Archive through October 10, 2024
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E QUESTIONS:
F&E Q&A Discussions:
Archive through October 10, 2024
If the calculation is [SEQ pinned]=[Enemy SEQ]-[CR advantage], then there's no issue with "fast ship can't move but a regular cruiser can". You (should, IMO) need to leave behind the same number of SEQ either way.
Sam
My holiday brain may be fried.... but this example hopefully shows the issue?
DNL and 9 x FF is pinned by a CA and 10 x FF.
So 11 v 11 on Pinned Eq and 9 v 8 on CR - but that DNL is two slots of ships - and so the whole fleet is pinned correct?
But a CC and 9 x FF is attempted to be pinned by a CA and only 9 x FF, but it could be 10 x FF for simplicty (so same blocking force) - but the CC can continue to move due to Command Rating.
In other words - any ship which is worth more than 1 Ship Equivalent is easier to pin than a normal ship?
Ah, I see the problem. I haven't made it easier to pin a fast ship, I just haven't given them a benefit. Under my understanding, CA 10FF pins DNL 9FF and CC 9FF, but CA 9FF pins neither. Of course, if the DNL 9FF fleet had other ships with it, they could have already moved past - and that's not true of the CC 9FF fleet.
Note that the example in 203.553 says that ship equivalents are what's in view.
Sam
Thats just it - if you use Ship Equivalents - it is easier to pin a Fast Ship - if it has the highest CR in the moving fleet.
Fleet A
DNL and 9 x FF's
Fleet B
CC and 9 x FF's
Fleet C
CA and 10 x FF's
Fleet C can fully pin Fleet A - but can't fully pin Fleet B - as the CC can leave under Command Rating Difference.
(Ignoring Lyran CA's etc!!)
So, it should be Ship Differences - not Ship Equivalents.
As noted in my original post though - Carriers and Multi Ship Equivalents do need to be factored into it.
i.e. Pal, LGE - the Fast Fed Carrier and all carriers with more than 6 fighters.
is it 'fair' for the Hydrans to be able to get a Paladin through a hex which was otherwise pinned by ship equivalents for example - when everyone else can only get a 'DN' through?
As the final point - if a LGE is able to be counted as a Ship Unit - you could end up with 10 Equivalents (with a CR 8 ship) only pinning 7 Equivalents (which had a CR9 ship).
I see where we're talking past each other. I don't think that the command ship should be allowed to leave in either of those circumstances, though possibly it should be altered so that the DNL can leave. The CA 10FF fleet can pin 11-1=10 SEQ, and fleet A and B have 11 and 10 SEQ, respectively.
I mean, the clarifying example in (203.553) says, in part, "The difference (six) allows the D7C and five more ships (and/or equivalents) [...]". It doesn't talk about fast ships, but it clearly indicates that a ship equivalent of fighters is considered a 'unit' for the purposes of (203.55).
There are essentially two "extreme" cases:
First, 4CC 21FF vs 30FF. If a command differential allows a ship with a higher command rating to leave regardless of the number of ship equivalents in the hex, each CC allows 5FF to leave with it (perhaps in different stacks), and the 30FF end up pinning just one FF.
Second, CVA CF 8FF vs CA 12FF. If a command differential allows a specific number of units to leave, CVA CF can leave, meaning that 13 SEQ only pins 8 SEQ despite the command rating differential being just 2.
I think both of these are issues (the first obviously a greater issue than the second) - so I'm looking for a resolution. I'd be happy with just a ruling on my specific circumstance (the example with the LGE), but I think this does need clarification.
Another facet to this question also has to do with interaction between pinning SEQs and the exception; in this particular case Sam has also added an additional ship to pin the fleet, with the idea that the extra SEQ of the pinning force would produce a "credit" to offset the number of ships that can be excused due to the pinning exception. Thus, if a fleet led by a CC is pinned by a stack of FFs, normally the CC could remove itself and 5 other ships due to the pinning exception. However Sam's contention is that if the pinning FFs brought along 6 more FFs to offset the pinning exception, the CC would not be able to move any ships out. I see the point he's trying to make here, however the reading of (203.50) and (203.55) does not suggest that overpinning grants you any additional benefit. The basic pinning calculation and the pinning exception appear to be mutually exclusive (i.e. the calculations of one do not interact with the calculations of the other.)
I have another question that deals with strategic movement.
204.22 states "that the moving unit can never enter a hex containing enemy units or which is adjacent to a hex containing enemy units (not merely ships) except as provided below.
does this mean that a single enemy unit could block a fleet from using an adjacent hex as part of their strategic movement route, or would normal pinning rules from rule 203.5 be in effect.
Sam
Surplus Ship equivalents have no effect on Command Ratings - both tests are done seperatly.
So 7 ships v 5 Ships (and CR 7 v CR 5) would allow 2 ships to leave via surplus and 2 ships to leave via CR leaving 3 v 5 Ships left.
5 Ships v 7 Ships (and CR 7 and CR 5) would mean 2 ships via CR difference can still leave - leaving 3 v 7 ships left.
Noting - with Reserve Fleet movement - both HAVE to be used if of the Reserve Moving Fleet needs to settle pin requirements when moving to it's target hex.
Thanks, Paul, for an answer.
But it's ship equivalents, not ships, even in the command exception, as indicated by the example in (203.553). You're right that this may cause trouble with fast ships, but the biggest problem (and most pertinent) is the LGE. Even making an exception for fast ships, the LGE can't leave for a 1 command rating difference, right?
How many times can this be used by a reserve fleet in one hex? Can 8CC FF in a reserve move through 9CA, just leaving the FF behind? It reads like it can only be used once by a given stack which leads to the conclusion that it's actually less effective for a reserve fleet than during operational movement.
(203.51) states that the pinning calculation is repeated whenever ships enter the hex. So presumably ships leaving the hex do not trigger a recalculation.
The LGE is relatively unique being a fast ship and carrier (the Fed DVL is also but is a true carrier), but it seems a similar problem would be encountered with CVAs. They too count for 3SEQ and almost always have a CR of 10, so they would necessarily have to be part of the force that leaves the hex under the pinning exception. But does it count as 1 ship or 3? If the answer is 3, then it seems that a pinning force would only need a CA to completely pin a fleet led by a CVA, since the CVA cannot leave it's fighters behind. Yet if it only counts as 1 ship, then the player moving the CVA effectively gets 3SEQ for the price of 1 moving out of the hex. Has anyone else encountered this? It seems like potentially a more common scenario.
(203.501) says that the pinning calculation is repeated whenever ships enter, but that doesn't obviously apply to the pinning exception. Suppose DN DD 4FF are in a hex with 10FF, and the DD reacts out. Is the DN then unable to leave until another ship enters the hex?
(203.51) says that the calculation (including (203.55)) is only done once per stack per hex, which probably resolves the question for reserve fleets and operational movement, but does not resolve it for reaction movement. Once per reaction opportunity probably works. It is another thing to keep track of, though - there might be a hex with unmoved ships where (203.55) is eligible to be used and another hex with unmoved ships where it is not (enemy ships react in, and in one of those hexes one or more ships has already used the command exception to leave).
Reading it again, it doesn't look like the DD in that example is even eligible to employ the exception because it doesn't have the greatest command rating in the hex. It's unclear whether it's possible to be used at all if the ship with the highest command rating in the hex has already moved (and the ship with the second highest command rating is part of a moving stack and has a higher command rating than any enemy ship in the hex).
The terms 'unit' and 'ship' are typically not interchangeable, but it looks at the enemy 'ship' with the highest command rating - so a starbase does not block the pinning exception.
(203.552) implies that ships could potentially react to enemy ships leaving the hex as long as they didn't react in. They can't, right?
To be clear, I'm not really asking all those questions right now (though I wouldn't mind answers) - I just think (203.5) needs to be cleaned up and those are all the edge cases I could think of.
Karl - I think there has been various rulings confirming it (Keyword search brought up 19 pages) but one about CL26 and from SVC stated : -
As noted in (601.14), the Federation receives a percentage of its income for these early turns. If the Federation enters the war on its own turn (after production) then the 50% of the budget pays for the PWCs and anything left over is available for other costs or carried over. Thereafter, the stated amount of the economy is available to buy the ships from the schedule (as adjusted by this article) and anything not spent is available for overbuilds, special costs, drone bombardment, etc.
On the first Federation turn of the war, any PWC built that turn is not sent where assigned but is released to be sent to the active front. Thereafter, any PWC assignments are ignored and the ships are released for duty at the front. For example, assume that the Hydrans enter the Federation on Turn #5. The PWC ships for that turn were scheduled for the 4th Fleet, but are instead released and sent wherever the Federation player wants them to go (within the rules; you don’t get to instantly deploy them on the Klingon capital).
So, if the Hydrans activiate the Feds in or after the Operational movement phase - Feds get : -
50% of it's Economy and pays for that turns PWC
Balance of the 50% is then available for any in turn costs (I think the only valid three costs would be to pay for Drone usuage, additional Strategic Movement and to pay for Field Repair on any Damaged Federation ships (unlikely, but some of the add on rules - Raids and Survey etc I think could get a Fed ship crippled - unless the Klingons had activated Limited war and you might have Fed 4th Fleet in Kzinti space etc).
Other expansions might add other ways to spend money - but once the Economy phase is over, the Feds will be limitedo on what they can spend the Balance of 50% on!
In effect, the Feds are likely to start the next turn with alot of Cash!
Thanks, Paul. That's what I thought might be the case; if the Feds have to pay out of the 50% for PWC there is very little left over. (What with the CVA in particular)
I thought it might be possible to do some zero-cost development (minor shipyard with ENG, colony with FEMA ship) but it looks like that has to be declared in the Economic step of the SOP also.
Too bad the Feds don't have drone bombardment ships yet.
In Q&A, Karl asked:
==========
Minor question here, but I noticed on the SIT it states that the Fed CLS is obsolete. The rule (542.16) the SIT references, however, is an entry about X-survey ships. If the design is obsolete, does that mean CLSs can't be sent off-map for survey duty?
==========
This refers to a rule that was deleted (made obsolete? 
) when SO was updated. Under the now-deleted rule, certain types of survey ships were classified as obsolete, meaning that no new ships of that class could be built or converted. You can safely ignore the SIT note.
The Fed CLS and Hydran SR are no longer obsolete. This is a change in SO 2022. You are free to build or convert as you see fit, subject to the production rules of Survey ships for those empires.
The SITs have not been updated to reflect the rule change.
Karl
On spending Federation Ep's following the entry of them into the game after a succesful expedition - there are other areas which can allow them to spend Ep's.
If your playing with flexible Tugs - Feds could send some Ep's to the Kzinti in the Strategic Movement Phase.
(As you metnioned, if it's a CVA construction turn, surplus Ep's might be limited anyway - and so 10 or 20 Ep's might well take up the balance of the available funds!!)
I was also thinking Colonial Development - but cost has to be paid in the Op Movement part of the turn (and Tug/LTT needs to arrive by Op Movement - so would need to start there in effect) - so thats out.
Shipyards are also out (as they are paid in the Production part of the turn) - but as other expansions are added, it may be other legal routes to spend the money will occur.
Paul, thanks for that reminder. Looks like (509.1H) indicates that the EP transfer mission can be designated at the start of the Strategic movement step, so that's probably within the realm of possibility. Getting EPs to the Kzinti would dramatically help them get through their backlog of cripples (they've had enough money each turn for their full build schedule but only have enough left over to repair 2-3 ships.)
There was a lot of discussion back in June/July of 2013 about the interaction of 307.41 (directed damage in pursuit battles) and carrier groups. To make sure I understand the resolution, I would like to pose some examples and see if I am handling them correctly.
A) CV, cle, eff
The eff can be targeted or both the cle and eff can be targeted
B) CV, CLE, eff and CVE, eff
Either or both eff's can be targeted
C) CV, cle, eff and CV, CLE, eff
Either or both eff's can be targeted; if the first group's eff is targeted, the first group's cle can also be targeted
D) CV, cle, EFF
The EFF can be targeted, but the cle cannot. The cle cannot be targeted by itself because it is protected by the uncrippled outer escort; it cannot be targeted with the EFF because 307.41 only allows multiple ships to be targeted if they are all crippled.
Do I have these correct? I am ignoring the fact that in each case an entire group could be targeted if points are sufficient.
John
A) - Nope - carrier group rules still apply.
eff or the Group can be targetted.
B) - Correct, Yes
C) - Nope, 'the cle's' (either) can only die if the entire group is targetted.
D) - Correct
Easyiest way to 'check' is Specific Rule (in this Case Targetting of Ships in a Group) trumps the General Rule (can target multple crippled ships in persuit).
This was discussed back in Nov. 2020 but not answered.
During a pursuit battle, a mauler is used against crippled retreating ships. The primary target is protected by the formation bonus, which means that the mauler is at half strength. However, if there are "surplus" mauler points that can be directed at other ships, how are they handled?
Example: A retreating force has a crippled Fed CA, a crippled NCL and three FFs, and the CA is in the formation bonus. Four mauler points (of five since the D6M is half strength) are used against the CA. When the target becomes the NCL, does the mauler have only a single point remaining or does it have two since the second target is not protected, allowing the mauler to return to its normal attack? In other words, are 11 points or 9 points needed to kill the CA and NCL?
The best way of thinking about it, in my opinion, is that a mauler simply reduces the damage required by its strength - but not to below the target's defense factor. This is to the best of my knowledge always equivalent - though in edge cases it might not be.
With this, the damage required is 4*3+4*2=20, so the mauler reduces it to 10.
This is the same as the mauler having 2 points remaining, so the NCL requires 4*2-2=6 damage (and CA NCL require 10 total).
I saw your comment back in 2020, and while it makes sense, I wasn't sure if that was the final answer.
I agree with Sam
Max 5 points can be used - and what is left unused is doubled back up
So a NCL takes 4.
Mauler has 2 points of 1:1 power left.
Did a keyword search and it doesn't seem to have been formally answered.
Rule 503.611 - Lyrans may not enter 805 or 905 on Turn 1.
Question is - should the Lyrans also be exlcuded from entering the Klingon/Kzinti Neutral Zone hexes?
It's possible for the Lyrans to retreat into those hexes (and some comments have said 'the Kzinti should try to stop them doing that', byt that is not alwayys possible and I doubt they can stop then going from 1004 to 1005) - and so as under normal rules, if the Lyrans retreat there should they be interned and they move 1 more hex into Klingon space (and are released on turn 2).
That would preserve the 'veneer' that the Klingons are 'at peace'.
Alternatively, exlcuding those hexes would seem to be a better option - the Lyrans know they can't enter there without revealing the Coalition plan too early?
I am surprised no one ha s tried it (so it may an unlikely event), but it would allow the Lyrans to get ships within 6 hexes of 1401 - and the Kzinti can't attack them back on Alliance turn 1.
On Coalition turn 2 - they are all in supply - as supply can then cross Klingon space.
What do people think?
Cheers
What's to try, other than maybe challenging the concept of trying to capture the Kzinti-Klingon NZ?
Two things about this.
1. The border itself is a border between a (well armed) future belligerent Klingon and the Kzinti.
2. One may only capture NZ by Operational movement.
This does call into the light if a Lyran tried to run a Ship or two into 1106 would the fighters on 1205 be able to react into the NZ as the Dukes is released once the Lyrans declare war (just not with the Klingons)...I digress.
As for ending up in 1105 or 1106 I would say its likely been done but NOT as the objective of just trying to get into those NZ hexes. Sure it is possible but has to be rather low on the goals of T1 list.
Considering the Lyran is unable to travel thru Klingon Space or hexes 805/905 they would have to hook around the WYN cluster meaning they must attack/pin the bases at 0803 and 1004 (or the planet in 1105, one could even reach 1205 at great risk of losing a Retrograde path).
The Lyrans will put ships in range of the Kzinti capital from anywhere inside Kzinti space starting with hexes 0801-0803 East, so the objective of just trying to get into the NZ at 1005/1106 is possible but to what end?
Most of the Kzinti players I know deploy the majority of their ships on the Count SB with maybe some single ships forward deployed from that fleet to the border with RESV set.. Also they typically position the Duke Fleet off of the Dukes SB in hexes 1003 (or 1004) with RESV set.
This makes for all sorts of fun depending on the aggressiveness of either player as the Lyrans move in on their attack. As well as where the Kzinti chooses to send their RESV.
The Lyrans need to be careful as I mentioned above...if they cannot ensure taking down at least one Kzinti BTS (at 0703 or 0803) they will have a challenge in terms of Retrogrades back into their space to defend for T1A. (They cannot enter Klingon Space on retrograde either.)
The Lyrans have no concerns to be cut off from supply hitting those southern Kzinti bases but they do open some risk of counter-attack to the Red Claw area on T1A by sending forces there T1C and leaving them. Most Lyran players want to keep the Kzinti in front of them in reaction range where they can see them. Of course as always YMMV.