Ahmed

I have the printed (and PDF) versions of F&E2010 - it looks like the D5V is an omission in the Klingon build schedule - not a ruling, but I would go for 1 D5 for D5V substitution - as that mirrors the normal carrier buulds permitted for other empires.

(and that follows through with the Expansions IIRC)

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Saturday, May 25, 2024 - 04:48 pm: Edit

I'll send a note to the Warbook forum.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, May 27, 2024 - 05:23 am: Edit

Ahmed

Fighers on a Ship Directed are normal points which need to find a new home or be lost.

The half factor is either taken as damage, lost (without compensation) or finds a new home.

For example - - first round of a battle (and no Hydran ships have empty hanger bays for other reasons) - 28 damage is done.

24 Directs and kills the RN - 4 goes on the homeless fighrers and so 0.5 of fighters is lost - leaving nothing owed.

If a ship had some some empty bays and 28 damage was done - that Half a Fighter factor coulld be kept.

If 29 damage was done - an extra 0.5 of fighters fron elsewhere could be killed so full value is gained.

In other words - you need 2 or more 0.5's to be able to use it for anything!

By Ahmad Abdel-Hameed (Madarab) on Monday, May 27, 2024 - 06:07 am: Edit

Thank you, that was very well explained.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Monday, May 27, 2024 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Is that triangle explanation from Paul a ruling? I would have read it differently.

(501.232) In combat, triangle factors on multiple carriers of the
same side can be combined to be counted as full fighter factors.
Half factors of any fighter types can be combined into a single
fighter factor. A single half-factor triangle is simply ignored.

So if, for example, there are 2RN and no other carriers, that means 9 ftr in the fleet. If one of them gets directed (for 24 damage), I would then have a fleet that can hold only 4 ftr, as the extra triangle is ignored. I would therefore assume 5 homeless ftr.

But if there is a ruling somewhere, I stand corrected.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, May 28, 2024 - 02:06 pm: Edit

Ignored is not the same as becoming homeless.

I don't think a formal ruling has been made - but you can't increase the amount owed if homeless fighters exist?

So 28 damage in the example would leave 4 owed, not 5.

Might be relevant if out of supply etc.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, May 29, 2024 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Here is how I end up with 29 damage taken and 5 owed:

The fleet beforehand had bays for 9 fighters. Therefore, it had 9 fighters.

The fleet after has only 4 fighters.

We now turn to the homeless fighters rule:
(302.53) ATTRITION UNITS: A player using Directed Damage
against a unit is not required to destroy its fighters or PFs [see
(501.7) and (502.45)]. However, any fighters/PFs remaining at
the end of a Combat Round when their support unit is destroyed
or crippled must be transferred [see (501.6) and (502.44)] to other
units able to carry them (in the same hex), or they can be used to
satisfy further damage requirements in that Combat Round. Exception: PFs may transfer (502.44) to a base/tender in an adjacent hex (arriving at the end of the Combat Phase). Fighters and
PFs become “minus points” (308.2) only if transfer is impossible.
In effect, it is “transfer or die” at the end of EACH Combat Round.

At the end of the combat round, there are 5 fighters with no place to land. Hence -5.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, May 29, 2024 - 05:29 pm: Edit

The fleet still has 4.5 Fighters left.

You may not be able to use the 0.5 (as it is ignored) - but it is still there.

Hopefully this will not happen very often - but I can't see how the Hydrans can claim the 5th fighter should be an owed point - as the other 1/2 fighter does not have to die.

Again - it's all due to there being a difference between homeless and 'ignored'.

If the ship is Out of Supply - and joins up with another ship with Half a factor - both half fighter factors can be used.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Thursday, May 30, 2024 - 10:18 am: Edit

OK, I can buy that.

By Jon LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Sunday, June 02, 2024 - 10:12 am: Edit

I have a few questions on TO 658.0 Sudden Storm

Q1 Is the Federation at Limited War (Economy or otherwise) on their 1st turn?

Q2 When do the fleets release?

ISC Wars 624.0 Gathering Winds seems like it could be played with Sudden Storm as a Sub Scenario. What do you all think of that as a way to balance the ISC - Unless they build the border stations decisively, ISC can then choose what to do Pacification or conquering.

By Jon LaRusso (Soulcatcher) on Saturday, June 08, 2024 - 12:11 pm: Edit

This is my best guess:


168F Fleet Released:
All Reserve Markers for all fleets all sides, but generally where the fleet markers are in OOB
Lyrans Released: Home, Red Claw, Enemies Blood
Kzinti: Duke, Count, Marquis, Home
Klingon: East, North, Northern Reserve, Southern Reserve, Home, Tholian Border Squadron(only to attack Tholian Neutral Zones or Tholian territory), 1st IWR(only if Kzinti, Hydrans and Federation are all attacked)
Federation: All
Hydran: All but OC
Tholian: All (starts neutral until attacked)
Gorn: All (Home must move to NZ or ISC Space above xx09 line)
Romulan: All (Special note for KRs: 652.4 KLINGON DELIVERY must trace a path happens during strategic movement) (Home must move to NZ or unsurveyed space or ISC Space below xx09 line) | No Kestrel Deliveries planned this turn, but future deliveries only available if 12 hex ownership path can be traced from Klingon to Romulan space
Tholians503.3, 604.15, 318.5) starts at War with Coalition, but not allied yet (it is assumed Tholian joins Alliance when They or the Federation gets attacked on Turn 1, or when the Coalition violates the Neutral Zone or attacks Tholian space)
169S Fleets Released:
Kzinti and Lyrans: Baron and Far Stars arrive during strategic movement and are released (there is a case for
Klingon: IWR turn 2(if the turn 1 was released)
Hydrans: OC deployment includes Capital
Romulans: IWR(must have attacked Gorns and Federation a prior turn)

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, June 16, 2024 - 08:38 pm: Edit

Looking to confirm my interpretation of the supply route rules.

The Klingons have ships in 1402 and 1405. The Kzintis have ships on the starbase in 1304. 1403 and 1404 are empty. I believe that the ships in 1402 can trace supply through 1403 and 1404 because 1403 is adjacent to the ships in 1402 and 1404 is adjacent to the ships in 1405. Is this correct?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, June 17, 2024 - 02:44 am: Edit

John

Yes - Coalition Supply can go from X to 1405 - through 1404 and 1403 as no enemy forces are there and into 1402.

(Note, some ships - can't remember which offhand, but might be Monitors - those ships which can't react, may not have the ability to oben supply through an adjacent hex - so above above it's nornmal ships!).

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, June 23, 2024 - 05:18 pm: Edit

A question about 430.24: Abandoned Occupation.

To receive the point from the abandoned province, the originally owning player must "control" a neighboring province. Is a disrupted province sufficient to meet the "control" requirement or does "control" require uncontested ownership of the adjacent province?

The originally owning player can then attempt to occupy it during a later turn to receive two points. Must the occupation be maintained (i.e., must the province be permanently garrisoned), or once it reverts to full production does it stay that way without requiring an ongoing garrison?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, June 28, 2024 - 10:06 am: Edit

Refreshing the above questions.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Saturday, June 29, 2024 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Jay, I think the first question actually has to do with supply lines; if supply to the adjacent province is blocked then the abandoned province EP probably cannot be claimed (by anyone.) More often that not you can trace some kind of supply to the controlled province although if disrupted it would depend on where the enemy unit is. Although not specifically stated, one can infer this from the rule (410.343) as the presence of enemy ships blocking supply is what would create the situation in which one province could provide its disrupted EP to more than one grid.
I haven't seen any rule specifically treating your second question, but if in fact the original owner has to post garrisons in every recaptured province then I've been playing wrong for awhile now...
I could be very wrong, but this was my reasoning for dealing with the situations you are inquiring about.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Saturday, June 29, 2024 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Can someone post an example of this issue?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, June 30, 2024 - 10:58 am: Edit

Per your request,

In our game, the Klingons/Lyrans had captured most of Kzinti space. However, the Kzintis recaptured planet 1001 on a Coalition turn. Province 901 is disrupted because of a ship that retreated off of 1001 into 1002. Province 903 was previously captured but was left ungarrisoned after the Coalition movement phase. The ships in 1001 can open a supply path from Province 903 through hex 902 to 1001 and then back to the offmap area.

Is the disrupted province 901 sufficient to allow the Kzintis to claim the point from the abandoned Province 903? Or to receive that point must they have full control of Province 901?

If on a future turn the Kzintis are able to occupy 903 to bring it back to full economic production, would they need to continue to garrison that Province? Or once brought back to full economic production does the province stay that way even without an ongoing garrison?

The second question often applies to Province 0111. If the Hydrans destroy the battle station in 0212 and capture the province, the Lyrans will almost certainly reoccupy it and bring it back to full production. Would the Lyrans need to continually garrison this province to keep it at full production?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 30, 2024 - 12:36 pm: Edit

John -


430.24 - As the abadnonded province 903 is next to a Kzinti Controlled province (contested does not stop it being Kzinti Controlled) the Kzinti may be able to claim 1 Ep - as 430.24 is met.

The only relevant issue is is 903 in the supply grid?

IIRC, the Supply path can always leave a hex in effect* - and so supply from 903 can go to 902... and 1001 counteracts the Coalition ship in 1002 - so it would appear that Yes, the Kzinti can claim 1 Ep for province 903.


* - Which is why provinces next to the Off Map area always can provide the Contested Province Ep's to the off map area.


On Lyran province 0111 - nope, you don't need a base or ship in a own province to own it.

So if on turn 3, the Hydrans destroyed 212 - and retrograded fully from it (and there are no Coalition forces in it) - it would be an abandonded Lyran province on Coalition turn 4 - a Coalition ship moves through it on C4 (so is no longer Abandonded), but doesn't stay in it - the province is now fully Lyran owned until an Alliance ship enters the province.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 06, 2024 - 11:42 am: Edit

Sam - replying here : -

"When does a reserve fleet have a flagship? (507.22) requires that it have a flagship capable of commanding the fleet, and (203.742) says that it can't leave its flagship behind. So which of these are legal for a Klingon reserve fleet passing through a hex with a single Kzinti FF:

1) C8 E4, leaves behind E4.

2) C8 E4, leaves behind C8.

3) C8 4E4, leaves behind C8. (This seems to be prohibited by (203.742), but the fleet still has a legal flagship after the C8 is pinned)

4) C8 4E4, detaches an E4 prior to movement, leaves behind C8.

5) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, leaves behind C8.

6) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, C8 is crippled by an E&S raid prior to movement, and DW 4E4 move.

7) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, C8 leaves by reaction movement, and DW 4E4 move.

8) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, detaches the C8 prior to movement, and DW 4E4 move.

I expect that only 3 is illegal, but it's unclear enough that I thought I'd ask. (203.76) indicates that a flagship is "designated" - but if that happens prior to reserve movement (and "...immediately lose reserve status" indicates it might), then if 4 is illegal these kind of decisions might have to be made whenever a potential flagship leaves a reserve fleet for any reason."


507.13 - Well it says desginated - and one could interpret as 'thats the Flag, thats the Free Scout and ships 1 to X are the normal ships.

The only legal Reserve Fleets when they are created if you don't designate the the C8 are 1) and 2) (and so normally, it is obvious what the Flag is - but 1) and 2) are both Legal**).

So, the C8 has to be the designated Flag for examples 3 onwards - - You can't remove a ship* from a fleet and designate a new flag - so leaving an E4 from the reserve fleet to allow an E4 to become Flag can't be done (Example 4).

So two points.

1) When the Reserve Fleet is created you should say "the Flag is ship X'.

2) The rules do need an addition though or clarity : -

Exampple
6) - A new flag after the E&S mission occures should be appointed and excess Command Rating ships immediately removed
7) - A new flag after reaction movement and excess Command Rating ships immediately removed
8) - Can't be done, as only the C8 was a legal flag.

** - Some forces may also exclude some ships from being a Flag, as 507.22 refers to the actual Battle Force and this requires the Flag to be one of the three highest CR ships - but examples 1) and 2) could use either still.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Saturday, July 06, 2024 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Yeah, see, that kind of highlights what I'm unsure about. 507 implies that the flagship of a reserve is known at all times, but (203.72) says that any portion of a reserve can move (so the flagship is designated on movement). At the very least, 4 should be legal based on (203.72) - otherwise, the only ship that could be sent off on its own would be the flagship.

My reading of the rules is that:
- a flag must be present when the reserve is designated, capable of commanding the fleet and of the empire who the marker belongs to
- a flag must be designated when the fleet begins to move, capable of commanding the portion of the fleet that's moving
- the reserve must always have a ship which is capable of commanding the remaining ships

For instance, there is no rule that indicates there would be an issue if a reserve was C8 5DW 5E4 and the 5E4 reacted out, so at least in the current rules it's not clear that the rules around forming a reserve are relevant at any point after it's formed.

The other plausible reading is that a reserve fleet must always meet the requirements of (507), but then there are other consequences: for instance, C8 DW E4 can't leave behind the E4 to satisfy a pin.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, July 06, 2024 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Sam

Yes

The other two relevant rules also need to apply (Min 50% of the Reserve Fleet that moves as a reserve gets to the target hex and 51% of the fleet is the same Empire as the Reserve Fleet counter).

Using the DW's in the example probably doesn't help in making it simple in what is allowed?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 04:01 pm: Edit

In July 2019, there is a lot of discussion as to whether a defender can voluntarily apply damage to an already devasted planet under 508.214.

Example: A Kzinti planet is captured by the Klingons. It is then liberated by the Kzintis. Before it has fully recovered, the Klingons come in again attempting to recapture it. In the ensuing battle, can the Kzintis voluntarily apply up to nine points of damage to the planet in addition to using three points to eliminate the RDF?

Chuck argued that since nine points did not redevastate the planet, it was permissible. However, several others argued that this seemed to violate the spirit of the prohibition against voluntarily redevastating a planet.

Was there ever a formal ruling on the question? If there was, I am not finding it.

Note - Chuck's comment (Q&A Discussions, July 22, 2019 @ 3:58pm) does not appear to be a formal ruling, just part of the discussion.

We should address this during our update of Basic Set F&E later this year. -- FEDS

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 07:12 pm: Edit

I'd accept this if the recovery clock is also reset (price to pay) …

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, August 19, 2024 - 01:01 pm: Edit

"
By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Sunday, August 18, 2024 - 10:36 pm: Edit

There is potentially an error in 203.55, which has led to a point of contention between Karl and I. 203.55 says in part, "may move a number of units equal to the difference in Command Rating out of the hex". This seems incorrect: surely it's ship equivalents, not units? Otherwise a CVA could move out for a 1 CR difference.

Second, there's no reference here to the earlier counting of ship equivalents - arguably implying that if DN FF are in the same hex as 40F5, the DN can still leave. Indeed, 40F5 would only pin one frigate if a regular fleet came through (a DD could leave by itself, a CA could bring 4 other ships with it, potentially in separate stacks until the whole fleet is passed).

I think it's obvious that this is not the intended interpretation, but Karl pointed out that "common sense" does not necessarily apply, so we should ask anyway. It might be good to reword the rule as a modifier on 203.50 (assuming my interpretation is correct).
By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Sunday, August 18, 2024 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Ah, to clarify my ramblings into a question: can LGE use 203.55 to move out of a hex with (Hydran, 5SEQ, CR 9) LGE TG-S HN (Lyran, 7SEQ, CR 8) STT VW DW SC HFF FF 6IFF?"

The rule I don't believe has been updated since Carrier Groups ceased to be (and so in the old rules - a CVA would not be able to leave on it's own as it's part of a group).

It perhaps does need some clarity though - as why would a Hydran CC (or any empire CC ship) for example be able to move - when a LGE (or DNL - and the same could be said of Fast Cruisers and CR8 v CR7) can't?

It probably does therefore mean 'a single unit ship' - but I would suggest that it excludes all True Carriers from that definition, which normally operate in a group (so a Fed CVL for example might be able to continue to move - a B10 probably makes it more difficult though).

In other words - a formal answer is needed and perhaps queried if the wrong answer comes back.