboard.
-Play to proceed via Slack (mostly) and possibly email.
-Slack roller will be used (or PBE games roller).

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, August 19, 2023 - 09:16 am: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 1

Income 92+5(diplo) = 97
Borrow 8
Available 105
Build:
TGC 8
3FF 7.5
FFK, FCR 12.5
Extra PT 5
Scout pods 6
17 PGB in 1401 51 (2 per planet, but 3 on the bottom major)
1PGB at 1502 4
Subtotal 94

Convert:
Count CD 3
Marquis CD 3
Kzintai BC>CVS 5 (FFF)
Subtotal 11

Spent 105, balance 0

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 21, 2023 - 11:49 am: Edit

FYI: CT1: No debt, full builds. Nothing too fancy. FRD, MB for Lyrans and an assortment of odds and ends.

Lyrans maneuver a lot this time. BATS 803 and 1004 are destroyed. LAS in lone space in 1003 saved by small reserve. Planet 1105 saved by large reserve.

11 ships were crippled. No big deal. Kzinti lost POL and E4A.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 21, 2023 - 11:53 am: Edit

AT1 combat: Kzintis attack Red Claw at 803 with some 30 SEQ. After they ran out of fighters they ran. They dropped some 36 drone points during the combat, crippled BC and CVS, and lost an E4A. I crippled about 10 ships (mostly CWs, plus 1*CC and 2*DW). Basic exchange of fighters for cripples.

But I wanted to hold my ground to keep Red Claw threatening 1401 on CT2. So I did.

In the end total eco damage was nearly equal, because he field repaired the CVS. Though I will pay out to repair, whereas he gets salvage for the dead E4A. So, overall the exchange was in his favor (not to mention 10 heavier ships out of action on CT2).

His retrogrades put 14 ships on Counts, 16 ships and the LAS on Duke's, 5 ships at 1001, 7 ships at 1202, 38 ships at 1401, 7 ships at 1502, a 4 ship reserve offmap, and a large reserve at 1704.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 21, 2023 - 11:57 am: Edit

CT2 Eco. Nothing special again, really. Still no debt. But if you want to look, here are the links. Includes CT1 eco.

Klingon Eco

Lyran Eco

Romulan Eco

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, August 21, 2023 - 12:00 pm: Edit

CT2 Raids: Just blockade runs (delivering Lyran PT with APT and new Klingon D5H initiates the "WYN shuffle" trading procedure.).

CT2 Operational: Planets 1506 and 1105 are attacked. BATS 1205, 1405, 701, and 703 are attacked. Mostly I dogpile Count's SB (902) and Duke's SB (1304).

The attacks at 701 and 703 include some of the cripples generated on AT1 from the battle at 803. Hey, they can still shoot! (Backed up by damage absorbing ships, obviously).

Still not quite done with operational. But mostly it will be non-reactable stuff at this point.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, August 23, 2023 - 05:07 pm: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 2

From last turn 16.75, but also 8EP debt
Survey roll 13+8=21. Still no prime team and only 3 Survey ships.
Income 82+4 diplo = 86
Interest 0.8
Repay debt 8
Available 93.95

Repairs 2 (Barony BC)
Builds:
TGC 8
2MEC 12
FCR, FFK 12.5
2FF, FKE 9
12PGB in 1401 36 (1-2 on each planet. Kzintai now has 8PDU, 4PGB. Other majors now have 4PDU, 4PGB. Minors have 2PDU, 3-4PGB).
1PGB in 1502 0 (Engineers)
PT 0
POL 0
Subtotal 77.5

Conversions:
BC => CD 2 (Barony, CDR)
BC => CVS 5 (Kzintai, FFF)
DF => SDF 1 (Marquis)
Subtotal 8

Remaining after econ 6.45

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, August 26, 2023 - 07:05 pm: Edit

On turn A2, the Kzinti set up a strong defense of Kzintai, at the cost of leaving outlying areas poorly defended. The Coalition responded by taking minor planets 1202 and 1504. The Kzinti have now lost every planet outside of 1401, except for 1502, which is pretty well defended (now 4PDU, 3PGB, MB, monitor). Of course they also hold the Marquis minor. And for the moment, 1401 is untouched.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, August 26, 2023 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 3

From last turn 15.8EP, and no debt for once
Income 70+4 diplo=74
Borrow 13EP
Available to spend 103.8

Repairs 36.5
Builds
3MEC 18
6FF 15
FFK 3
FCR 9.5
CD 11
DDV 0EP, 3FFF
Free: PGB(1502 with ENG), PT, POL
Subtotal: 56.5

Conversions:
2BC>2CC (Marquis, Barony, both CDR) 2
2FFK>2FEK (ditto) 1
Kzintai BC>CD 3
CVS slipway CVL>CVS 4EP, 1.5FFF

Spent 103EP
Remaining 0.8EP, 1.5FFF, and 13EP debt for next turn

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, August 26, 2023 - 07:17 pm: Edit

On turn A3, a big battle is brewing at 1403, where K and L are both trying to setup MB. Kzinti arrived in an attempt to spoil the party. The main Lyran fleet reacted in.

Kzinti hope to either kill the MB setups or, failing that, at least to get favorable attrition with their fighters.

By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Sunday, August 27, 2023 - 05:15 pm: Edit

HT3
Income: 74
Builds: TG, HR, HNG, 5xCU, SC Pallet, Mon, 2xPDU, 2xPGB, CMD Pt
Convert: HN>FCR, FRD>FRD+, 2xLN > 2xDE

Similar to TFH, Hydrans had a very quiet turn - establishing moderate sized fleets at the SBs, a large one at Hydrax, and a couple smallish RESV.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, August 28, 2023 - 05:01 am: Edit

No Hydran Carrier?

A FRD+ though - I can't remember the last time I saw one of those built.

I suppose with the Monitor it's a modest compot boost for Hydrans and wierdly perhaps safer than paying for 2 more PDU's over PGB's!

Do the Hydrans need FCR's though (a couple for emergecy escort duty yes, but they start with a couple )?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, August 28, 2023 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Yes, the advantage of the FRD+ is that it takes a full dirdam attack to kill it. Also it can't be killed by SAF. But against all that, it is less compot for the money. We are trying to figure out if that's an improvement over PDU or not.

Hydran FCR are worse than RN or HR. But the Hydrans have a lot of EP on turn 3. The FCR may be worth it for the fighters.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, August 28, 2023 - 11:02 pm: Edit

And, depending upon how things work out, the FRD+ may be able to move to another location and live to repair/fight another day?

--Mike

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, August 29, 2023 - 06:42 pm: Edit

Possible in theory, but unlikely in practice I think.

By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Wednesday, August 30, 2023 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Hydran comments:

1. I had never built a FRD+ prior to TFH/TFH2, but it seemed something interesting to test in the specific circumstance of Hydrax. Looking at different ways of adding compot for the big fight.

2. UH Carrier - I do not like very much. 8+16 for a 10 compot ship just doesn't make the cut for me. A conversion for a KN/LN would be better, but still too expensive for me.

3. FCR. Once the Hydrans get their large carriers (IC/ID), they can run out of fighters very quickly, so I like to add 1 or 2 FCR to the starting 2.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, August 31, 2023 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Consider you can pull a cruiser hull forward for 3 EPs. And in doing so you could instead sub the Tug for that cruiser...this frees up the original Tug sub you made to be real cruiser.

2 more PDUs instead of the PGBs...sac the FCR and FRD+ and command point to get them. If you have the window and money later you can upgrade the FRD and you can always convert the FCR later too

If you have the dough consider the SAR instead of the FCR (cheaper repair than the crappy CR frigate leader.)

Another consideration is the KN>SRG for use in the OM. The obsolescence rule was retracted for this ship making it useful again.

No Prime Team? You may not have listed it b/c its a freebie, if so send it OM with the SRG.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 02, 2023 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Gary wrote:
>>UH Carrier - I do not like very much. 8+16 for a 10 compot ship just doesn't make the cut for me. A conversion for a KN/LN would be better, but still too expensive for me.>>

The Hydrans can sub a LN for the UH on the build schedule, and then convert an existing LN to the UH and save a couple EPs if they want.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, September 02, 2023 - 04:59 pm: Edit

I thought there was some "no double Dutch" rule to prevent such shenanigans. But it doesn't matter. The UH is a joke.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, September 02, 2023 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 4

From last turn 12.1 EP, but also 13EP debt
Survey 32+12=44
Income 68+4 diplo = 72
Interest 1.3
Repay debt 1
Available 81.8

Builds:
CVS 12 (FFF)
TGC 8
2MEC 12
5FF 12.5
FFK 3
FCR 9.5
PT 0
POL 0
PGB (1502 w/ENG) 0
Subtotal 57

Convert BC => CD 2 (CDR)

Repairs 22.5

Total spent 81.5

Remaining 0.3

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Saturday, September 02, 2023 - 06:07 pm: Edit

I think (431.83) NO DOUBLE-DUTCH may only apply to substituting down and then converting the exact same hull. I believe it is OK to substitute down and then convert another pre-existing hull of the same needed type for the conversion. This may save some EPs in some circumstances, but consumes both a construction slot as well as a conversion slot.

--Mike

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, September 02, 2023 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Got it. FWIW, if it were up to me, I would delete the rule completely. Let them double dutch.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, September 03, 2023 - 08:19 am: Edit

"I think (431.83) NO DOUBLE-DUTCH may only apply to substituting down and then converting the exact same hull."

Correct. You can sub down the UH into a LN (for 4+2 instead of 8+16) and then convert a *different* LN into a UH (for 2+14 or 7 FFF). Heck, you could even convert the UH at a forward SB so it can immediately attack the Lyrans if you are so inclined.

I mean, yeah, the UH is largely terrible, but it is one of the only ways to get a full CV line out there early on for the Hydrans (i.e. PAL, [UH, 3 escorts], 2x[TGV, 2 escorts] or something; ADM gets an extra escort in the mix) for a dumb fight where you only lose a FF escort).

I'm pretty sure the "No Double Dutch" rule just exists to prevent the Lyrans from down-subbing a CA for the DN, and then converting it to a DN (as that is cheaper than building the DN).

By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Tuesday, September 05, 2023 - 12:00 am: Edit

Lots of hate from all on PGBs I'm not sure I am sold on PGB as an option, but it has been an interesting experiment so far, and has gone better than I feared it might.

I think FCR+ has been a semi-success so far - 2 rounds of combat and counting. We'll see how long Ted lets it live, but even when hit, it's taking the place of something else. Another one I am not sold on, but again something that has gone better than anticipated.


@Lar

Pulling a cruiser forward is an interesting idea. I may want to do that this turn, actually.

Thanks for heads up on SRG. Did not know that.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, September 05, 2023 - 10:19 am: Edit

I think the PGB thing is only working because William is willing to cripple his own ships before self-killing the PGBs (to a point, of course), and because I'm doing a Hydran first strategy. I've never seen a Kzinti player fight so bitterly over every hard point, even the small ones.

It has cost the Kzinti a significant number of hulls by spending money to repair everything, and to use ship slips as repair/conversion facilities. On the other hand, it *has* been effective at getting me to choose my battles more carefully and slow my advance down.

In all other games I've made significant raids on Kzintai and devastating the outer planets. However, because I anticipate that William will fight very hard over any hard point I've been much more systematic about crushing hard points as I go and squeezing in more slowly on Kzintai, even 1502.

The reason why the PGBs help is that they create a large EW advantage for longer, and a modest but noticeable increase in planetary firepower. That means I need to cripple more to do the same economic damage.

And THAT, in turn, has kept the Kzinti economy up. Even though I control all Kzinti hardpoints outside Marquis and 1401/1502, the home planets are so far untouched.

Last game I was WAY overcrippling units, exceeding repair capacity by a LOT and then struggling to maintain enough forces to keep up the offensive. Plus I was having to ignore infrastructure and go into maximum debt to keep up with the repairs.

So, William's strategy has had a significant effect. Overall, I think it has been worth it for him, and the Kzinti economy is in much better shape on AT4 that it normally is. Of course, as I said, the hulls not built has made a difference, but then again I've LOST more ships in the fighting.

It still doesn't balance, percentage wise, the relative change in coalition/alliance navy SEQ percentage losses to the Kzinti. However, it has slowed me down and increased the cost to reduce the Kzinti.

CT5 will be the first time I actually try to start reducing the Kzinti core world economy, but I have to be careful because I'm (rather obviously) doing a "Hydran first" strategy - so I have to moderate how much damage I take in the ZTO.

In my opinion, William's PGB strategy would not work if the Coalition selected a "Kzinti first" strategy. In this case, the Kzinti would lose more than they gain by buying PGBs, as the Coalition could afford the higher cripples/losses and still maintain enough SEQ and heavier ships to punish the Kzinti for "wasting" money on PGBs, rather than on ships as the game wore on.

Anyway, my sum up is this: The PGB strategy is effective if two things happen: 1) the Kzinti are willing to fight tooth and nail over hard points, crippling and losing ships in the process; and 2) the Coalition selects a "Hydran first" strategy. Otherwise, I'm dubious as to the effectiveness of massed PGB builds in the capital and 1502.

That being said, that is exactly what is happening here. William can chose 1, and I have obliged him with 2.

On the other hand, it remains to be seen whether the strategy is viable in the long term. The relative Kzinti SEQ loss will hurt later when the Coalition reaches the peak of its power in the war with the Federation. I can certainly see the argument that it *will* be effective, because if the Kzinti economy remains strong, he can afford ships when I have to turn my full attention to the Federation.

Unless I'm willing to take heavy losses, I seriously doubt that capital system will be devastated (outside of Kzintai) by the time CT7 comes around. But that doesn't mean it won't happen by CT8-10.

Anyway I will say one thing for sure: William has impressed me by bucking "standard doctrine" on PGBs and making something effective out of it.

-T