Archive through September 15, 2023
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Archive through September 15, 2023
Oh, one other point about this PGB/fight hard strategy. It fails if the Coalition fully commits to dropping damage and watching the Kzinti fighters burn and the Kzinti cripples ships. While the damage to the Coalitoin is terrible in terms of cripples and lost SEQs to DirDam, there is a "break point" where the Kzinti simply cannot take more damage to the fleet or else they risk losing the whole capital hex. It's hard to define the break point precisely, but generally it's about where the Kzinti get close to only being able to field a line of fighters and they no longer have ships to cripple without threatening a decent reserve to punish a full capital assault.
Once that break point hits, which I observed last game, the Kzinti have no choice but to self-kill those PDUs and devastate the planets. That event happens again and again throughout the system, because the resource are not there to take the damage on anything else.
However, *getting* to that break point is very painful and expensive. Thus, one must be cautious about doing it in view of what is happening in the HTO and the availability of a hardpoint (i.e. starbase or two) to fall back upon.
FYI: Yes, I know about maulers. The problem is that you don't have that many of them (really), not when Alliance policy is close to "Kill on Sight with Extreme Prejudice."
G ships help. I've had some modest success killing PGBs with G attacks. But the result is modest (a few), as I said.
You could direct on the PGBs at 10 damage per PGB, of course, but that is pretty much what the Kzinti want. You waste damage on directing on PGBs while the fleet sits pretty.
Honestly, I'm considering doing just that. It's expensive, and it will slow me down, AND it's much less efficient than fighting to that break point mentioned above - but the Kzinti don't want to fight over an unguarded planet. Because doing so makes the Kzinti hit that break point too fast.
While less efficient, that might end up being the way to reduce planets slowly over several turns, rather than taking massive damage up front.
We'll see. I'll give my additional observations on this PGB strategy as the game wears on.
Well, my 2p on PGB's....
...I think they do have a value on Major Planets - but Minor Planets are just not 'worth saving'.
Normally, a strong Coalition raid on turn 2 or 3 can often find the Kzinti not defending the minor planets if all 4 systems are attacked at the same time - there is no point in putting up a 50 compot line (plus say 24 or 30 in PDU's/PGB) over a Minor to be outshot by the Coalitions 90 compt line and always go less damage than the Coalition.
Certainly, a Hydran first strategy may allow those PGB's to live on some planets - which otherwise would be devatsatted.... so will be interesting to see how many do get devastated!
(Also worth noting, EW might make them slightly more valuable - as atleast the Kzinti should be able to win most EW wars then....)
Actually, Paul, that is not my experience. By fighting over the minors with 4 extra PGBs I'm left with the same dilemma - kill them with DirDam (not hurting the fleet) or not. If he's willing to fight and take damage on the ships/ship fighters, then it works.
Then again, jury is still out. As I said, I'll continue reporting on effectiveness later.
The Kzinti are not going to give up on a planet just because it's minor. It's still EP, and it's still a perfectly good place for fighter pilots to die.
Alliance turn 4 op move is done. The Hydrans are killing Lyran BATS 212 and 413. The Kzinti have created seven battle hexes: BATS 1507 and 1707, conquered minor planets 1001, 1202, 1105, and 1504, and a space battle in 1304. The last two are both also pinning battles, in that if the Kzinti were not pinned out, they could attack the base setups/upgrades in 1403.
The Coalition have two 7-ship reserves in 1403. The reserves are not very strong. But neither are the Kzinti fleets in several hexes, so the reserves could have considerable impact.
You may have missed the point...(or I might have done 
)
... if the Kzinti have only 45 ships (so about 55 Equivalents say) defending 1401..... you can't put up a 'full line' at every system under attack.
Even if you put a modest amount of Static Forces outside the Homeworld System, your ability to defend all four systems if the attacker allows the damage to fall, disappears very quickly.
So - do you defend all 4 planets with a sub-optimal line - or 3 with the best line possible (and allow the 4th to be devastated easily?).
Yes, burning fighters might make the trade more even, but the Kzinti need to make sure they don't run out of ships for key planet defence - or allow the Coalition to strip 4 PDU's off the capital - allowing the fighters to find a new base (so no owed) and rinse and repeat.
To be fair - once 1 or 2 SB's have died and 3 or 4 turns of builds have happened, the Kzinti may get to the point where they can defend fully all four systems and so at that point, the PGB's may have greater value.
Early on though - they just can't defend all four systems though - so why waste Ep points on a minor planet?
HT3
Income: 63
Builds: Pal(a), RN, 3xHR, FFT, 3xCU, PT, 2xPDU, 2xPGB, PRD(offmap via Eng)
Convert: HN>FCR, L-DNL > H-DNL, 2xLN > 2xDE
Hydrans were anticipating taking out Lyran border bases (SB, 2xBATS), until a final review found a lurking (in range to the SB) Klingon resv that would tip the scales. Hydrans will settle for a couple easy BATS, and prep for Hydrax defense.
Paul, I'm not pretending that the PGB are a magic bullet. But adding 2PGB to each minor increases their compot/EW (including EWN) from 18/3 to 24/5. The solo major also grows from 36/5 to 42/5. If the Coalition attacks 3 minors and a major, this has to help.
Quote:... if the Kzinti have only 45 ships (so about 55 Equivalents say) defending 1401..... you can't put up a 'full line' at every system under attack.
Yes. And that is precisely what I did last game - and why I forced the breakpoint.
Problem gets worse if you have a large Kzinti fleet present (like they do now). Then they can dump fighters all over the place until breakpoint.
Probably the most effective way to deal with this tactic is to come in with great force (lots of reserves). Attack a minor planet and bag the PDUs/PGBs there. Then fight the Kzinti without the support of PGB/PDU while they lose fighters and cripple ships. When they get near breakpoint then you go to other planets and watch the PDUs/PGBs melt.
If the Kzinti choose not to fight to breakpoint over undefended planets, then go to the next planet and rinse and repeat.
Which does, of course, force you to bag the PDUs/PGBs - but - you will not have to "waste" 20 damage points devastating a planet.
Dunno. Might also have to consider direct devastating a plaenet. Doing so means I can go in and devastate a planet or two and then leave. This way I don't have to take the pain of fighting to breakpoint, and still hurt the economy. When you come back on future turns you put the hurt on the already devastated planets with only RDFs on them. The price, of course, is that you're doing nothing to the Kzinti fleet while going through this process.
So, overall, I'm finding the PGBs effective. Not sure it's worth building *as many* as William has done, but there is a definite argument it's worth doing.
Again, time will tell.
On the Hydran front, a large assault on Hydrax is brewing. The Hydrans also have a strong fleet, with most of their DN, CC, and CA.
On the Kzinti front, large fleets are going to clash in 1503. The Coalition need to, and probably will, claim the hex in order to protect the in-progress BATS-to-SB upgrade in 1403. The Kzinti do have a lot of fighters, and the advantage that they can afford to retreat if they so choose.
The 1503 battle turned into a bit of a nothingburger. The Kzinti did kill a DWS, and also "killed" a Lyran command point and fired off fewer drones. There was a crip trade of 9.5EP(Z) versus 13.5EP(K+L), which may not even be favorable because repair timing and CDR both favor the Coalition.
Hydrax is yet to be resolved.
Hydrax was a bloodbath.
I expected to strip the remaining PDUs and PGBs, kill the starbase, and then leave.
However, Gary was down to only 70 fighters or so (out of 250), and I had deep reserves left. I wanted to see whether he would start crippling ships and keep the system (at huge cost) or simply abandon the system so that I end up taking 617 a turn early.
We fought almost to the bitter end in 31 ROUNDS of combat. The vast bulk of the Hydran navy was crippled by the end, Hydrax Major was devastated, and he was down to just 35 fighters or so. However, he had *just enough* reserves left that once I got down to a mere 8 uncrippled ships (3 of those being E4Ts), I decided to beat feet. I spent a staggering 34.2 EPs on drone bombardment alone. I lost a lot of ships, including TGA+AL, TGA+AN, DN, C5, 4*D6M, and a bunch of lighter ships that I self killed due to autokill or just the need to take damage without crippling remaining ships. He lost RN and 3-4 FF ships. I also killed the starbase, the MON, the FRD-V, 4*PDU, and 4*PGB.
One of the interesting things about the battle that even made this bloodbath possible was my luck and success with the SAF and G attacks on the SB. I scored 2 SIDS with the SAF and 2 more with G attacks (through the 2 defending Gs a round). Combined with the 4 done using the mauler, and a fifth round to maul the SB to death outright, the SB went down early. That brought down his compot enough that it became feasible to do more than break and run.
The Coalition repair bill is an astronomical 188 EPs. However, the Hydran repair bill is 100 EPs - and - those ships are going to stay unrepaired for at least several turns. Coalition stuff will all be repaired by CT7 for the likely invasion of the Federation.
He was litterally crippling SAV-FCR-HN groups at the end just to have something to take damage on. Crazy stuff. Had I had another 10 ships I would have taken the system! Then again, maybe he would have left.
I don't see Gary being able to keep the capital on CT6. So in all likelihood 617 will be Coalition property next turn.
In the meantime, I still had enough units in the region that I doubt Gary will be able (or willing) to try to take on my forward-deployed MBs or the FRD parks. I anticipate AT5 to be mostly re-deploying and getting ready to fight to the bone before I take 617 at last.
Then again. Maybe not. AT5 to come...
-T
Thanks Ted.
For those on the edge of their seat about the fate of the FRD-V(heh).......It lasted 8 rounds T5 on top of 2 rounds on T4. Well past what a PDU replacing a PGB would have. Still, was it worth it?
For comparison, if it had been drone points - 8 rounds at 0.6 = 4.8 vs actual cost of 8 EP. While interesting, I probably would not do again.
Instead, I will likely spend on the KN>SRG survey ship conversion pointed out earlier by Lawrence.
PGB overall did very well, and I think my split of PDU/PGB will continue to be my approach going forward (as it also was in TFH).
Hydran Turn 5
Income: 43
Builds: 3xHR, 3xCU, PT, PRD(offmap via Eng), FPO restock
Repair via slipway: TG, DE, HR, 2xFCR, 2xCU, HNG
The Hydran fleet is crippled, but they stand the bloody and unbowed owners of 0617.
I'll also point out that the Hydrans don't have DBB. Plus it ate up a DirDam attack after those 10 rounds of use. I think it was a good investment.
Yeah, and it was a mauler attack too. And the 6 fighters ate 6 damage. Definitely worth it.
Kzinti economy, turn 5
From last turn:
0.45EP, but 12EP debt
Survey roll 44+10+2=56
Income 67+4diplo+1scrap=72
Interest 1.2
Borrow 3 more, now 15 debt
Available: 73.95
Repairs CVS, 2MEC, FKE 6.5
Builds
CVS 12 (FFF)
3MEC 18
FCR 9.5
7FF 17.5
PGB (Kzintai, now 8PDU+5PGB) 3
PGB (1502, ENG, now 4PDU+5PGB) 0
PT 0
POL 0
Subtotal 60
Convert
Kzintai CVL>CVS 4, FFF
BC slipway BC>CD 3
Subtotal 7
Total spent 73.5
Remaining 0.45
"Repair via slipway: TG, DE, HR, 2xFCR, 2xCU, HNG"
Never heard of this before - what is it? (Might be a rule in TO I suppose???)
(Unless it's Depot Repair and those shops have moved in the relevant boxes along the track - but wouldn't be able to come out of that until turn 8 I think at the earliest).
PGB's for the Capital planet are definately worth it (if you can't afford PDU's) - as is the FRD+V I think.
Question is - what sort of defence can the Hydrans muster on C6 - and can all the crippled ships (that are worth saving - I can well imagine the order to retreat NOT going to CR's )safely get into the Old Colonies?
(When that PRD will be very valuable!!!).
"Repair via slipway"
Rule 455.2 in TO allows you to replace production of a ship on a turn's production schedule in exchange for being able to repair a ship of the same base hull type.
Quote:Question is - what sort of defence can the Hydrans muster on C6 - and can all the crippled ships (that are worth saving - I can well imagine the order to retreat NOT going to CR's )safely get into the Old Colonies?
The answer to the question is now definite, as Hydran operational is complete for AT5. In order to prevent my reserves from moving in the HTO, Gary avoided all contact with Coalition forces – other than a raid by an LGE to kill a hapless picket FF in province 515. All of the cripples went offmap, other than filling up the 4 slots of the depot (which I am sure he will make liberal use of over the coming turns). Depot now has PAL, DG, LN, CR. (Which is the answer to the CR problem – you don’t sacrifice the crippled CRs, you put them in the depot).
Hydran Home fleet in 617 consists of PAL, LM, DG, 2*HR, 2*CU, {TGB,FCR,DE,CU}, TG+0 (fighters fully refilled), GRV, 2*FCR. In addition to this, a reserve is present in 215 consisting of LGE, DG, 3*KN, CR, 2*CU, HNG, PGS. In addition to THAt, a second reserve is offmap consisting of D6M (captured), 2*HR, 2*CU, HNG. This amounts to 39.67 SEQ (including the 46 fighters), of which 1 is a fast ship bonus – and the battle force will have an additional 18 fighters from FCRs - so I’d really count that battle force as 41.67 “ships” of a fighting force.
Just as an FYI, the entire remainder of the uncrippled Hydran navy is on SB215, and it consists of LB, CR, 2*CU, HN, 2*SC, HNG, FCR, LAV, FHL, 2*PTR, SAV, LAS, 2*SAS, 2*PV, 3*POL. 19 and change SEQ in all. However, I only have 12 ships in range of 215 (a token defense force on SB411) because I had to consolidate what was left of attacking forces after the 617 bloodbath. So, SB215 is guaranteed to be alive on CT6.
I will be able to bring to bear somewhere on the order of 115 SEQ on CT6, depending on exactly what I repair at the FRD parks. Of that, 71 “ships” (counting FF, but not fast ship bonus) can reach the 03XX hex row (sitting on MBs in 916). So, the Hydrans do not have a chance of retaining hold of 617 on CT6 unless I seriously flub up.
On the other hand, I also cannot kill SB 215 this turn, which isn’t good because on AT6 he will no doubt repair as many ships as he can and plop them all down on SB215. That will make me pay the price to kill SB215 on CT7 or CT8 – though again at the cost of the Hydran navy. But frankly, it may be worth it. That’s a lot of economic damage to the Coalition – which has to be repaired quickly in order to be able to fight the Feds – and the Hydrans have the luxury to take 6+ turns and the depot to nurse the fleet back to health slowly. It also makes me chew through all those fighters multiple times, which is always what the Hydrans want.
Anyway, a very interesting game. Super aggressive play by both sides. Lots of pow-pow.
Addendum to the above. William pointed out correctly that the Hydran depot is offmap (I had misremembered that only the Lyran and Kzinti depots were offmap). Therefore, there being no valid cripples available in the offamp this turn, Gary could not move the cripples into the depot this turn. All Hydran cripples are therefore currently offmap and none in the depot or elsewhere.
It seems perverse that if the ship was destroyed it could be in the depot already, but since it was only crippled it is not yet there.
Slipway repair - sounds a useful rule - especially if you hold the capital but have no SB!
Hydrans look like a pretty 'mixed' force that is left - but does have some strength left.
I am guessing the pain will need to be repeated - as leaving 617 for another turn (to avoid the pain) will mean another dozen or so repaired ships will be avaiable - even if the Hydrans have to then defend 617 and 215 then.
So - 617 has to fall on CT6!
Slipway repairs are TO's gift to the Alliance. If you are in the habit of crippling your H or Z fleet, they are a really big deal. If you are doing a lot of repairs, you probably can't afford many builds anyway, and the rule lets you do even more repairs.
Actually, 617 will be easy this CT6.
Repairs were not really possible, and the Hydrans chose to focus on the defense of SB215 (not excessively so, but they guaranteed its survival). While he did use the slipways to repair, he also built 5FF in what will be the slipway's last hurrah.
The forces at Hydrax are:
Hydran: ADM, 2*PT, PAL, LM, D6M, DG, 4*HR, 3*CU, {TGB,FCR,DE,CU}, 4*CU, GRV, 2*FCR, TG+0, TG+S, HNG.
Lyran: ADM, PT, 2*BC, 4*CC, 4*CW, CL, 4*DD, FF, CLS, 2*LAV, 2*SAV, FTL, 2*FTS, FHL
Klingon: ADM, 2*PT, C8, FD7, 3*D6, {LAV,AD5,F5E}, {CVT,AD5,F5E}, {LAV,AD5,F5E}, 2*D6V, D5D, 3*D6D, 2*SAV, F5L, 3*FTS, FHL
The Coalition have overwhelming advantage in both hull tonage and an advantage in free fighters (76 vice 58+27FCP).
And this was after the reserve hit 617.
617 is definitely falling.
His other reserve saved BATS 618 from a BATS busting force and killed an F5L and an E4 for nothing in return.
In the ZTO, I ignored 22 SEQ of Duke's fleet in 1304 - so they can have some fun on AT6 if they want. Instead I pinned the capital and put in a large force at 1502, which should be sufficient to take that planet.
Damage is heavy to both sides, but so far the dice have favored me (this time) so I will likely take the planet.