Archive through September 02, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
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Tholian Ships for SFB/F&E :
Archive through September 02, 2003
I was looking at the release of new tholian ships, and a significant anomoly struck me, namely that the tholians bring out their CVA in Y173, yet have no heavt escort until Y179 (CWE). Furthermore, the CVA "normally" only has 2 PCE as its escorts, and F&E play suggests it would be madness to deploy the CVA in that form unless it was protected by a base's Web.
I understand these are "obvious" variants, so SVC porbably has SSDs for them on file, but I would like to suggest that either a CE or a DE would have been built by the tholians to escort their one (I assume) CVA, being developed around Y175 (2 years after the CVA, when they realise how inadequate 2 PCE are).
DE would be a 5-6 unit.
CE would be converted from a C, but could also be a double conversion C-> "CC" -> CCE. It could be a 7-9 (this would probably be too powerful) or more likely (as a CE), a 6-8 or 7-8. I don't think the tholians have an acute heavy hull problem, and could probably release a C. A CCE could also be a unique tholian "perk".
A second option would be for the tholians to invent a bit of command/control technology that allows them to insert a BW (or BW variant) as the inner escort. This would be powerful, but the Tholian fleet is *seriously* lacking in quality compot before the 312th arrives. Again, this could be driven by the fact that the CVA would be an offensive unit, and BWs are useless again unless protected by web.
Thirdly, I note that in SFB, the Tholians have a Web caster variant of thier monitor. This could easily be represented in F&E as the Web caster rules are already in place.
Finally, as the Tholians have web, there could be an anomoly in thier carrier escort doctrine. It occured to me that a Monitor variant could be an escort when defending a base (only). This is a non-obvious variant (MON-E), and probably isn't in SVC's files. The idea is that as the fleet is defending the base, the fact that the monitor is slow is immaterial. An all-phaser monitor escort would also be very effective behind web.
Please use this thread for any other Tholian ideas. Apologies in advance if there is a tholian heavy escort that I am unaware of, and it is simply not in F&E yet.
A Tholian DE was published in J2 (YIS Y175). Wouldn't surprise me if it showed up in FO.
Not sure the Tholians would create a cruiser-sized escort. The only reason I think it might happen would be if the only two hulls available at the time the conversion started were two PCEs. That would be one heck of a ship though (a 2xPCE CE would have 12-16 phasers in the FA).42
The Tholians also start with only 4 CAs (and have none on their pre-war build schedule). Even in wartime, they only build 1 per year.
I can't see that they'd give up their flagship for something like a CE. After all, they are supposed to fight behind web - the lack of good escorts seems to be within their racial "flavor".
Tony
The tholians build DNs pre-war! In my books, that's better than a CA. Once those DNs are out, the flagship requirement for the tholian fleet is fulfilled, and they are built *before* the CVA is aviailable. To top that, the CVA is built before the tholians were historically attacked and started losing hulls, so the tholians would be able to spare a heavy hull.
Bear in mind that the whole fleet is not much more than 30 ships (if that IIRC). Two DNs and a couple of CCs is plenty for command purposes, especially given they also have the CVA.
The Tholian CVA is a key unit. Without it, the tholians have virtually no effective offensive capability prior to the Neo-tholians. While offensives are not a tholian forte, every fleet needs *some* capability.
I really think if the tholians spent 34EP on their CVA (some of it hidden by "free" fighters), they could at least spend 9EP on a decent heavy escort.
Having said that, the DE as published could fill in the gap, and is certainly required in F&E.
Good escorts will fight better behind web than normal ships, as they will be all-phaser ships!
David Slatter:
I believe you are mixing apples and oranges comparing the Tholians in F&E with the Tholians in SFB. To some extent this is true of every race since F&E must of necessity elide lots of individual ship differences. But I think it's more true of the Tholians then for most other races. One huge difference is that in F&E the Tholian fighters are as good as everyone else's, with a few exceptions such as the F-14/F-15/Stinger-X. In SFB, Tholian fighters are inexpensive and durable but are slower than other races' late-war fighters and have MUCH less firepower. In F&E the Tholians need CVAs. In a Star Fleet Battles campaign they can get along quite well without them.
DAS,
The CA doesn't appear on the build schedule (even in wartime) until Y178. So, unless you want to convert them (with your 1 SB) or skip a DN build, there aren't that many around to make into CEs (I'm assuming the 1 ship per turn on even turns is going to be a DN or possibly BW - not a CA/CC).
So, until Y178, they'll have a total of 4 CA (and 0 CCs barring conversions). What I meant by flagship was a string line ship (I know - my statement was very misleading).
For other races, putting a CA on the line is almost a last resort. By the time the BC, 3CVs, BG, Mauler, Drone ships, etc are on the line, there isn't much room for CAs. For the Tholians, it's a different game. They NEED those CAs to fill out their lines.
FYI - I do agree with your point on the DE (didn't know it was in J2 myself either). Also, the escort monitor makes a lot of sense for the Tholians escecially. Why stick photons/disruptors on it when it's mission is to be near the base/planet behind web...
The Web Caster armed monitor makes sense, but I can't see a player ever putting their 1 WC per turn on a monitor. It should always go on a DN/CA.
David Slatter:
P.S. The escorts are a little better than the non-escort versions of the same hull at fighting behind web, but not all that much. They usually have the same number of Ph-1s as the non-escorts but more Ph-3s. If the Tholians are defending a base from behind web, the critical range is usually 3 hexes (attacking ship trapped on outer ring, defending ship behind middle ring), at which range a Ph-1 averages 4.33 points of damage (no DRM) while a Ph-3 averages 1 point. So a standard Tholian DD (4 Ph-1s, 2 Ph-3s) averages 19.33 points of damage per turn from behind the web while the escort version (4 Ph-1s, 6-Ph-3s) averages 23.33 points. The escort is better but it's hardly a crushing difference. Prior to the introduction of PFs, the most cost effective web defender the Tholians have is the CPA (Tholian CA with Ph-1s replacing the Disr, total weapons - 10 Ph-1s, 4 Ph-3s).
Tony Barnes:
I absolutely agree with you that, given their limited webcaster production in this galaxy, the Tholians should put every one they can build on main-line warships (cruisers and dreadnoughts). I'm less convinced about the "escort monitor", largely because its weapon suite is (so far) undefined. The standard Tholian monitor has 6 Ph-1s, 6 Disr, and 8 Ph-3s for its weaponry. Escorts usually trade heavy weapons for increased Ph-3 firepower. But as I argued in a previous post, ships dedicated to web defense need heavy Ph-1, rather tha Ph-3 firepower. Now if the "escort monitor" traded its Disr for Ph-1s on a 1-1 basis and its Ph-3s for Ph-1s on a 2-1 basis, giving it 16 Ph-1s but no other weapons (it should keep the web generators, however) it would be an absolute monster of a web defense ship.
Tony
On you comment that the CA is required as a string line ship, which partial line would you rather field?
CVA-PCE-PCE-PCE + CA
(three escorts required for safety).
OR
CVA-CE-PCE-PCE + PC.
Me, I'd go for the latter every time, even if it lost me 1 compot. The fact that I am making one of my four precious C's untouchable makes it worth it.
But I understand your argument, each C hull the Tholians have is precious.
NB the Tholians have three starbases, so conversions arn't a problem. EPs won't be either if the alliance supports them properly.
On the escort monitor issue - pretty much every other ship/variant combination in the galaxy can trade direct-fire heavy weapons for Ph-1. I see no reason why monitors should not be able to do this. Normally, you would not want to, as your long range firepower would be compromised. When behind web, however.....
I'd think the theoretical escort monitor could reasonably have
6xPh-1 -> 6xPh-1 (ie, no change)
8xPh-3 -> 8xPh-3 (ie, no change)
2xDisr -> 2xPh-1
4xDisr -> 8xPh-3 (2 for 1 swap)
For web defense, I'd rather have a 8 Ph-1, 16 Ph-3 ship that can't be shot back at than a 8 Ph-1, 6 Disr, 8 Ph-3 ship that has to expose itself to get disruptor shots in.
As you said, at range 3, Ph-3 only average 1 point each - but if you get 8 extra, that's still a lot.
Tony
Posts crossed - your suggestion looks fine to me.
Sorry - my assumption was if the Tholians are at war, the Coalition killed the outlying SBs (otherwise, why bother attacking).
I see your point in that situation with the CE. However, I was looking at the flexibility of that CA. The CA could show up on the line anyplace (even while the CVA is busy someplace else). Also, survivability isn't really a big concern IMHO - MOST battles will be behind web. With their extemely limited number of ships, I don't see much of a reason for them ever to leave the holdfast (at least until the 312th shows up).
at start: 26 total ships
T7: 37 total ships
T22: 61 total ships (Y179 - CWE now available)
Even with that late introduction date, they still don't have the number of ships required to go on any sort of offensive - just say no to leaving the Holdfast 
By the way:
Regarding my "apples and oranges" comment above, and my discussion about Tholian fighters in SFB in the same post, I think the Tholians in F&E get a good deal on fighters but a bad deal on web defense. In other words, Tholian fighters are more useful in F&E than they are in SFB. But the web rules in F&E actually undervalue the true strength of the web in SFB.
Just my opinion FWIW, but an opinion supported by several SFB campaigns in which I played the Tholians.
Tony
In a normal war, the tholians will be on the offensive during the short period they are active. The Klingons and Lyrans certainly won't be foolish enough to attack Tholian bases, and would have already taken Tholia earlier if that was their objective.
Therefore, it is of some importance that the tholians can put up a decent offensive line without having to sacrifice too many heavy hulls.
Why do the Tholians need bigger escorts than a PCE in the early war? THey are on the defensive and at bases their ships can't be directed upon.
If they go an pin away from the base, they feed the fighters forward if a mauler is present.
Then DE's are introduced, and then a CVA+DE+DE is a 20 defense group (as good as any other CWV group usually) and could have a 3rd DE for 26 defense. (Heck it can have 4 escorts, it's a CVA)
If they fear a mauler/x-ship then just feed the fighters forward. At Density 6, they are just as dense as DDs and even better than PCs
Scott.
First, given that the DE is already out, then perhaps the tholians do not need a heavier escort. However, it will protect their C hulls, which they have precious few of.
CVA+CE+DE+DE is 28 defence, difficult to cripple with a mauler. That would be useful. 42 is much more achievable than 46.
Feeding forward fighters is something best avoided. The group above will have a density of ~9.2. Fighters fed foward accompanied by 2DD will have a significantly lower density of 6.
But I take your point, with the DE, the tholians do not "need" a larger escort. It would just be an excellent way of protecting a C.
"Feeding forward fighters is something best avoid."
We're talking Tholians here, not Klingons.
How often do they get density 6 ships? How often do they field a battlegroup?
Disposable, density 6 is good for the Tholians.
BTW, J2 introduced the CWE for the Tholians also, that seems to fit the bill for them nicely.
2PCs ->CW
PC+C ->D
And all Tholians are then happy.
Quote:BTW, J2 introduced the CWA for the Tholians also, that seems to fit the bill for them nicely.
Crap. I completely forgot about that. YIS 179. Nice ship - 7xPh-1 and 6xPh-3. 42
1 - Tholians don't need a larger escort than ones already in print. Other than the Klingon AD6, name the CA-escorts in history.
2 - Just name the year the Tholians get to use (318.4).
3 - Name the year and propose that, until a counter is made, the Tholians can convert the MON from that year forward to use web-caster rules.
4 - Explain why nobody else gets to have their MONs act as base escorts. And no, web doesn't justify it.
I see the phaser monitor as a bad idea. A monitor is designed to be at a planet, not at a base. As such, it will be, at best, behind a single layer of web, not a full wedding cake (or buzzsaw or other fancy pattern). As such, it needs the disruptors, otherwise its crunch is way too low to avoid having the enemy "crash" the web and exchange shots.
The Tholians have no planets except for the homeworld (IIRC).
The homeworld will always have a SB (if not, the Tholians are in trouble anyway).
So, I think the monitor will always have access to a bases web.
Presumably the Tholian monitor was designed for mobile protection of minor mining and ag stations in tholian space.
Remember that the planets we see in F&E represent only a trivial fraction of inhabited systems, there are a LOT of other systems that have something of value in each province. Defenses for these are ignored in F&E (much like the fed national guard, the various police forces, and the bulk of the merchant marine), but they do exist and the Tholian monitor should be able to function at such locations.
If all they are ever going to defend is the homeworld they are wasting a LOT of money on ships and bases outside the homeworld.
David Kass:
Even at a conventional Earth-like planet, the Tholians can construct a two-tier wedding cake. The planet occupies one hex. The six adjacent hexes are the planet's atmosphere (no web). Two hexes from the planet is where the monitor would operate. Three hexes from the planet would be the inner (18 hex) web. Four hexes - open space. Five hexes - the outer (30 hex) web. So the monitor could still fight from behind the inner ring against a ship on the outer ring. It's true that if the planet were sufficiently large it would be impossible to surround it with web, or with only a single ring. But even in this case, if asteroids were present the Tholians could put up "buzz-saw" type defenses around the planet. And as long as the planet+atmosphere occupied no more than 7 hexes total, the Tholians could use a two-tier wedding cake even without asteroids.
(The Tholians themselves could not live on an Earth-like planet except in environmentally sealed conditions, of course.)
But unless the Tholians have a fleet or lots of web anchors handy they will not have that much web at start. Even if they do have web anchors they are likely to support only zero strength web most of the time, and a monitor plus a handful of other units cannot POWER that much web in a useful period of time.
The purpose of a monitor is to protect stuff you cannot afford to put a base or a fleet on, assuming a base or a fleet is allways available to support a monitor is thus contraindicated.
The F&E use to buff up major defenses is presumably an emergency wartime measure, the normal foe is a few pirates in an action where the monitor is more or less on it's own, at most supported by 1 PDU and a police ship.
I don't believe one can put anchors that near a planet (regardless of what SFB says, one cannot put asteroids that close to a planet and expect them to stay in place--at least without being in orbit, which will prevent them from being used as anchors). And without anchors, the web cannot be maintained on strategic scales (anchors provide the energy to maintain 0 strenght web). Thus the monitor would have to form it at the start of the battle and at best it will get a signle globular web in place. Given this, there will not be any web at a planet (at least one where the monitor would be stationed).