Well, I don't thik the Hydrans can be too unhappy.

The ships crippled escaped.

The Aux ships escaped.

The Hydrans got 1 more turn of builds and accelerated getting some crippled ships back into action.

Yes - they will take afew more cripples (depending on how long they fight far) - but 1 turn has been bought!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 10:32 am: Edit

Indeed, Paul is correct. But I don't see that as advantage or disadvantage. After all, the rebuilding of the shipyards are also delayed a turn. Because the Hydran fleet was crippled I was able to send all repairs and new construction to the Federation border. It's been a long time since I've done this but now I will have about 150 SEQ to cross the Federation border on CT7, which can only be good for the Coalition.

On the other hand, the butcher bill has been heavy. I've lost more SEQ than in other games (but so have the Kzinti and Hydrans) and the extreme repair costs have inhibited my infrastructure building and exploded my debt levels. So, that's good for the Alliance.

So far, I'd call this game "interesting." I have yet to be convinced one way or another whether William's hyper-aggressive defense strategy will work. I will say this, Gary and William have done a good job implementing it, as the price paid has indeed been heavy to get to where I am at right now. And normally the Kzinti homeworld planets (but for Kzintai) are devastated by now - and yet they remain untouched as of AT6. Which is an achievement.

But, again, the jury is out. Much of that Kzinti extra income has gone to PGBs and a hefty repair bill. Just dunno. We'll just see where this leads us long term.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 10:49 am: Edit

CT6 is ended. 617 is now in Coalition hands after a single round where a CU was exchanged for an F5E and fighters on both sides. BATS 618 was saved, as indicated above. The other two Hydran planets (416 -Lyran- 519 -Klingon-) are captured. Hydrans have 3*BATS (114, 315, and 318) and SB (215) remaining. 58 Hydran SEQ are onmap, and I have no doubt that plenty of repairs will increase that on AT6 (2*PRD, FRD, and SB are available to the Hydrans offmap).

In the ZTO, Coalition ignore Duke's in 1304, pin 1401, and attack 1502 in force. As usual, combat was intense and heavy, but luck against the Kzinti was very much on my side for a change. Coalition losses included TGA+AL, TGA+AN, D6S, D6M, TGP+N, F5L, F5, E4A (latter 3 being self kills), and 20 crippled ships. May have forgotten something here. Kzinti losses included some 3 crippled CV groups and a crippled CC. In addition, in pursuit Coalition killed a crippled DDV and an uncrippled FCR added to it to try to save it on pursuit. Other Kzinti units killed during the battle included the COE, a MB, 4*PDU, 5*PGB, MON, and 2*SAD. As I said, brutal fighting - which has been par for the course.

At 1401 the Kzinti came out to party on approach. We exchanged an FKE for a SF in DirDam and each gave up fighters. Then the Coalition left.

I left 105 SEQ in 1402 to give the Kztinti now holed up in 1401 a headache. In addition I have 33 SEQ in uncrippled warships on 1403 (now a Lyran SB(6) and a Klingon BATS(0)), along with 9 cripples (I field repaired 24 EPs of essential ships), and 33 SEQ of Coalition units in 3 moderate to heavy Lyran reserves. Including pickets, I out-pin the Kzinti SEQ by roughly 40 SEQ - which is not that much all things considered. Pretty much everything outside the capital is captured or disrupted. The capital and its province are untouched (Marquis provinces are disrupted by Coalition military raids).

The other thing I did this turn is distribute all of the cripples from the Hydran capital assault, putting almost all of them in striking distance of the Federation.

Klingons have a puny, easily pinned reserve in 1105 (mostly ships I didn't move during the turn, plus a few new con ships). They have 3 reserves (one strong, one moderate, one weak) in 1807.

Klingon FRD park is in 1811. Lyran FRD park is in 1611. PRDs were previously built at 1611 and 2518. Additional cripples are at PRD parks, as well as along the Fed border, 1716, 2318, and 1509. I put 17 new construction ships (good ones) in 2416.

Overall the total SEQ that can go over the Fed border on CT7 is roughly in the range of 150. Not great, but not anemic either.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 11:06 am: Edit

I thought 1502 had every chance of holding. But the actual result was a disaster for me, no question. Among other things, it increases the difficulty of communication with the Marquis area.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 11:12 am: Edit

To reflect the extreme degree of fighting, I'm posting the SEQ losses here. These are all lost units for the whole game so far.

Klingon: 2*BATS, MB (lost setting up), MMG, 3*PT, C5, D7C, 9*D6M (1 captured and converted), D7, 4*D5, 5*F5L, 11*F5, 11*E4 (2 captured and scrapped), 3*F5E, 2*E4A, D6D, 4*D6S, F5S (captured and scrapped), D6J, D6G, 4*TGC, F5T, 3*E4T, PTR, SAF, 4*BP (1 REBUILT), DP, 2*TP. In addition, 8 Klingon ships (mostly F5 hulls) are in the depot. 65 SEQ in all (74 temporarily).

Lyran: 2*BATS, PT, 3*DN, 2*DNL (1 captured and converted), BC, 4*CW, 2*DW, DD, 3*FF, 2*DWS, 2*JGP+G, 3*TGC, 2*SAF, 2*BP (1 REBUILT), AP. In addition 2 ships are in the depot. 25 SEQ in all (27 temporarily).

Kzinti: 2*SB, 8*BATS, MB, 12*PDU, 5*PGB, BC, 4*CD, CL, DD, FFK, 6*FF, DDV, 8*EFF, FCR, SF, CLG, TGC, 2*POL, LAS, SAS, 2*SAD, 3*MON, COE, 2*BP. In addition, 2 ships are in the depot. 30 SEQ in all (32 temproarily).

Hydran: 3*SB, 6*BATS, 34*PDU, 4*PGB, 3*RN (1 captured and converted), 2*CR, 4*CU, 2*HN, PGS, 2*POL, CU, FTL, 2*FTS, FHL, 3*MON, FRD+V. 18.5 SEQ in all.

101 SEQ in net fighter/warship lost by the Coalition. 50.5 SEQ in net fighter/warship lost by the Alliance. Because the capture ratio is in favor of the Alliance by 2 (captured DNL not offset) the net is 101 SEQ lost by the Coalition and 48.5 SEQ lost by the Alliance.

Net SEQ differential is 52.5 SEQ lost by the Coalition - which is staggering and frankly surprises me. This is about 1.5 turns of Coalition production.

I haven't even gotten to the cripples yet.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Some interesting data about this game:

Initial Klingon SEQ		Initial Lyran SEQ
247.33		123
CT6 Klingon SEQ		CT6 Lyran SEQ
327.83		185
Initial Kzinti SEQ		Initial Hydran SEQ
137.5		107.33
CT6 Kzinti SEQ		CT6 Hydran SEQ
160		142.5

Change in Klingon SEQ
1.361864715
Change in Lyran SEQ
1.520325203
Change in Kzinti SEQ
1.178181818
Change in Hydran SEQ
1.327680984
Change in Coalition SEQ	CT6
1.41449518
Change in Alliance SEQ	CT6
1.243720132
Initial Coalition Naval SEQ Advantage
1.51260058
CT6 Coalition Naval SEQ Advantage
1.720295567
Initial Coalition Naval SEQ Advantage Including Federation initial SEQ released to fight Coalition (130)
0.987994558
CT6 Total SEQ advantage including Federation initial SEQ released to fight Coalition (130)
1.205592635

It is unclear what these numbers mean exactly. And their meaning is especially unclear because I have never collected similar data in other games. Perhaps I will do so going forward as a way of measuring one metric of performance of Coalition versus Alliance play.

I am reasonably clear that in many games I'd have roughly 5% more net SEQ advantage than I do now (assuming the net ship kill differential was half of what the actual reported value was above, on account of a less aggressive Alliance posture). Whether that makes a difference in the long term remains unclear.

Oh, one other thing - these numbers are skewed because they don't include AT6 changes (production and losses) - which will be a more accurate reflection of the data. I'll report those later now that I have it setup on my Excel spreadsheet.

Overall, even though this is really intuition and not a data-driven conclusion, I'd say the Alliance aggressive defense gambit is worth it. SEQ advantage drives control of the map, especially when war with the Federation is under way - and control of the map in turn drives economic loss and gain by both sides (which in turns speeds up or slows down SEQ changes).

Part of this SEQ change is my fault. I chose to self-kill a bunch of these ships to pay for DBB as well as to prevent capture of key units, or to ensure that I was victorious in a hex. However, I now think this is a bad idea. SEQ loss is inevitable, but the Coalition can keep it down if they choose (except maybe in the initial stages of a capital planet assault).

So, overall, I'm going to call this one slight advantage to the Alliance so far. But the Coalition is by no means out of it.

Anyway, interesting game. Lots of pow-pow!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, September 16, 2023 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Well, Alliance is cerftainly up on Captures - and again some nice hulls have been captured.


The real effect of turn 1 to 6 will be - how good is the turn 7 Federation invasion.

Can the Coaltion overrun the Feds before the Feds get enough builds to slow them down?

With 1401 still in Kzinti hands - it perhaps does limit the raids they can do as the Barony gives them more areas to reach.... but more Ep's for the Kzinti probably is much more valuable.


What trouble can the Hydrans create from 215 though?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 02:30 pm: Edit

@Paul: Hard to say. It depends on how fast the Hydrans can repair a good fighting force. Right now, their ability to do damage from 215 is almost non-existent (both Lyran border BATS are down and he just doesn't have enough units to threaten SB411). Next turn he would have a threat sitting on 215 - but it is not clear to me how much of a threat it will be.

As for the Fed invasion... Again, dunno. I'll have 150 SEQ crossing the border on CT7, but again it is unclear how much of a difference it will make. It's what I'd call "decent" but not overwhelming. Mostly it will be tearing down Fed bases, not reaching deeper planets (but for the usual low hanging fruit on the border).

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 6

From last turn 14.2EP, but also 15EP debt
Survey 56+12+2(PT)=70
Income 63+4diplo=67
Borrow 10EP more, new debt is 25EP
Interest 1.5
Available to spend 89.7EP

Repairs 33
Builds
CVS 12 (FFF)
TGC 8
2CM 10
MSC 8
FFG 2.5
2PGB (Kzintai) 6 -- total now 8PDU, 7PGB
PT 0
POL 0
Subtotal 46.5
Conversions
FCR(Barony, CDR) 6.5
FFK(Barony, CDR) 0.5
MSC(Kzintai) 3
Subtotal 10

Total spent 89.5

Remaining 0.2

Kzinti are about to hit a wall with their debt. However this problem is not unique to them.

By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Sunday, September 17, 2023 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Hydran Turn 6

Income: 30 (+18.9 carryover last turn & salvage)
Builds(15): Main Shipyard, PRD(eng)
Repairs(26): LB, TG, 4xRN, 3xDG, 2xHR, LAV, 2xSAV, KN, LNG
Convert(8): KN>SRG + survey slot

The Hydrans do not view their fleet as currently a threat. They remain a mishmash of ships fleeing from the 0617 fight. Repair yards are fully occupied, and a new Main Shipyard is being laid down. This turn there was enough to feed everything, though next turn the decisions could be tougher.

Overall, Hydrans are about where expected given Ted's Hydran first approach and the lengthy battle over 0617. 0215 is the next and final on-map Hydran strongpoint. Money is going to remain the primary Hydran issue for a while - perhaps the rest of the game.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Friday, September 22, 2023 - 10:13 pm: Edit

On turn 7, the Klingons destroyed the Fed 3rd and 7th fleet starbases. There was also the first serious strike on 1401. Kzintai and its minor were not attacked. But in the other three systems, the Kzinti lost 17 PDU and 4 PGB. No planets were devastated. But the defenses took a major hit, and the Coalition is likely to return.

In return, the Alliance killed 10 D6 variants, 2 prime teams, an MMG, and Lyran 3CC and DN.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, September 23, 2023 - 03:50 am: Edit

Well, that looks like a pretty succesful 'kicking the door in' on the Feds as it leaves no hard points in the Western Fed Theatre.

I assume the Marquis SB did live though?

Silly question - was there stacks of owed points on some of the Kzinti planets - so spending a round to devatsate them wasn't felt to be worth it?

(As a minimum, it's 2 or 3 Ep's per planet the Kzinti get for another turn!!!!)

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Saturday, September 23, 2023 - 07:37 am: Edit

Marquis was not attacked. There were a fair number of minus points.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Saturday, September 23, 2023 - 08:07 pm: Edit

@Paul: Yes, there were minus points left behind, but not that many. Perhaps 25-30 or so.

However, I did not stick around because I was carefully monitoring the damage I was taking and I wanted to be able to repair all of it on CT8. Additionally, I didn't want to be fighting through minus points and still killing the PGBs still defending the planets (at least 4 PGBs per planet).

As for the Klingons "kicking the door in" - yes, I consider it a success, though the Federation economy is barely touched (7 disrupted provinces, like 2-3 captured, no planets taken). In my view I wanted to knock out those starbases before Federation Home fleet could reinforce them.

I did not attack Marquis SB, or any Marquis targets. I didn't want Fed 4th coming in to the party, and I especially didn't want their SEQ within range of hex 1403. For, you see, I am upgrading a Klingon BATS in 1403 to Starbase (BATS(0)-->SB(0)) and I wanted to be absolutely certain I could utterly block the Alliance from reaching 1403 on AT7.

AT8 I will have a lot more options, supported by two SBs and hard points that will be very difficult to take even if relatively lightly defended. Obviously no decisions there yet. It depends on how heavily he defends Marquis and the capital.

Federation 4th fleet SB is still utterly safe for CT8. But I will turn my attention to it soon enough... though I suspect I will be paying a pretty penny for it.

In the HTO I pinned the last remaining 215 SB and its reserves there. I then killed two of 3 remaining BATS. Gary didn't come out to play, so I left without firing a shot.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 09:38 am: Edit

Kzinti economy, turn 7

From last turn: 4EP, but 25EP debt
Survey 70+13=83, but PT is wounded!
Income 69+4diplo=73
Borrow 9 more
Interest 2.5
Available 83.5

Repairs 9.5
Builds
17 PGB 51. 12 on the three side majors and 5 on minor planets.
CM 5
MSC 8
FFK 3
POL 0
PT 0
Subtotal 67

Conversions
Barony 2FKE 1 (CDR)
Kzintai MSC 3
Marquis CD 3
Subtotal 7
Spent 83.5
Balance 0, and 34EP debt

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 09:46 am: Edit

Federation economy, turn 7

From last turn: 0.25EP
Survey 0+31=31
Income 200 at 75%, so 150+4diplo=154

Builds:
DN 12
TG 6
3NCL 15
FF, 2FFE 11
2PT, POL 0
POV 3
MB 10
Monitor 8
2 SWAC 3
Activations 8
2CLV 8 (FFF)
4PDU 32 (2306, 2509, 2610, 3210)
PRD 5 (2610. Crips incoming from 3rd fleet SB battle.)
Subtotal 121

Conversions
Earth 2LSC 8
Earth 2DE 2
2nd COV>CVL 7
5th CA>CC 2
Subtotal 19

Total spent 140. 14.25 remaining.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Wow - never seen 17 PGB's built before in a turn!

What defences were left in 1401 before the PGB's got added?

Was any planet left with no defences?

Surprised also about the PDU for 3210.... that probablyt will not be needed to turn 10-11??


3 FF's could be overbuilt instread of the PDU and spending 10 Ep's....

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 01:08 pm: Edit

We built 18PGB on turn 1.

We were down to 4PGB on each side major. This raises them to 8PGB. One minor was raised from 1PGB to 5PGB. Another was raised from 3PGB+1PDU to 4PGB+1PDU.

He could attack 3210 this turn if he is willing to de-neutralize Orion. Of course that would entail giving me the E4. But it might be worth it for him.

There is one minor with a single PGB that we are not improving. Essentially, we triaged it as we couldn't afford enough PGB to defend everything.

By Gary Quick (Northquick) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Hydran Turn 7

Income: 32 (+0.9 carryover)
Builds(15): Main Shipyard, Minor Conversion(eng)
Repairs(17.5): LM, LC, RN, DG, TG, 2xDE, FCR, PGS, CU, SC

Quiet build turn as our focus remains on recovering the Hydran Navy and putting down a new shipyard.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 04:29 pm: Edit

Alliance turn 7 is done. The only excitement was that the Hydrans killed the EB SB.

Feds and Kzinti could probably have killed BATS 1807 but chose not to as it would have allowed the Klingons and Lyrans to relocate five reserves there, vastly complicating the Fed defensive problem on turn 8.

The Kzinti did retake major planet 1502, at least for the moment.

Fed MB setups are underway at planets 2306, 2509, 2610, and 3210. These are the same planets where an extra PDU was installed earlier.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 08:25 pm: Edit

ECO, CT8:
Klingon Eco

Lyran Eco

Romulan Eco

These Excel files also include all prior turns, in case someone is interested in seeing the details of what I did.

Highlights.
Started B10#2. B10#1 is at a mere 12 out of 40 points, because rolls have been so low since turn 3. B10#2 started with a "3".

Lyrans upgrading the SB in 1403 from SB(6) to SB(12), plus a FSD.

Lyrans work on 3 MiSY (Maj Conversoin, DW, CW) using a convoy and 2*COE.

Lyrans build second VP pod and some new escorts to go with it.

Repairs: 26 EP Lyran, 55 Klingon.

Klingons go hog-wild on CDR conversions, spending 13 EPs to convert base hulls to D6M, DS, D5V, AD5, 2*F5E, 3*E4S, D6D.

Full builds, including a C8.

Activations: Last turn and this turn I only activated 2*D6. Just not enough EPs! All the F5s are already activated. I have 1 E4, 3 E3 and 6 E3A in mothballs, and I will get around to activating them eventually.

Debt is heavy but manageable. Klingon debt stands at 96 after paying of 17 this turn. Klingons were hit with 0.5 extra exhaustion last turn (which they can ignore), but the 17 paydown was required to not have a full turn of extra exhaustion hit. Lyran debt stands at 60 after repaying a mere 3.

Not sure what I'm doing this turn, really. Aside from a supply tug designation in 2915 to connect Klingons and Roms for CT9, I have options but not sure what to do with them yet. Will take analysis.

Crystal ball:

HTO: Killing the SB only cost the Hydrans LM, 2*RN, and TG+S. Which is still 4 cruisers and a 4 point scout. However, 215 is still heavily defended. Maybe I'll cruise in to try to bag a cruiser? Dunnno.

ZTO: one strong reserve and one medium reserve offmap (19 SEQ in all). Pretty much the same defenders are present in the Marquis and 1401 as last turn. I can do a meaningful capital raid or kill Marquis stuff, but not both probably. Hmmm.

FTO: I just don't have a lot in range of his stuff, and it's well defended by interlocking reserves. Hmmm.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 10:08 pm: Edit

My experience in past games has been that the Feds and Kzinti can hold reasonably well on turns 8-9. They will lose something. But they won't get clobbered.

Romulan arrival changes things, to say the least.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, October 03, 2023 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Coalition turn 8 combat is complete. The Feds lost 6 BATS and minor planet 2915. The Kzinti lost one BATS and minor planet 1802. They still have BATS 1902 and the Marquis SB. The Hydrans lost their remaining on-map BATS. They still have their SB near the Old Colonies.

The four Fed MB setups will all succeed, thereby marginally strengthening the defenses of four planets.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, October 04, 2023 - 02:21 am: Edit

Any new raid on 1401?

Can any of those MB's be safely ugraded to BATS?

Can the Feds afford to dump/self generate 4 PDU's on any of those key outer planets?

...and just not to ignore them - whats the strength of the Hydrans on Map forces now look like (over and above the SB!)?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, October 04, 2023 - 11:55 am: Edit

No new raid on 1401.

All of the MBs can be safely upgraded to BATS, probably.

Feds can easily afford to generate the PDUs on the key planets.

Hydran fleet strength is still quite low, but steadily coming back up.

The Coalition too far too much damage early in the game - specifically in lost ships. Partially this is my fault for self-killing.

The Coalition only barely maintains SEQ parity with a slight advantage. Since this is CT8, this puts the Coalition way, way behind. IMO ultimate Coalition victory is now unlikely. Prediction is that the UFP flag willy fly over Romulus on AT24.

But I will keep fighting until this game is fully completed. Alliance players, too, are not immune to making mistakes...

Besides. People give up WAY too early in this game, IMO.