Lawrence

Klingon specific rule was my initial thought too - but 540.14 also refers to APT, PTR, FXP or even a FHL...

and the FXP is a unique Fed ship - so 'in theory' - it infers adding a Dip Team to any ship makes it a Dipomatic Ship.

It may well be 540.14 needs to refer to ships PRE-WAR - or returnig Dip Teams to home space after War starts (i.e. Polticially, Dip Teams and their ships are permitted to safely return home - and 540.144 in effect is the penalty for the owner if they do this).

Logically, 540.14 would seem to infer to "Diplomatically Protected" - but there is no explicit link?

(But that would invaldidate any Expedition Attempt - as there is no player elected disabling rule - i.e. 'this ship and Dip Team elects NOT to use Diplimatic Protected Rules')

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, January 09, 2025 - 03:19 am: Edit

I think you have to look at the Diplomatic Missions section. A diplomat can't invoke the Ceasefire (540.26) mission it wouldn't invalidate the Hydran Expedition.

Note that mission (540.27) Cooperation talks about having a Diplomat in a battle force and using it to lower the empire flagship numbers.

So you can have warship with a diplomat on it that is not protected by (540.14).

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, January 10, 2025 - 01:02 am: Edit

I guess I am not sure what your are asking though Paul. 540.14-540.146 does not prevent a ship carrying a diplomatic team from entering a hex with enemy ships.

There are really only a couple missions that the DIP team really would want to be in a battle hex/hex with enemy units. Ceasefire and Cooperation and there is no penalty for being in this combat (outside of the point that if the ceasefire roll fails the team must be included in the next battle force), and only one benefit (Cooperation in a fleet of mixed allies).

There are other situations where the enemy could come in creating a battle hex.

None of these situations allow any "protection" or a free departure for the diplomatic team or ship carrying the team.

This only happens in a mission of trade or when in negotiation withe NZ planet and the talks go poorly. The Section you refer to (last paragraph of 540.29) discusses that a Hydran DIP may be sent to the Federation on a mission of trade on Turn 1 or 2, and would indeed be covered by its diplomatic status to be allowed to move (on any released ship legal to carry it) through Klingon territory. The rule is also explicit that this mission does not trigger the expedition in any way. The expedition may only be a success if the Hydran diplomat leaves the Hydran territory as part of the expeditionary fleet and reaches the Federation with ship from that fleet and as Ryan points out without invoking the ceasefire mission rule along the way. (IIRC there is even a Tacnote about maximizing the Hydran DIP, but making darn sure you get it back to hydran space before you attack the Coalition as it would then be cut off, once at war Klingons would refuse entry back through)

Outside of this a DIP and its carrying ship may be intercepted, interned, captured or killed in a multitude of ways, including using a PT in an espionage mission to kill it.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 10, 2025 - 07:53 am: Edit

Lawrence

I don't know the full story (I am not in the game) - but long story short a Hydran player used 540.145 to allow a normally out of Supply Hydran Ship (with the Dip Team) to retrograde to the Kzinti Barony - which then allowed the Hydran Ship to safely reach Federation space and activate the Federation.

(So nothing to do with missions or entering hexes with enemy ships etc).

So the simple question is - if a Hydran ship with a Dip Team uses 540.145 to count as in supply - does that breach the specific "Hydran Expedition" Rules in 540.29?

The other question is - can Warships with a Dip Team on, in general use the 'Diplomatic Ship' rules (not as important, but woth asking).

When i read the rules - Diplomatic Ships was the rule used to get Dip Teams around the Map, prior to War in effect.

(On a practical basis, I think the answer is 'yes' - as it would make the Expedition much more easier to complete - but thats a comment rather than a rules issue - as a silly add on comment - what would happen if the Kzinti sent a ship with a Dip Team on it to Hydran Space on turn 1 - which could attempt Ceasefires - and the two ships with some other Hydrans ship to breach the inital border forces and try to wiggle though Klingon space, counting fully in supply etc!)

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, January 11, 2025 - 01:28 am: Edit

This will need a ruling but my take is the intent of that ship is what will determine the result. If the ship was meant as part of the expedition then the DIP would have to be on a ship from the expeditionary fleet and travel with the forces from that fleet. As such it would not be able to claim diplomatic protections (benefits of 540.144-504.145; using the diplomatic channels to remain in supply) as that claim would nullify the intended trigger for a successful expedition. They are traveling through enemy territory after all (not friendly or neutral) and have likely declared they would not be interned (the diplomatic supply channels are not available in enemy territory).

I myself have been part of a very exciting northern route expedition attempt (at Origins) and the ship almost made it through using a similar tactic. It could not claim to using the diplomatic channels to remain in supply and suffered the supply fate of the other Hydran ships joining with their Kzinti Allies in combat and then retreating with them (and retrgrading back toward Kzinti space) only to be thwarted by a successful espionage mission (aka two lucky rolls).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, January 11, 2025 - 05:08 am: Edit

Lawrence.

Thats my gut feeling too!

P.S. By by the sounds of things - you also have felt the unlucky roll effect of a succesful Assination attempt on the Dip Team.

I personally don't think that rule should stop the Expedition - a 'Murdered Diplomat' could inflame the Federation just as much as a talkative Dip Team could - perhaps with a 1 turn delay so there is the reason to try and still kill the Dip Team?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Sunday, January 12, 2025 - 11:38 pm: Edit

A situation came up in our game this evening, and we wanted to verify that we handled it correctly.

A battle was occurring at the Count's starbase (0902). The Coalition held 1001 (long enough for it to be an SMN), 1202 (it too was a Coalition SMN), 1203, 1204 and 1105. All the border battle stations had already been destroyed. In other words, the starbase was cut off from all supply points.

The Kzintis declared retreat and left the crippled starbase, and then the Coalition finished it off. After combat was resolved, we moved to the retreats. The Kzintis had more ships than were in 1001 so retreat priority 2 did not apply. Since they were cut off from supply, the Kzintis were free to ignore priority 3.

Wanting to get to the offmap area as quickly as possible, the Kzintis decided to try a fighting retreat and retreated into 1001. To create a devastating fighting retreat battle, the Lyrans then declared that they too would retreat. Between the ships already in 1001 and the retreating ships, the Lyrans had enough ships that priority 2 did not apply. Since 1001 was a Lyran SMN, it was the closest Lyran supply point, and therefore priority 3-D required them to retreat to 1001. This mean that they could be added to the fighting retreat.

Did we handle this correctly under the retreat rules?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 12:18 am: Edit

Nope, once the Lyrans stated they were retreating, 1001 doesn't count as a Lyran SMN so that would put 1002 as the nearest supply point... (no retreating to what you're retreating from)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 02:48 am: Edit

Question is - 'why' was it done as a Fighting Retreat?

The closest supply points appear to be Barony, 1401 and 1304.

1001 looks like it was in normal supply, with Kzinti forces retreating there (assuming 1101 was empty) and so is range 2 from supply - and so 1001 is the only valid hex to retreat to - if Kzinti forces outnumber what is in 1001.

The other Lyran forces, after 902 can retreat there - and with them outnumbering the Kzinti - can also normally retreat to 1001.

1001 is then a normal battle hex - if the Kzitni retreat again - 1101 would be the retreat hex they end in (1 away from Barony).

Remember - Fighting Retreat just allows you to retreat into a hex which has enemy forces in it, if there is an equal priority hex after the supply check, which doesn't have enemy forces in.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 07:47 am: Edit

As described, the battle at 1001 doesn't appear to be a fighting retreat. In fact, it is probably the mandatory retreat hex. 1001 puts the retreating ships in supply at a 2-hex range, while any other retreat hex leaves them out of supply. Keep in mind that, for the purposes of satisfying retreat priorities, supply is evaluated as the situation would be if the retreat went into a particular hex.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 10:19 am: Edit

We treated it as a fighting retreat because we evaluated the supply situation as it existed BEFORE the retreat (i.e., while the ships were still in 0902), and not AFTER the retreat (what it would be if the ships were in 1001).

If supply for retreat is evaluated as if the retreat had already occurred, then yes, we did it incorrectly. After the ships had retreated into 1001, they would open up 1101.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 10:51 am: Edit

John

I an only assume you didn't ignore the hex they are retreating from - as otherwise every hex adjacent to the hex they are retreating from would be range 1, which would make retreats silly!

I would suggest you redo the Lyran option to retreat from 902 (as they might want to stay there - but probably not) - and re-do a normal fight in 1001?

I assume the Kzinti lost alot from the Fighting Retreat Round and Persuit Round?

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 11:13 am: Edit

Hi Paul,

I'm not sure I understand your first comment. Based on the comments above, my new interpretation of how to evaluate the supply situation is to hypothetically move the ships into the potential retreat hexes and then evaluate the supply situation as if they were in each of those hexes.

Yes, I would have wanted to retreat the Lyrans regardless to get a bigger shot at the Kzintis before they escaped.

Fortunately, I have a log file of the turn, which has allowed me to recreate the battle compot, the die rolls, and then apply adjusted damage numbers. I'm going to need to have the Lyrans cripple an additional five points, and the Kzintis will be able to uncripple 14 points.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 01:44 pm: Edit

John

Thats correct (IMHO) in how each retreat hex is calculated

If you have the data and know what both side would do for BIR - you can correct things easily.

I assumed from your question - the Coalition did alot of damage to an already battered fleet - and then killed more ships in the persuit!!

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Actually, I rolled a 6 and pursuit failed; otherwise, it would have been even bloodier!

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, January 13, 2025 - 07:44 pm: Edit

I put together this worksheet (laminated it for FTF) to run throughs of retreats especially if there are some tricky situations...it seems to help.

RETREAT PRIORITY CHECKLIST
List 6 possible Retreat Hexes:		-	-	-	-	-	-
Hexes Eliminated (yes/no):		-	-	-	-	-	-
STEP ELIMINATED:		-	-	-	-	-	-

1	(302.731) PRIORITY 1: Internment P. Neut / Fut.Belligerents			Check the above boxes to eliminate hexes that would require internment in Neutral Territory (player voluntary option under 302.731)
2	(302.732) PRIORITY 2: Out-numbered Forces			Check the above boxes to eliminate hexes where total force (retreating plus friendly forces) would be out numbered (under 302.732)
3A	(302.733) PRIORITY 3: Supply 3A: Out of Supply			IF all remaining hexes are out of supply ignore this Priority step (do not check any boxes, go to Priority 4)
3B	(302.733) PRIORITY 3: Supply 3B: Supply Line			Check the above boxes to eliminate any hexes that are out of supply (under 302.733 - 3B)
3C	(302.733) PRIORITY 3: Supply 3C: Partial Grids			Check the above boxes to eliminate all hexes that are Partial Grids (under 302.733 - 3C)
3D	(302.733) PRIORITY 3: Supply 3D: Shortest Path			Check the above boxes to eliminate hexes leaving only the hex with the shortest path (under 302.733 - 3D)
3E	(302.733) PRIORITY 3: Supply 3E: Previous Hex			Check the above boxes to eliminate any hex abandoned during a previous combat round in the same chain of events (under 302.733 - 3E)
3F	(302.733) PRIORITY 3: Supply 3F: Varied Length Supply			Check the above boxes to eliminate any hexes that are out of supply for some would be out of supply for all (under 302.733 - 3F)
4	(302.734) PRIORITY 4: Enemy Presence			Check the above boxes to eliminate any hexes that contain enemy units (under 302.734)
-	(302.77) Fighting Retreat Option (Skip Priority 4)			Player option to ignore (302.734) and retreat into any hex available at the end of Priority 3. Not used if Options remain in Priority 4.

"(302.73) RETREAT PRIORITY:
All retreating ships must go to the same hex (including those which withdrew before combat in Step 1 and those which retreated afterward in Step 7). See (302.134) if some ships withdrew before combat. In selecting a hex to retreat to, the player must obey the following requirements. The requirements are stated in order of priority; in the case of a conflict, each prioriy has primacy over the priorities below it. In effect, each priority further restricts the number of available hexes to select a retreat option. Available hexes for a retreat are judged at the time the retreat is conducted.
The retreat priorities are in order from one (highest, most important) to four (lowest, least important). The units can retreat into one of the six surrounding hexes subject to the retreat priorities given; use each priority to eliminate some hexes; after all four priorities, select one of the remaining hexes. If a given priority eliminates all remaining hexes, ignore it but continue to analyze the remaining priorities."
(302.731) PRIORITY 1: The player can, regardless of any priorities below, select a hex in neutral territory. However, other restrictions will then apply; see (503.0). No player can be forced to enter neutral territory (or the zone of an inactive enemy fleet). This is always a voluntary action. The neutral zone between two belligerants does not qualify as “neutral territory”; once war begins between the two, those hexes are simply “uncaptured territory”. This rule only applies when the ship becomes interned. If the retreating ship enters a neutral zone hex next to a permanent neutral power or a future belligerent, the retreating ship can move a second hex and accept internment. A Kzinti ship (in a historical game) seeking internment in the Klingon Empire would be considered captured by the Klingons on the turn that the Klingons declared war on the Kzintis.
"(302.732) PRIORITY 2: The player cannot select a hex containing a number of enemy units greater than the number of ships in his retreating force (plus friendly units already in that hex) unless no other hex is available. A planet with one or more planetary defense units counts as a single unit; any fighters or PFs of the PDU are formed into ship equivalents as per (302.35) in addition to the PDU. A planet with only a Residual Defense Factor (508.16) is not a unit for this purpose. This step counts the actual number of units. Cripples count at the full value.
"
"(302.733) PRIORITY 3: The supply situation must be evaluated. The hex which the units are retreating from cannot be considered a supply source for purposes of this Priority.
SUB-PRIORITY-3A: If none of the potential retreat hexes would be in supply, Priority 3 is ignored. It does not matter if one potential retreat hex is closer to a supply point than a different hex if both are out of supply.
SUB-PRIORITY-3B: The player may not select a hex in which his force would be out of supply if there is a hex (not previously eliminated) in which his force would be in supply.
SUB-PRIORITY-3C: The player may voluntarily eliminate all (not some) potential retreat hexes which are supplied only from Partial Supply Grids IF there is a potential retreat hex supplied by the Main Supply Grid. He is not required to do so. If none of the potential retreat hexes are supplied by the Main Supply Grid, this Sub-Priority is ignored; the player cannot eliminate hexes supplied by a Partial Supply Grid unless this leaves hexes supplied by the Main Supply Grid.
SUB-PRIORITY-3D: Of the remaining available retreat hexes in which his force would be in supply, the player must select the one with the shortest supply path to a supply point.
SPECIAL-PRIORITY-3E: In the case of multiple or chain retreats, any hex abandoned during a previous combat round in the same chain of events cannot be considered a supply point for subsequent retreats. For example, a Hydran force on 0617 which retreats to 0718 cannot thereafter retreat back into 0617 as part of the same “battle”.
SPECIAL-PRIORITY-3F: In the expansions, there are units with various lengths of supply paths (e.g., X-ships have a seven hex path). Since the whole force must retreat together, a hex that is out of supply for some units is out of supply for all units."
(302.734) PRIORITY 4: The player cannot select a hex containing enemy units unless there is no available hex (note those eliminated above) which does not contain enemy units. (See 302.77)
"(302.77) FIGHTING RETREAT
(302.771): If the retreating player wants to conduct a fighting retreat, then he has the option to ignore (302.734) and retreat into any hex available at the end of Priority 3. However, the retreating force (and whatever friendly units may already be in that hex) must fight one (and only one) battle round with whatever forces are in that hex and then conduct a further retreat. (Units already in the hex might thereby be forced to retreat when they had not really wanted to.)
If Priority 4 (302.734) would not eliminate any of the hexes remaining at the end of Priority 3, then the rules for “fighting retreat” are not used and a regular retreat is conducted."

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, January 15, 2025 - 09:16 am: Edit

What a great thing to include in the updated base rulebook PDF? Or as a laminated sheet in the boxed version of the game? Retreats and supply are complicated and I think anything to make them easier helps the game.

--Mike

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, January 17, 2025 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Yep I set it up to be printed/laminated that way (for use with dry erase or grease pencils.

I also have it in excel/google sheets so one could use the drop downs.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, January 17, 2025 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Lar, email me a ready-to-print version and I will have Simone put it in the war book page.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, January 20, 2025 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Sorry for the delay, I have been busy here taking care of mom, I sent it earlier today (right after the Inauguration ceremony concluded.)

I Cc'd Chuck and Ryan as well for some extra eyes, just in case I have a typo or something more egregious.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, February 02, 2025 - 03:13 pm: Edit

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Sunday, February 02, 2025 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Hello there, I have a question concerning the Kzinti Marquis fleet. Rule 601.12 state that the Marquis fleet my move freely after Klingons enter Kzinti territory, but most leave at least 6 ships
including a CC in the two Federation border provinces. What I can't find is whether or not any of the active fleets can use any of the bases in those two border provinces. In other words, could he launch an attack from the star base in hex 1704 with the Marquis fleet minus the 6 ships into klingon territory like the star base in hex 1509 and then retrograde back to the Kzinti star base in hex 1704. Basically using the star base in the border provinces as a safe haven that the Klingons can't touch until turn 7 without bringing in the Feds?

Bill - yes, the rest of Marquis Fleet is released and can operate anywhere the Kzinti can - and using 1704 to aggresively attack the Klingons and run back to 1704 to repair is a normal Kzinti tactic.

Other Kzinti forces can equally operate in the 1704 area.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Sunday, February 02, 2025 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Thanks Paul. I appreciate the quick response.

By Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Monday, February 03, 2025 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Hello there. I've been reading up on the Hydran expeditionary supply tug. 509.5 says that the fighter conveyor pallet can be used as a supply source when the tug is out of supply and can supply up to twenty ship-turns of supply with any ship stacked with the tug. Am I correct in assuming that this tug would not be considered a base if in combat the way a tug would be if using rule 509.1-D?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, February 04, 2025 - 02:38 am: Edit

y Bill Powell (Bleedingbill) on Monday, February 03, 2025 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Hello there. I've been reading up on the Hydran expeditionary supply tug. 509.5 says that the fighter conveyor pallet can be used as a supply source when the tug is out of supply and can supply up to twenty ship-turns of supply with any ship stacked with the tug. Am I correct in assuming that this tug would not be considered a base if in combat the way a tug would be if using rule 509.1-D?
B

Bill - Correct

The Hydran Expedition Supply Tug (I'll term it HEST, to avoid the nomral Supply Point Rule for Tugs) is treated as a normal Tug for all purporses when concerning bases (both friendly enemy - so it can attack into a hex iwth an enmy base in for example).

Even if some of the 20 turns of ship supplies has been used that turn, it doesn't turn the HEST into a base.

Hence it is impossible to kill (outside E&S Missions and Raids)- unless the Hydran player puts the ship into a battle force (which they might have to, if the Hydran force is reduced enough!).

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, February 16, 2025 - 07:04 pm: Edit

One question that needs a little review was asked in 2012 and not verified.

5 SAFs attacked in open space on their way to the z cap. Rules…
Say they are bases like a convoy
Say bases can be excluded
Bases can be in different locations (can SAF be designated this way?)
Say they can be escorted
Say they can be in the form box

So if they are escorted. Do they have to be on the line? Do their escorts? What if they are excluded?