(3TB.0) Tactical Blitzing
Background:
Throughout the ages of combat, it has been recoginized if you can overcome your opponent in a small area, you can then send forces through the hole you have created to cause havoc in your opponent's rear area. This is no different in space combat, if you are able to overwhelm your opponent in a small area, you can send your forces through to attack your opponent's vunerable supply lines.

(3TB.1) After the results of combat has been determined (ie all damage points are distributed). If the difference in the die rolls in any battleround is 4 or greater, and more damage points are inflicted by the side that rolled higher, the side that rolled higher is considered to be at an advantage and may conduct a tactical blitz. Resulting in an opportunity to strike into the rear areas of his opponent. For all referances below, side that rolled higher is considered 'advantaged', and the side the rolled lower is considered 'disadvantaged.'
(3TB.11) The Advantaged may take any one ship, not in a group already (ie Carrier, PFT, Commando),and not the Battleforce Flagship, and up to 2 fast/X-ships which are in the current battleround, all which must be uncrippled. The advantaged player then chooses 1 target to attack that is in the Disadvanataged player's "Reserve" area. That targeted ship will then must be included in the next resulting battle.

(3TB.12) The Disadvantaged player will then roll one die and consult the following chart: It is possible to get 6+ with any combination of die roll modifiers (ie EW).

Die roll	differ 4	differ 5	differ 6+
1	1	1	1
2	2	2	1
3	2	2	2
4	3	2	2
5	3	3	2
6	3	3	3

(3TB.13) The Disadvantaged then chooses the number of ships or SE's of fighters/PFs listed on the chart as the number of additional ships that may defend the target in the subsequent battle. These ships/units must be from the Reserve area, any ships in the current Battleforce may not be used.

(3TB.14) A new, sub-battle is created with these ships. The Advanataged side, verses the Disadvantaged side. This battle lasts one 'battle round', and may use Advanced Small Unit combat if eligible. Both sides choose BIR and roll for VBIR as normal. After the one round of battle the advantaged player's ships return to their Reserve Area and the Blitzing Battle is complete.

(3TB.2) This entire process takes place, after damage determination, and before choose retreat options. If a player that does a tactical blitz, then retreats, his opponent gets a -1 to attempt to catch the retreating force. As the retreating force had to wait for the Blitzing forces to catch up to the retreating force.

Example #1.
A Kzinti Force of DN, 3*[CV+MEC+EFF], CC, TGT+2SP attack a Coalition force of D7C, D6V+2E4A, 3*[FV+F5E], F5S, BATS. The Kzinti's have 2FCR and 2FF in reserve, the Klingons have an E4R, and 3 Lyran FF in reserve.

The Kzinti have: 93 COMPOT, 4 EW, roll a natural 6
The Klingons have: 78 COMPOT, 2 EW, roll a modified 2

The Kzinti do more damage, and have a '4' difference, and choose to conduct a Tactical Blitz, and target the E4R. The Coalition then rolls under the '4' column, and rolls a 3, resulting in the Coalition being able to choose 2 additional ships to intercept the Kzinti Blitz. As only 3 Lyran FF's are available, 2 are choose.

Thus a 'mini combat' occurs. 1 Kzinti CC verses 2 Lyran FF and a Klingon E4R. This battle will then use Advanced Small scale combat, with no modifier as both sides have 9 COMPOT.

Example #2.
Same situation as before, but with different ships:
A Kzinti force of DN, 2*[CV+MEC+FKE], BF, CC, 2DD, TGT+SP attack a Coaltion force of D7C, D6V+2E4A, 3*[FV+F5E], F5S, BATS. The Kzinti have 2FCR and 2FF in reserve, the Klingons have an E4R and 3 Lyran FF in reserve.

The Kzinti have 92 COMPOT, 4EW, roll a natural 5
The Klingons have 78 COMPOT, 2 EW, roll a modified 1

The Kzinti do more damage, and have a '4' difference, and choose to conduct a Tactical Blitz, and target the E4R. The Kzinti decide to use the BF+CC as the Tactical Blitz ships. The Coalition then rolls under the '4' column, and rolls a 4, resulting in the Coalition being able to bring 3 additional ships to intercept the Kzinti force.

Thus a 'mini' combat occurs. A Kzinti force of BF+CC verses a Coalition force of 3 Lyran FF and a Klingon E4R. This battle will not use Advanced Small Scale combat, and both sides will choose BIR as normal, which will only last one battleround. It shall be 16 COMPOT verse 14 COMPOT (3 L-FF =4*3+1 leader+E4R)

Example #3:
The Klingons attack the Federation 3rd Fleet Starbase on Turn 7.
The Klingons have: C8, TGA+2BP, D7V+AD5+F5E, 6D5, 9F5, D6S, F5S, 6E4, 3D6D, D6M, MD5, Admiral
The Federation have: DN, CC, CF, 2CA, 3DD, 6FF, CVS+DE+FFE, CVB+DE+FFE, SC, Admiral

3rd Round
The Federation battle line is: DN, CC, CF, CVS+crip DE+crip FFE, CVB+crip DE+crip FFE, 3FF, SC, SB w/ 0 fighters
The Klingons battle line is: C8, TGA+2BP, D7V+AD5+F5E+0ftr, 3D5, 3F5, 2E4, D6S, 2D6D (drone bombardment)
The Klingon Reserve is: crip D6M, 6 crip F5, 4E4, F5S

The Federation have: 106 COMPOT, 5 EW
The Klingons have: 95 COMPOT, 4 EW

The Federation rolls a natural 6, the Klingons roll a 1. The Federation then has an option to conduct a Tactical Blitz with a CF and CC. The Federation choose to attack the Crippled D6M in the Reserve area. The Klingons then roll under the '5' column. And roll a '6', allowing them to intercept the Federation ships with 3 ships. A F5S and 2 E4's are selected. A new, one round battle of CF+CC verses crippled D6M, F5S, and 2E4 is fought. 16 COMPOT verses 14 COMPOT + 1EW.

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Pros: More ship kills as crippled ships can be targeted before a side retreats A Big incentive to have Fast Ships on the battleline.
Cons: Longer battles (occassionally, not too often) Side with higher EW advantage might be too much (ie Coalition at the start) if depending on Advanced Small Unit Combat w/ Frigate Scouts. Might hurt Alliance early on, as then you'd have to escort CVEs instead of them being glorified FCRs.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

It's been a little quiet down here on the proposals board.

Lets start a ruckus. :-D

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit

I think this is an terribly bad idea.

There is already enough damage done to both sides, and the early through mid Coalition will use a rule like this to destroy those crippled targets of opportunity, like DNs and Battletugs and all sorts of other juicy targets.

Bad, bad. bad.

Also, imagine the Hydrans using their two LGEs and a LB to go after something. That's 42 COMPOT right there, add in Prime Teams and it become another battle in the same battle round.

Just no.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:43 pm: Edit

this will be of benifit to the hydrans (when they are willing to put up a cruiser-heavy line) and the coalition far more then the rest of the alliance.

note that two things have to take place.

1. a die roll difference of 4 or more (fair)
2. more damage then your opponent (favors the side with the higher compot)

even if this rule were to trigger evenly for both sides it would be to the advantage of the side with more depth in their fleet (the coalition) as they are more likly to have good ships to respond to the blitz with

later in the war these conditions will balance out, but for the first half of the war this will benifit the coalition

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 06:29 am: Edit

As written, this rule would probably heavily favor the defender. He’d be fighting over his own defenses where the much higher compots would make it hard for an attacker to do more damage. It would make hitting a capital that much more dangerous due to the basic fact that initially the defender will always do more damage so any time he gets a much better die role he gets to stick it to the attacker again.

I also don’t like the idea that the attacker gets to pick what units in the reserve he gets to attack. The ships in the reserve aren’t just sitting there. They’re moving around patrolling the rear to keep retreat routes open. Additionally, any prize target is likely going to have an entire fleet defending it, just in case. If I’m the Klingons and I’ve got a large reserve when you breach my line; that crippled C8 you want to attack is going to be guarded by 5 or 6 D5s and an FV, not by two D5s. If I’m attacking the Hydran capital, every CR10 ship I have is going to have a full 10 ship fleet and a scout if available.

If people really want a rule to reflect a breach in the line, a more realistic way to go is to disqualify all uncrippled ships in the current battle line from use in the breach battle (unless the player does not have sufficient ships to fill out the new battle line) if their line has been breached. Ships that are part of a group with a crippled ship in it remain a group and may be part of the breach round.

The breaching player must keep all uncrippled units from the current battle round in the breach battle round. Cripples & fighters may be replaced normally. Also, if defending a fixed position the breaching player must accept an offered approach battle (fight away from the fixed defense) or give up the advantage of breaching the enemy line.

In any case, a player who qualifies to conduct a breach battle is not obligated to require the breach battle.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 06:48 am: Edit

An even simpler idea is to allow a player who has 'breached the line' to be able to conduct his one DD attack with the damage penalty reduced by 1. Ships hit at 2 for 1 are hit at 1 for 1. Ships DD’d at 3 for 1 are hit at 2 for 1. Maulers still suffer the same restrictions, but if a ship can be hit at 1 for 1, the mauler hits it at 0.5 for 1. The breached player still gets only one DD attack, but gets it at 1 to 1 against ships not in a form bonus or support role.

This gives the breaching player an advantage, but at a slight cost.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 10:36 am: Edit

Dan, I think your suggestion is even more unbalanced then the original. A mauler at .5 to 1 hitting a dreadnaught in form would be able to kill it with only 26 damage. Way to powerful.

Dreadnaught in form 12/6 at 2 for 1 (using mauler for .5 to 1) first 10 + (2x2)+(6x2)=26.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 10:52 am: Edit

Chris

"There is already enough damage done to both sides, and the early through mid Coalition"

I was very surprised to see you write this. I am not sure I have ever played a turn in F&E where there was a net reduction in fleets overall. I am told that there are significantly greater casulaties in the winds of fire scenarios, but even then I doubt that fleets are getting blown up significantly faster than they are being built.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 11:38 am: Edit

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Quote:

Daniel said:
I also don’t like the idea that the attacker gets to pick what units in the reserve he gets to attack.

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By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 11:41 am: Edit

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Quote:

Daniel also said:
As written, this rule would probably heavily favor the defender.

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By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Scott,

what if the 'blitz' is not against the Reserves but a ship (or ships) in the line that are isolated from the rest of the fleet due to the breach.

The 'blitzer' choose a target ship on the line (non formation or free scout) and then the 'blitzee' can add 1-3 ships that were on the line to help defend the target ship.

Speciality ships and crippled ships would be prime targets.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:28 pm: Edit

Specialty ships being prime targets would ruin the Coalition, and only help the Alliance.

Most of the time, the 'Alliance specialty ship' the COalition wants dead is Carriers.

Coalition specialty ships wanted dead are (in no particular order): Maulers, Statis, Scout, Drone, Carriers

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Some items to consider on the original proposal.

Questions:
1) Can a group be added as the extra defenders?
2) Should a group be able to be targeted (i.e. Escort CVs)?
3) Do +/- points from this extra battle carry over to the next round?

Comments:
If the 'blitzee' has any DNs/CCs/CAs in his Reserve, the 'blitzer' will not be fought using small scale combat and the 'blitzer' will not be able to destroy his target, but will instead exchange cripples (one blitzing ship and one blitz defender crippled). Only in small battles with no heavy ships in Reserve will ships be killed.

The defender of fixed defenses can activate this more, but in open space this favors the side with more ships.

As written I think it favors the Coalition at the start/middile of the war because:
1) Helps them do more damage when defending targets from counterattacks.
2) Have more ships and bigger ships, allowing them to keep 'bigger' ships in the Reserves to protect assets.
3) Have more large ships to use (i.e. Lyran DN/BC) which don't have to worry about a Mauler. The large Alliance Ships have a lower production rate and must be protected from Maulers.
4) Will discourage pin battles by small Alliance forces with small reserves which could be attacked and destroyed.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

OK, here's an example of a blitz on a line ship.

A crippled D6D/D6M/D7A, with an average of 2 ships added to protect it. Pair of D5s from the line. Total Defense 18. Even a F5L and a F5 (total 15) will protect it from the small ship combat table.

Since the D6D/D6M/D7A would be in formation (since normal combat is being used) it would take 12 points to destroy it, fairly hard to do at the COMPOTs the blitzer could bring to bear (30 to 40 would be at the high end). So what will happen is that both sides end up with an extra crippled ship. The blitzee MAY have to destroy one to protect the cripple if he is using FFs or DDs, and the opponent has the largest force he can deploy (but the odds of that happening are highly unlikely).

Only if the blitzer rolled so that only 1 extra ship could protect the cripple, or if the blitzee only DDs/FFs to use, would combat be resolved using Advanced Small Scale Combat. And even that doesn't guarantee an Automatic Kill.

Remember, the same thing can happen to Alliance Scouts that are put on the line to fight the Coalition EW advantage. Also, this can be used to decimate Alliance destroyer/frigate squadrons being used as pin forces.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Try this, define a blitz situation (however we decide is best): In the following round the side being blitzed must use all surviving crippled ships from the current battle round in the battleforce. The followup round is otherwise fought normally.

If a blitz round is fought then the side conducting the blitz may not use any fixed defenses.

The idea is that with the enemy breaking through it is harder to pull the cripples back to safety.

This gives more ship kills (since the side being blitzed will probably kill frigates rather than cripple NCAs) but without making it vastly easier to kill good units, the Alliance still kills fighters, the coalition kills battlegroup ships.

Probably slightly pro-coalition since you can maul a key unit then hit it again in the second round and the alliance will be unlikely to cripple inner escorts if they are forced to stick arround.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:47 pm: Edit

And since someone was talking about ugly 'blitzing forces' (with regard to the 2 LGEs + CC).

Coalition Ugly Force = Mauler supported by 2 Fast Cruisers! 24 COMPOT capable of MAULING!!! Who cares if the Alliance uses formation to protect its crippled ship, its still going to get smoked

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Ya know, if you made the "blitzing" ships Fast ships/X-ships only this might not be that bad a thing......

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 02:08 pm: Edit

Well, I'd think with only a CF (7 COMPOT), it won't do much against a CW if it gets intercepted

Thus nothing will happen. I think the 'blitzing' force needs at least 2 ships to guarentee a 'hit' on something.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 02:28 pm: Edit

It depends on what is getting 'blitzed'.

A CF blitzing a uncrippled CW using single ship combat, is different than a CF blitzing a crippled CW.

How about this:

The player who rolled higher AND did more damage can declare a 'blitz' attempt with one ship in the main battle force that is not in formation or a group. He must roll less than the difference between the two combat resolution dice (as modified by EW). There is an additional -1 modifier if the blitzing ship is a fast ship.

If successful, One enemy ship (not in formation, not a free scout, and not in a group) can be engaged in single ship combat. This combat is considered part of the same comat round, so no fighter transfers, Prime Team moves, or any other group restructuring is allowed.

If using any ship is too powerful, we could limit this to Fast/X-Ships.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 02:59 pm: Edit

That's what I am saying, use up to three fast ships...

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 03:25 pm: Edit

If anyone's lumping together 3 fast ships (well besides when x-ships come out), all are on the line, and just 'waiting' to Blitz (as it is now) Players are looking to get them killed.

It's not like I wrote it to come up every battle. I'm guessing, it might be used once every 2 big battles, because of:

1) No rolls that have a differance of 5 or 6 (lets face it the differance of 4 is not that great of odds)

2) There won't be a 'good' target available. "He's Blitzing my E4!! Oh God Forbid!"

Craig, what I mean is this:

A CF verses a crippled CW (the target) and a normal CW comes to intercept the Blitzer.

11 verses 7 needs to get 28.5% (so rounds to a 30%) to force the defender to choose to kill the CW or cripple the uncrippled CW. The CW+crip CW will have to get a 37.5% to cripple the CF. (Not the greatest of chances,but it is not supposed to be with only '1' ship being able to intercept the Blitzer.)

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 03:44 pm: Edit

11 vs 7 goes to small ship combat with a 1 modifier.

That means the CF will get toasted 1/3 of the time, crippled 1/6 of the time and cripples a CW and kills the second CW 1/6 of the time.

I know I wouldn't risk a CF on those kinds of odds.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Your right, I forgot my own rule. B-)

[edit] re: Maulers and Blitzing.

That is not really a problem, as a mauler needs 2 consorts to work (308.43). It will have 1/2 COMPOT, AND, cannot maul.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Yes, but using your chart you get 2 mauler escorts 85% of the time when defending.

By Craig Tenhoff (Cktenhoff) on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Chance to 'blitz'

Roughly Equal Sized Forces
0 EW shift: 1/12 each side
1 EW shift: 1/6 side with shift, 1/36 side without
2 EW shift: 10/36 side with shift, other side 0