Soeren, you can do that here.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, December 05, 2024 - 03:23 pm: Edit

You might as well get me a list of every Klingon counter without a corresponding KR counter.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, December 06, 2024 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Just to bring the K4V and K5V discussion full circle, the staff and SVC agreed to include these two missing KR hulls on VULKAN. See post in that thread on June 2. (It includes factors)

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, December 06, 2024 - 02:32 pm: Edit

Thx! VULKAN is at:

Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT: F&E Countersheet projects: F&E FIGHTER OPS - VULKAN 2024 (2 Sheets)

--Mike

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, December 06, 2024 - 07:52 pm: Edit

Both (K5V/K4V) on Vulkan at D7/D8 …

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:01 am: Edit

SVC,
thanks for setting up this thread.
I am happy to find people seing merit in this proposal.

The first part is easy done: posting a list of missing units that I deem useful for a longer game with only KR-series ships.

Also, thanks for the hint with the K4V and K5V. They where not there, back then when I wrote my scenario proposal.
With those two being added, I may have to revise my proposal and the changes I made to compensate for their absence in 2022.

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:14 am: Edit

Here comes the list:

K4 Variants:
K4, K4D and K4F already there

K4-SC	K4S	u	missing	E4S	2-4u/1-2
K4-CVE	K4V	3-4(3)/1-2(1.5)	FO VULCAN	E4V	3-4(3)/1-2(1.5)
K4-TT	K4H		missing	E4T	1-4U/0-2
K4-X	K4X		missing	E4X	6/3
K4-Troup	K4G	GG	missing	E4G	2-4G/1-2

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:15 am: Edit

K5 Destroyer variants:
K5, K5L, K5S,K5D,K5X and KSX already there.

K5-TT	K4H		missing	F5T	2-5U/1-3
K5-FCR	K4F	[6]	missing	F5R	2-5[6]escort/1-3
K5-PFT	K5Y	(4H)	???
K5V		4-5(4)/2-3(2)	FO VULCAN	FV	4-5(4)/2-3(2)

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:16 am: Edit

K5W war destroyer variants

K5W, KEW, KVW, KXW, KGW already there.

K5W-SC	KSW	u	missing
K5W-PFT	KYW	pu	missing	FWY	3-6πu/1-3π
K5W-SCX	KXWS	u	missing	FWSX	6-9u/3-5u

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:18 am: Edit

KF6 Heavy Frigate variants:

KF6		7/4	published	F6	7S/3
KF6-Escort	K6D		missing	F6E	5-7escort/2-4escort
KF6-SC	K6S	u	missing	F6S	4-7u/2-4

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:20 am: Edit

KDR Light Cruiser variants:

KDR, KDV, KDA and KDS already there.

KDR-LTT	KDH		missing	D5H	6-7/3-4
KDR-CVH		(8H)	missing	D5VH	6-7(8H)/3-4(4H)
KDR-CVP		(9)	missing	D5U	3-7(9)/1-4(4▲)
KDR-CSV		u(8H)	missing	D5B	3-7u(8H)/1-4(4H)
KDR-PFT	KDP	(P)	missing	D5P	5-7Pu/2-4P
KDR-X	KDX	u	missing	D5X	10/5
KDR-SCX	KDS	u	missing	D5SX	7-10u/3-5u
KDR-Troup	KDG	GG	missing	D5G	2-7G/1-4G
KDR-Mauler	KDM	+	missing	MD5	7✛/4
KDR-Fast	FKD	F	missing	FD5	6-7F/3-4

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:26 am: Edit

KWR New Heavy Cruiser

KWR, KWS and KWV already there.

KWR-LTT	KWH		missing
KWR-Escort	KWA		missing	ADW	7-8escort/3-4escort
KWR-CVH	KWVH	(8H)	missing	D5VH
KWR-CVP		(9)	missing
KWR-DCS		u(6P)	missing	DWU	4-8P(6)u/2-4P(3)
KWR-PFT	KWP	u(P)	missing	DWP	6-8Pu/3-4P
KWR-CSV		u(8H)	missing	DWB	3-8u(8H)/1-4(4H)
KWR-Troup	KWG	GG	missing	DWG	3-8GT/1-4G
KWR-Mauler	KWM	+	missing	MDW	9+/4
KWR-X	KWX		missing	D5WX	12/6
KWR-Fast	FKW	F	missing	FDW	7-8F/3-4

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:28 am: Edit

K7 Battlecruiser variants:

KRC, K7R, K7V and K7X already there.

KR-CCH	KRW		missing	D7W	10-9/5
KR-Fast	FKR	F	missing	FD7	7-8F/4
K7VH		(8H)	missing	D7VH
K7R-ACS	KRU	u(8H6)	missing	D7U	4-9u(8H6)/2-5(4H3)
K7R-DCS	UKR	P(6)u	missing	UD7	5-9P(6)u/3-5P(3)

K7R-ACS designation KRU already in the game. It is the CVD version of the KR heavy cruiser. Maybe K7U and UK7 for the K7R-DCS like the klingon originals?

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:28 am: Edit

KCR Heavy Battlecruiser variants:

KCR		11/6	published	C7	10/5
KC7V	KCV	(6)	missing	C7V	10(6)/5(3)
KC7S	KCS	(6P)	missing	C7S	10(3P)/5(1,5P)

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:29 am: Edit

KC9 Dreadnought variants:

KC9 and KC10 already there.

KC9V		(12)	missing	C8V	10-12(12)/5-6(6)
KC9S		(6P)	missing	C8S	10-12(6P)/5-6(3P)
KC9P		(P)	missing
KC9-Mauler	KC9M	+	missing
KC10V		(8H6)	missing	C10V	11-14(8H6)/6-7(4H3)

KC9P would be their version of the ROC.

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:31 am: Edit

K10 Battleship variants:

K10, K10V, K10S already there.

K10P		(P)	missing
K10-Mauler	K10M	+	missing

No existing klingon originals.

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:48 am: Edit

Please note that:
- proposed factors in the third colum list only the mission specific factors (fighter, mauler, fast, i.e.). No combat or defense factors yet.

- klingon originals listed for reference next to the missing KR-series warship variants. If none is listed, then there isn't one.

- KC5 fast dreadnought, KE5, KE6, KE7, KRT Tug and KR heavy cruisers are not list because they are already in the game.

- HDWs would use existing romulan counters as they have the same factors like klingon ones.

- the romulan star empire is a big mauler user (three builts allowed per turn), therefore the proposed big maulers.

- within the Hawk-series they tried to max out the number of fighters on their cruiser hulls. Therefore I proposed CVP (patrol carrier) varianst of the KWR and KDR. I imagined they would find a way to make room for 3 more fighter factors, but no CVD version of the KWR because of the top mounted engine.

- K5Y is just a crazy idea. Romulans are late to the PF game in Y182 and might try this out to compensate and max out their fighters.

- B8, B9, penal units and stasis variants are ignored as they are klingon specialties.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone.

Thoughts? Corrections? Grave errors?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Soeren Klein

By Warren Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 09:28 am: Edit

KB9 Fast Battleship

KB9	?F(4)/ ?(2)	missing	B9	16F (40)/8(2)
KB9-	?F/?	missing	B9-	16F8

Soeren, the Romulan version of the B9 would be an acceptable unit as the B9 is the Klingon Fast Battleship and the Romulans would not have one otherwise.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:08 pm: Edit

You skipped Minesweepers.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 12:39 pm: Edit

There are a few more hull types and design variants from SFB Module X1, Module X1R, and elsewhere that might be of relevance here.

For example, I noted in the other thread that the Klingons have a D5PX: this would be a necessary substitute for the historical SPEX during the latter portion of the Andromedan War.

Also, there would likely be a Romulan equivalent of the Klingon DX, since neither the King Eagle-X nor the NovaHawk-X would exist in this setup. Not least in order to make sure that Rolandus has a suitable flagship for use during the Romulan Civil War and the ISC intervention at Tibernia IV.

In the longer term, the historical Klingons and Romulans are due to get HWXs (advanced technology heavy war destroyers) in F&E at some point. Although, if your suggestion to use Romulan HDW counters to cover the use of would-be Kestrel HDWs, perhaps the same would apply here also.

And another re-iteration from the other thread: while the actual fast patrol ships used here would likely be K1 gunboats, there would be no need to treat them differently to Centurions or StarHawks in F&E terms.

-----

To go further back in the timeline a little bit: I would also suggest considering adding SIT entries for certain Middle Years designs - to include the proposed KC6R.

Beyond their (more limited) use in a "regular Smarba" timeline, having such Middle Years designs might make it easier to set up an "early Smarba" scenario, akin to the "early warp" timelines provided in SFB Module R4J.

Indeed, one could even throw in a Kestrel conversion of the ill-fated Klingon LD5 - which, despite the "-L" designation, was in fact a Middle Years design. I could certainly picture an "early Smarba" Klingon Empire deciding to off-load these hulls to the Romulans, with the latter only learning of their maintenance problems after the sale had been made...

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 03:12 pm: Edit

F&E has no minesweepers.

By Soeren Klein (Ogdrklein) on Saturday, December 07, 2024 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Warren,

indeed, i hav to agree. Haven't thought about that.

Gary,
agreed on the KD5PX you suggest.
And your idea with getting rid of those failed one-off designs and the romulan empire taking them for study is intriguing.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Soeren Klein