| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:10 am: Edit |
A project! You guys compile a list of who gets the leader rule and I'll print it in CL27.
| By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:49 am: Edit |
Kzinti DW, CM
Lyran DW, CW
Hydran DWF/DWH, HR/TR, LN/KN
Fed DW, NCL
Rom SK, SP
Gorn BD, HD
Kling F5W, D5
ISC DD, FF
| By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:33 pm: Edit |
Only going from memory here, but...
Wasn't there a Kzinti CL leader?
And is there a Romulan Seahawk Leader?
I also think there's a Gorn DDL, yes?
And wasn't it determined that the ISC DDL is its own ship, just like the F5L (thus not showing up as leader versions in battlegroups)?
I don't know where to look to confirm any of these.
| By John Colacito (Sandro) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:09 pm: Edit |
I need to clarify something from (305.5) the "leader rule."
-Are you allowed any combination of three "leader-capable" ships in order to qualify for the extra +1 compot?
- Or must you have 3 ships of the same class such as 3xSK or 3xSEH?
I believe the former would be correct and I point to two precedents: CL #24 allows the Hydrans any combo of 3xDD/DWs to qualify for a leader. (315.31) also allows the Kzinti any combo of 3xCL/CM for a leader as well.
| By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit |
When specific cases are given, it's far more likely that these are the ONLY cases that can have mixed followers than it is that they indicate some unwritten rule that anybody can have mixed followers.
| By John Colacito (Sandro) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:35 pm: Edit |
Ah, cool, thanks for the clarification.
| By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:02 pm: Edit |
One comment from an SFBer: the SPL is simply a SPA with two hull boxes turned into flag boxes. Thus if you guys are trying to say it's one point better in F&E terms, that is incorrect.
Kevin,
Yes there is a Seahawk leader, a good ship with a very amusing historical description...
There is indeed a Gorn DDL; also a nice little ship.
The Kzinti CLC was in CL20, apparently. I have no idea if that makes it a part of F&E or not.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:30 pm: Edit |
Justing,
F&E just kinda subsumes a lit of those things.
The rules are already there. We are just making a list of all ships in the rule that get the bonus.
Also, just because there is a ship called a leader in SFB, does not neccessarily mean it will get a leader point in F&E.
Also guys, remember that you only get the leader point if ALL three ships are vanilla.
| By Philippe Le Bas (Phil) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 04:38 am: Edit |
Here is what I found in the rules and published erratas
(303.5)
* three or more CWs (not variants)
F-NCL K-D5 R-SP Z-CM G-HD H-TR H-HR L-CW
* three or more DWs (not variants)
F-DW K-F5W R-SK Z-DW G-BD H-DWF H-DWH L-DW
* (Included in this rule are all ships designated DW, Gorn DDs, Kzinti FFs, and Romulan SKs and SHs. Excluded are Klingon F5 and F5L, Tholian DD, and Hydran CR.) See (755.0).
Z-FF G-DD R-SEH
CL#26 Hydran DDs (Lancer and Knight) are included in this leader rule, and a combination of Hydran DDs and DWs can gain the leader bonus.
H-KN H-LN
So it gives :
Ships Which status is defined by published rules:
| Race | CW | DW | (303.5) | CL#26 |
| Federation | NCL | DW | ||
| Klingon | D5 | F5W | ||
| Romulan | SP | SK | SEH | |
| Kzinti | CM | DW | FF | |
| Gorn | HD | BD | DD | |
| Hydran | HR/TR | DWF/DWH | KN/LN | |
| Lyran | CW | DW |
| By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 06:19 am: Edit |
Adv Ops
(315.31) Allows Z-CL and any combination of Z-CL and Z-CW
One could argue for the K-D6 (as the D6C exists), all of the others on Philippes list above would appear not to have leader versions. (or have leaders as seperate counters)
| By Philippe Le Bas (Phil) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 07:30 am: Edit |
SHIPS QUALIFIED AS LEADERS (303.5)
Ah ....Zut, I missed (315.31), here is a corrected version:
F&E2k (303.5)
* three or more CWs (not variants)
F-NCL K-D5 R-SP Z-CM G-HD H-TR H-HR L-CW
* three or more DWs (not variants)
F-DW K-F5W R-SK Z-DW G-BD H-DWF H-DWH L-DW
* (Included in this rule are all ships designated DW, Gorn DDs, Kzinti FFs, and Romulan SKs and SHs. Excluded are Klingon F5 and F5L, Tholian DD, and Hydran CR.) See (755.0).
Z-FF G-DD R-SEH
AdvOps (315.31) Three Kzinti CLs could use this rule, as could any mix of three Kzinti CLs and CMs. (This reflects that the Kzintis fielded a command version of their CL. Other races do not have such ships in the SFB datafiles at this time and until such ships are published for SFB those races cannot use the leader rule for CLs.)
Z-CL
CL#26 Hydran DDs (Lancer and Knight) are included in this leader rule, and a combination of Hydran DDs and DWs can gain the leader bonus.
H-KN H-LN
So it gives :
Ships Which status is defined by published rules:
| Race | CW | DW | (303.5) | (315.31) | CL#26 |
| Federation | NCL | DW | |||
| Klingon | D5 | F5W | |||
| Romulan | SP | SK | SEH | ||
| Kzinti | CM | DW | FF | CL | |
| Gorn | HD | BD | DD | ||
| Hydran | HR/TR | DWF/DWH | KN/LN | ||
| Lyran | CW | DW |
| By Philippe Le Bas (Phil) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 07:36 am: Edit |
I have to check my CL#25, I think status of some ISC ships might be defined here.
| By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 08:20 am: Edit |
CL25 (p109 bottom of 1st column) says ISC DD's can use the leader rule, but no other ISC classes can use the rule
| By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 08:22 am: Edit |
re : Variants
It occured to me from my SFB days that Klingon D5 sqns usually contained one variant, one leader, and one base hull. The same may be true of the Feds.
If this is the case, there should be an exception for those races that operated varients in the CW sqns, allowing one variant hull.
Joe
| By Jeff Laikind (J_Laikind) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 10:32 am: Edit |
I don't know about D5s, Joe, but I do recall that F5 squadrons were typically:
F5C, F5, F5D on the Kzinti border and sometimes Feds
F5C, 2xF5 on the Hydran border, also sometimes Feds
The F5D being operationally identical for F&E purposes to the F5, it doesn't exist in F&E. So the F5Q covers both versions.
| By John Colacito (Sandro) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:06 pm: Edit |
Isn't the FK the leader version of the Kzinti FF? In that case we'd take the Kzinti FF off the leader list.
The Fed FFB can qualify for the leader rule if combined with DWs, but this is explained in (525.311) anyway.
I assume the Hydrans get a leader with any combo of HR and/or TR right? Do we need a "note" for this one?
Richard is right, I think the rest of the ships on Philippe's undefined list don't have leaders. Unless of course SFB feels motivated by F&E and creates leader versions of the Fed FF, Klingon E4, and Lyran FF. 
| By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 02:01 pm: Edit |
I haven't calculated anything but D6C's could be represented and thus subsumed by D7s, +1AV. if you want the +1CR, I'd say use a D7C.
Scenarios regarding squadrons.
SH32.0 has a D5 squadron as part of a Klingon force. D5L, D5DK, D5K.
SH157.0 has D5L, D5K, D5D by themselves attacking 2 Federation ships.
If anything, I could see an exception for Fed NCD, Klingon D5D and Kzinti MDC & DF. Basically all the non-sensor drone ships.
All of the following is opinion based on printed material.
Ships which status must be defined (all FF included):
Federation: DD, FF, FFB
DD doesn't have a leader. (R2.27) doesn't have improved command facilities or firepower to qualify. FF has no leader either. FFB is too few in numbers built and would count under FFs I believe.
Klingon : F6, E4
F6 I see as out, see Fed FFB and call it a wash. E4s can and have operated in place of F5s in squadrons. You could always count a F5 as a leader for 2E4s, like the F5L/F5 situation. You could claim the Fed FF and Kli E4 are a wash leaving the AWC and CVC happy.
Romulan : BH, K5, K5L, K4, SN, SNB
K5 has K5L like Klingon F5/F5L. K4 was probably too few for a leader, count it as the Klingon E4. As for the others, no 'leader' versions of Hawk-series ships exist other than the KE.
Kzinti : DD, FFK
DD has no leader, too few historically for it. Given the need to make FKEs, besides (R5.46) states the FFK functioned as a FF leader (so maybe the Kzinti FF no longer qualifies when using AO as there is no true FFL). I would say remove the Kzinti FF from the leader rule and call it a wash against the Romulan K4, even with Phillipe's screams.
Tholian : NFF, PC
Orion : CR, DBR, BR, LR, SLV
No leader versions of these exist. Orions really didn't operate 'leaders', if you stick a Flag Bridge in an option box, you're cutting down firepower.
Hydran : CU, HN, PGC
CR (and someday SAR) is the leader for CU and HN. Wouldn't the PGF count for the PGC by CL25 descriptions?
ISC : CL, CM, CS, DD, DDL, FF, FFL
Haven't looked.
| By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 02:02 pm: Edit |
John C. posted while I did so I missed the 'FFB counts as DW' note.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 04:00 pm: Edit |
The FFK did indeed force the Kzin to give up the FF leader bonus. But no complaints
I reslly would like to see the leader point only if vanilla stay. Otherwise you get groups of 2xD5+D5S and are getting that one extra point and all the EW> So, lets just leave it the way it is.
| By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 05:09 pm: Edit |
Chris, the only ships I considered adding are the non-scout drone ships. Each has the same compot as the base hull when on the line. Nothing else.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 05:40 pm: Edit |
True, but if you get one type in, it will be easier to argue to get others in. You can already put all the varients (except carriers of course) in the BG. I just think that the Leader rule is fine as is.
| By Justin Howell (Jhhowell) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 07:13 pm: Edit |
Chris,
OK, so as I understand what you've said the Sparrowhawk should not be getting this leader point. There is a leader, but it's no better (very very slightly worse, actually) than the regular hull. But it looks like it's already in the rules as getting this bonus, so it may have to be left as it is...
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:04 am: Edit |
Actually, what I am saying is that for the sake of easy playing I think that the current rules are fine and that the ships that currently get the leader bonus are fine as is. I.E. Sparrohawk with the Leader bonus is fine by me.
There are checks and balances on everything, so there is little point on going in to a written rule and tearing it up unless there is something good gained for the game.
| By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:05 am: Edit |
If you think of the Leader bonus as also representing the improved C&C and thus operations of a group, that is easier than just looking at a weapon count.
| By Philippe Le Bas (Phil) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 08:05 am: Edit |
And what about CA ?
Like this: after Y??? (when CCH/CB comes), for every squadron of three CA/CC you receive the 1 Pt leader bonus ?
ah ahh ahh 
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