20 PDUs and Turn 6 are the problem. Too late if you are attacking the Feds on Turn 7. If you delay the attack on the Feds, take the PDUs this turn and take the capital next turn (and hope your opponent directs on you this turn - in fact I would offer up some juicy Lyran BCs just for that, maybe a couple of Klingon tugs (but not the drone pods)). If you are short on repair capacity up there, things may get dicey. But if you retreat adjacent south and stay there, and the Kzinti are in the capital, you should be able to bottle them up on 6A. You may have to temporarily abandon 1502, and fresh repairs in the Barony can likely wreak some havoc, but scrape together a couple of reserve fleets and you should be fine.

I will say that attacking the Feds T7 with a Kzinti fleet in being on 1401 is no party.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, August 22, 2023 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Well, if 20% of the Kzinti are already crippled, that perhaps does give the Coaliton a small chance of taking it?


As most have said though - the timing is just wrong for the Coalition - they can't afford the pain now - which 2 turns ago might have been acceptable.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, August 23, 2023 - 08:07 pm: Edit

What Alan says is mainly what I was thinking. There is no rush to open the front against the Feds and limited war is a given at this point. We could have hung around on T5C a round or two more to hit the PDUs and soften it up but we had taken a little more damage in the south than we wanted and decided to not take a couple of battle lines worth of losses on top.

I think we can still get there. The Alliance dice have been streaky

By Charles W Popp (Captnchuck67) on Sunday, September 24, 2023 - 09:31 pm: Edit

can you do a double down build(substitution)? ,ie instead of building a C8 can you build a F5.A double
downbuild?

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 06:13 am: Edit

I don't see how that would be considered a "double down build" since the Klingon OOB notes specifically permits that downgrade substitution.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 10:43 am: Edit

Earlier versions of the ruleset I don't think allowed it, but in the current rules, yes, you can direct downsub a C8 down to an F5.

By Charles W Popp (Captnchuck67) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 01:31 pm: Edit

im talking about above the 2 anydowngrade. In the Klingon OOB for example that is not listed as a legal one

By Charles W Popp (Captnchuck67) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 01:32 pm: Edit

yup see it now

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, September 25, 2023 - 03:04 pm: Edit

I think this is allowed when using PO via 450.4. I do not think that the base FE2010 game allows this type of substitution?

Although I have observed that in a number of the FE games played here online players do use the "house rule" of "can swap a frigate in for anything bigger" -- which is close to but not exactly the same as 450.4.

--Mike

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, October 10, 2023 - 01:46 pm: Edit

With respect to the Kzinti Capital situation above, I think there's no question that trying to take the capital on T7 is a mistake. Even if you succeed, you are going to be 2-3 turns behind against the Feds. This looks (devastated outer planets, still 20 PDU) like a Hydran first, so hopefully you have Hydrax. If that is the case, redevastate the planets T6, see if you can fight any Kzinti, if they don't come out, okay, and mostly just position yourself to overrun the Marquis area and Fed space on T7.

If you -don't- have Hydrax, then that's another problem, but it probably doesn't change anything. It's too late to take 1401 now.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Friday, November 10, 2023 - 06:30 am: Edit

Is it really true that the Hydrans have no ships they can turn into extra survey ships when they start their part of the war?

By Warren Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, November 10, 2023 - 06:39 am: Edit

The Hydrans can convert a LN or KN to an SR. The question is can they afford the trade off of a taking a ship on map and moving it off map. Research done by Dale Fields on the topic of adding survey ships suggests that it does pay off. However actual in game data is currently not available in a large enough data pool to support his research at this point in time.

I would suggest that if you do add an extra survey ship for the Hydrans you send a Prime Team off map for survey duty with it at you will get an faster return on investment per my research on this point.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, November 10, 2023 - 07:06 am: Edit

IIRC, the "obsolete hull" restriction on survey ship conversions was rescinded at some point, if that's what you're referring to.

By Warren Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, November 10, 2023 - 07:19 am: Edit

Jason, you are correct. The obsolete hull restriction was rescinded in the latest version of SO.

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Friday, November 10, 2023 - 08:40 am: Edit

Did not know the obsolete hull restriction was removed. We house-ruled around it anyway, and in our current game (C31) the Hydrans built a single SR and sent it off-map in the early game. That ship has been responsible for ~95 survey points, which has yielded ~30 EPs or so.

If you know the capital is going to fall, seems worth it to me.

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Friday, November 10, 2023 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Thanks, Jason and Warren. I must have older versions of SO. I wasn't aware of the change.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Sunday, December 03, 2023 - 02:14 pm: Edit

What does "Jumbo Eighty" refer to?

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Sunday, December 03, 2023 - 04:19 pm: Edit

It's 80 counters of Heavy and Jumbo Auxiliaries.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, December 23, 2023 - 11:33 pm: Edit

HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!!!

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, December 29, 2023 - 07:52 pm: Edit

In theory, the game lasts about 35 turns. How many games actually last that long? Assuming most don't, about what turn is it typically obvious which side will win? I had one game that ended after turn four because it was clear that the Klingons had no way of stopping the Hydrans from activating the Federation on turn five. However, I assume something game deciding happening that early is not common.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, December 30, 2023 - 03:44 am: Edit

John

I know of 2 games out of over 100+ games which got to turn 35.

So very few.

Real life, luck or I think most people believe that the 'game is over' and not worth playing - so take your pick!

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Saturday, December 30, 2023 - 12:52 pm: Edit

My sense is that relatively few F&E GW games go the distance to 35 turns. And for those that do, hats off to the dedicated players who want to finish what they started.

Due to the nature of the game with the early Coalition advantage and the ramping Fed strength as the game goes on, the Coalition has to make some real progress early or it can become effectively impossible for the Coalition to win.

For example, if it's the end of turn 6 and the Coalition has not taken the Hydran or Kzinti capital yet AND the Coa has a lot of cripples, one could reasonably surmise that the Coa probably has a low chance of winning. As of turn 7 the Coa has the Hydrans, Kzinti, and now the Feds on their TODO list and are not in a position to hard push with all those cripples.

Now that's not to say that situations can't turn around, or that mistakes can't be made that change the game complexion. But again, with the Fed ramp the Coa time to make hay is early. If they can't do that, it is hard to win. So some Coa players might just concede the game -- for better or worse.

On the flip side if the Coa could take both Hydran and Kzinti capitals by the end of turn 6, and then be ready to attack the Fed's on turn 7 or 8, some Alliance players might also throw in the towel. The Fed ramp is not strong enough or fast enough to counter a really strong early Coa position.

That all being said, there are a whole range of intermediate possibilities as compared to what is described above that different players may assess differently. And, many players are able to determine who the winner is of an F&E GW game without playing the full 35 turns.

--Mike

By Warren Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, January 12, 2024 - 07:47 am: Edit

So the following thoughts occurred to me from a Q&A Discussion Question.

Gorn Off Map Conversions

In theory the CLs or DDs or SC could be converted before activation provided the Gorn player wanted to spend the money prior to the ship actually being activated. The 2 EP activation cost would still have to be paid for said ship when actually activated if not paid prior to activation. However, I'm not aware of any game where the Gorn player actually did such a conversion prior to activation.

Given that the Gorns are a schedule starved Empire, meaning they have money, but not enough shipyard to spend it, this may be a good consideration. 5 of the 6 ships could be converted as follows: CL to CL variant or BC or CC, DD to BD or BD variants, and SC to BDS.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, January 12, 2024 - 10:40 am: Edit

The challenge with anticipatory upgrades is the mechanism by which a particular ship may become eligible for activation is random. So, the Gorn player really may want to get the #1 CL into their fleet as a CC and might want to pay for that upgrade early when funds are available. However, there is no guarantee the Gorn player will ever actually roll the needed 1 (for example) and thus may never get that particular ship activated. So that CL upgraded to the CC might then remain in the Gorn off-map area potentially for the entire game and never see any on-map combat.

--Mike

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 12, 2024 - 11:46 am: Edit

Ignoring Mike's valid point - is the issue with the Gorn Mothball fleet is that the shoips are in very poor condition (hence the 2 Ep Fee rather than 1 Ep)?

Not sure you could convert a poor condition ship prior to activating it?

It probably WOULD therefore require a rule addition to allow it, should the powers that be think it was a good idea?

Best guess would be though, that they would Dead Horse the Idea - tactics and doctrine etc!