525.23S - Should not "2 EW: Reduce attack factor to 2 points." be "2 EW: Reduce attack factor by 2 points."?

525.23Z - Should not "2 EW: Reduce attack factor to 2 points." be "2 EW: Reduce attack factor by 2 points."?

The way the current rules read the attack factor is 2 and not 8.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Thursday, July 04, 2024 - 06:30 pm: Edit

When an empire loses its capital, are they able to purchase personnel (Prime Team, MMG, DIP) in the period during which a new shipyard is being built? Rule (511.33) on interim production states "Tug pods and anything else not listed cannot be built without a shipyard." Personnel are not strictly listed on the list, but then they are not something "built." For that matter, if an Admiral is killed would the empire still get a replacement at the provisional capital? Not an urgent question I just can't find a reference that would suggest an answer to this question in the existing rulebooks.

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FEDS RULING: Unless overruled by ADB or the existence of other prior rulings, key personnel (ADM, MMG, Prime Teams, Diplomats) used in F&E can be produced or replaced normally and without delay at a replacement capital. The presence of an actual shipyard has not bearing on the development of these key personnel.

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Quote:

ADMs: (316.32) REPLACEMENT: Whenever an admiral is killed, retired (316.229), or captured (316.229), the owning player is entitled to a replacement in the Production Phase of his next turn. The replacement admiral will be placed in the capital hex;

PTs: (522.10) GENERATION: Each turn, each empire receives one prime team if it is at war (at war, not just on a wartime economy unless specifically noted in the rules). The Federation receives two prime teams if they are at war, one (starting from the start of a scenario) if they are at peace.

MMGs: (321.13) PLACEMENT: All Marine Major Generals are initially placed in the capital shipyard hex and move thereafter in the same manner as Admirals (316.0).

DIPs: (540.12) CREATION: Empires that are “at war” (not just wartime production) can field additional diplomatic teams by creating them at prestigious universities on the capital.
(540.121) One additional diplomatic team can be created each year, in either the spring or fall turn, during the Production Phase.

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By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Friday, July 05, 2024 - 10:41 pm: Edit

When does a reserve fleet have a flagship? (507.22) requires that it have a flagship capable of commanding the fleet, and (203.742) says that it can't leave its flagship behind. So which of these are legal for a Klingon reserve fleet passing through a hex with a single Kzinti FF:

1) C8 E4, leaves behind E4.

2) C8 E4, leaves behind C8.

3) C8 4E4, leaves behind C8. (This seems to be prohibited by (203.742), but the fleet still has a legal flagship after the C8 is pinned)

4) C8 4E4, detaches an E4 prior to movement, leaves behind C8.

5) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, leaves behind C8.

6) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, C8 is crippled by an E&S raid prior to movement, and DW 4E4 move.

7) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, C8 leaves by reaction movement, and DW 4E4 move.

8) C8 (Lyran)DW 4E4, detaches the C8 prior to movement, and DW 4E4 move.

I expect that only 3 is illegal, but it's unclear enough that I thought I'd ask. (203.76) indicates that a flagship is "designated" - but if that happens prior to reserve movement (and "...immediately lose reserve status" indicates it might), then if 4 is illegal these kind of decisions might have to be made whenever a potential flagship leaves a reserve fleet for any reason.

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Upon DESIGNATION of a reserve fleet:
(507.22) LIMITED SIZE: It must have a flagship (302.32) capable of controlling the entire fleet as a Battle Force.

Upon DEPLOYMENT of a reserve fleet:
(203.72) STATUS: The Defending Player can move any portion of a designated Reserve Fleet, even a single ship, but the portion that does move must all move together. The moving portion of the Reserve Fleet must include a ship capable of commanding that portion (303.0). The non-moving portion loses its status as a Reserve Fleet.

So your above question needs more detail. Which ship was designated as the flagship prior to movement?

By Daniel Glenn Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Monday, July 22, 2024 - 09:14 pm: Edit

Chuck;

Sorry, been busy and did not see your response on FSDs.


(445.0) ... What is actually happening is that a supply line is being set up to stockpile spare fighters...

Very clearly the intent of the rule is a supply line, because the intro of the rule specifically says so. That supply line costs 6 EP; and if moved still costs the full 6 EP to build in the new location.

This is different from (454.0) because all PFs and all F111s (under pay as you go) must be paid for individually. There is no supply path to be built, because there is no annuity of PFs or F111s to direct through this supply path. That makes the PF and F111 depots themselves cheap at just 1EP each. They're a great bargain because of that; since the PFs are bought separately. FSDs are not.

Moving a FSD is already expensive. You're planning to make the FSD more so for zero improvement to the rules. Some will say that 1 EP is not a lot, but to the Alliance in the early game 1 EP is a huge difference; and to the Coalition it is a huge difference in the end game. So once more, I dissent and would like the entire ruling pushed up to SVC.

By Sean Dzafovic (Sdzafovic) on Tuesday, July 23, 2024 - 02:39 pm: Edit

As per (316.14) admirals must be assigned to a ship with the highest command rating in the hex.

Can they function on a lower command rating ship if the original ship is crippled?

Example: In an SB assault, the Klingons originally have 2 C8s, and 5 D7Cs. If the C8s are crippled or destroyed, can the admiral be used on a D7C now acting as the battle force flagship? Or are they stuck with the now useless C8s?

As a follow on to the previous question, could you use 2 command points in this battle? One can be used in conjunction with the admiral, and the other has no effect until the admiral and his CR10 flagship are no longer in the battle force?

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Tuesday, August 06, 2024 - 08:26 am: Edit

Question 314.11:

In the Cloudburst scenario the Klingons (together with the Orions and the Romulans) attack the Federation on turn 1. Only Eastern Fleet, Southern Reserve and Tholian Border Squadron are released per scenario rules. No mention of limited war status, so the Empire would be at full war.

I want to use military raids (314.0) but I'm unsure about the ships allowed in the raid pool.
Am I allowed to add ships from unreleased fleets to the raid pool?

(314.111) restricts the selection of available ships to released fleets and theatres but only under limited war statis. As mentioned above the Klingons are at full war. Wouldn't this cancel the restriction to released fleets only(314.111) and allow me to add Home fleet assets like their TUG for blockade running?

My gut feeling, logic and common sense say now, but my oppenent and I couldn't find a definite rule to actually prohibit this, so I'd like to asked the more experienced players for advice. Maybe we are overlooking something.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Soeren Klein

P.S.: I tried a key word search but results only referred to the similar but somewhat different situation of the Klingons during turn 1 of The Wind, but there they are still under limited war against the Kzinti. Here they are under full war status against the Feds.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, August 06, 2024 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Check Turn 2 for additional released fleets, plus any new construction ships are also available …

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 07, 2024 - 12:41 am: Edit

Unreleased fleets are just that. Raids are allowed at limited or full war, but unreleased is well unreleased.

So, no, you cannot move ships from unreleased fleets to the raid pool, ever.

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Wednesday, August 07, 2024 - 02:09 am: Edit

Thanks, Stewart and Steve.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Soeren Klein

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Thursday, August 08, 2024 - 04:41 pm: Edit

What happens to Free Fighter Factors when a capital falls? (442.62) says they're evacuated with the treasury, but do they persist in a partial grid? Or do they go to the main grid even if it's not connected? If they go to a partial grid, are they in a specific location, and can tugs transfer them between grids?

The previous answer in Q&A (from 2004) was: "The free fighters go with the treasury when you have a supply path. Rule (410.34) does not permit the Orions to smuggle any other than EPs, so I believe the fighters would be lost without a supply path."

This doesn't clarify what happens if there is a supply path but not to the new treasury.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Thursday, August 08, 2024 - 04:53 pm: Edit

I have a question regarding the evacuation of free fighter factors after the fall of a capital. AO rule (442.62) states that FFFs are evacuated with the treasury after the fall of the capital, using rule (511.35) Under that rule, (522.352) specifies that if there is not a supply path to the newly designated capital, the treasury can be evacuated to any base or planet that has a supply path to the original capital at the moment it falls.
In our current game, Hydrax has been captured and as per (511.31) the off-map has been designated the new capital. However, Lyran ships in 0117 and 0119 have cut-off the Old Colonies from the rest of Hydran space, and so per (522.352) the treasury has been evacuated to the untouched friendly planet in 0519. My question is, do the free fighter factors also get evacuated to the planet by (442.62)? Or more to the point, would the evacuated FFFs be available for use in conversions at the remaining starbases in their same grid?
Obviously with the shipyard destroyed no new FFFs are received until a new one is established. However, it would be nice to use up the unused factors if the rules allow.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Sunday, August 18, 2024 - 10:36 pm: Edit

There is potentially an error in 203.55, which has led to a point of contention between Karl and I. 203.55 says in part, "may move a number of units equal to the difference in Command Rating out of the hex". This seems incorrect: surely it's ship equivalents, not units? Otherwise a CVA could move out for a 1 CR difference.

Second, there's no reference here to the earlier counting of ship equivalents - arguably implying that if DN FF are in the same hex as 40F5, the DN can still leave. Indeed, 40F5 would only pin one frigate if a regular fleet came through (a DD could leave by itself, a CA could bring 4 other ships with it, potentially in separate stacks until the whole fleet is passed).

I think it's obvious that this is not the intended interpretation, but Karl pointed out that "common sense" does not necessarily apply, so we should ask anyway. It might be good to reword the rule as a modifier on 203.50 (assuming my interpretation is correct).

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Sunday, August 18, 2024 - 11:49 pm: Edit

Ah, to clarify my ramblings into a question: can LGE use 203.55 to move out of a hex with (Hydran, 5SEQ, CR 9) LGE TG-S HN (Lyran, 7SEQ, CR 8) STT VW DW SC HFF FF 6IFF?

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Wednesday, August 21, 2024 - 12:16 am: Edit

I have another question that deals with strategic movement.

204.22 states "that the moving unit can never enter a hex containing enemy units or which is adjacent to a hex containing enemy units (not merely ships) except as provided below.

does this mean that a single enemy unit could block a fleet from using an adjacent hex as part of their strategic movement route, or would normal pinning rules from rule 203.5 be in effect.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Wednesday, August 21, 2024 - 12:21 am: Edit

Hi Bill,
Only a single enemy unit is required to block a hex for a strategic movement path, the number of units does not matter.
However it does matter for the hex of the SMN; the number of friendly ships must exceed the number of enemy ships in all hexes adjacent to the node (using the pinning rules) or else no friendly units can enter that SMN.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Wednesday, August 21, 2024 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Thank you for the quick reply Karl.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Hello there. I have a quick question, FO 440.8 discusses some ships used in the Four Powers war. Namely the Lyran HDD and the HFF. Have counters ever been made for these ships? I ask because I have noted that some of the ships listed in 440.8 have had counters printed, such as the Lyran CLS. Any how just curious if those particular counters were available. Thank You.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 07:29 pm: Edit

The were printed in the last counter update for FO.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Monday, August 26, 2024 - 09:13 pm: Edit

Thank you

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Thursday, August 29, 2024 - 07:28 pm: Edit

I'd like to appeal again for a ruling/clarification on the above question regarding the pinning exception (203.55) as our game is on hold because it is unresolved.
The question is, for fast ships (and also carriers) which are single units that count for more than 1 SEQ, are they counted as one ship when unpinned due to the CR difference, or do they count as the number of ship equivalents. (203.55) states "If the moving player's rating is higher, he may move a number of units equal to the difference in the command ratings out of the hex." The reference to *units* suggests that ship equivalents are not part of the calculation of how many units can leave the hex. However, (203.553) refers to "ships and/or equivalents" being moved out of the hex, suggesting that equivalents *can* be counted, but do not have to. Is this correct? See above for the specific example in question.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, August 30, 2024 - 03:10 am: Edit

Karl:

Please cite your specific example so that we can review it. Thanks.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, August 30, 2024 - 07:27 am: Edit

Chuck

I was party to the Q&A discussuons so hopefully this will help.

Example 1

Hydran Paladin (with it's 6F) and 9 x CU's are pinned by a Lyran CC and 10 x FF's.

Can the Paladin exit the hex using it's 1 Command Rating Advantage?

Supporting Example

Lyran DN and 9 x FF's are pinned by a Kzinti CC and 10 x FF's.

The Lyran DN CAN leave the hex via the Command Rating Excess.

Q&A Discussions has examples of Fast Ships, but the above is perhaps clearer.

Example 2

Hydran LGE (with it's 6F) and 9 x CU's are pinned by a Klingon D7 and 11 x E4's.

Can the LGE exit the hex using it's 1 Command Rating Advantage?

Supporting Example

Lyran CC and 9 x FF's are pinned by a Kzinti CA and 10 x FF's.

The Lyran CC CAN leave the hex via the Command Rating Excess.


In other words - does Command Rating excess work on Ships or Ship Equivalents (noting that with the change to flexible carrier groups, it could result in a Fed SCS or other single ship with 3 or 4 equivalents being able to leave a hex with just a 1 Command Rating Difference - and so should true Carriers be excused from this rule, if it is ruled as Ships).

The relevancy is mulltiple "ship equivalent ships" (Carriers with 6+F, Fast Ships and some of the Hydran Hybrid Ships) are disavangtaged if it is based on Ship Eauivalents leaving a hex via the Command Rating difference, verus normal hulls.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Friday, August 30, 2024 - 10:59 am: Edit

To give the specific example of this game:
A Hydran fleet moving led by an LGE is moving through Lyran space when the fleet becomes pinned completely by a Lyran fleet led by an STT. The LGE would like to use the pinning exception (203.55) to continue moving out of the hex given the command rating difference (LGE:CR9, STT:CR8) however it is not clear whether it counts as one unit (because it is a single ship) or three units (because it counts for three SEQ.) Which is correct?

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, August 30, 2024 - 07:01 pm: Edit

Karl:

It appears that the pinning calculation under (203.55) is a separate calculation that uses the difference in command ratings and commanded units verses (203.50) which is uses ship equivalents of ships, fighters, PFs, F-Ships, and X-Ships.

So, under the pinning exception, since the commanding LGE rating is higher (by one point over the STT) and the LGE is a single 'unit' and it is the only eligible unit to leave the hex as the rule specifies that the command ship must be included in this calculation. The LGE's fighters are not counted under the commanded unit calculation for the pinning exception. So, in the case, the one 'unit' allowed to leave is the LGE with its fighters because they must remain with their host unit (and so long as there is one 'ship' is left behind - which there is).

FEDS RULING:

Unless overruled by ADB, only the commanding ship and the units under its command rating (including independent fighter squadrons or PF flotillas) are to be used in the pinning exception under (203.55). The status of the command ships as an F-ship or X-Ship is irrelevant as it is a single unit unit for command purposes. Any F-Ship and X-ships under this pinning exception are also counted as a single "units" for units able leave the hex under (203.55).

REF:

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Quote:

(203.55) PINNING EXCEPTION: After completing the basic procedure in (203.50), but before movement of the un-pinned ships resumes, compare the Command Ratings of the ship with the largest Command Rating from each side. If the Moving Player’s rating is higher, he may move a number of units equal to the difference in the Command Ratings out of the hex. (At least one ship must be left behind in the hex.) The moving force must include the command ship used in the calculation.

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By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Saturday, August 31, 2024 - 07:24 am: Edit

Thanks Chuck